Oh, it's Strafe. Always seemed like it was entirely selling its self on nostalgia for other games to me, so I think I'll pass.
STRAFE frustrates me because the presentation and the marketing thing they have going on is fucking top notch, and I dig the art style, I feel like they nailed that 90s look nearly spot on.
But then they fuck it all up by relying on random generation for the level design and then proceed to defend it. It really seems like no one can get a grasp on what made Doom and Quake so good. You see different devs try to just take one aspect from those games, whether it be the monsters, aesthetics, weapons or whatever, when really it was everything coming together on top of some really good level design.
What the hell is with devs as of late being so scared of level design anyway?
[QUOTE=SuperPlamz;50836330]Oh, it's Strafe. Always seemed like it was entirely selling its self on nostalgia for other games to me, so I think I'll pass.[/QUOTE]
Bad marketing doesn't always mean a bad game, but I don't blame you for not being interested since usually indie games that name-drop other games as "inspiration" aren't as good as the games they're inspired by.
[editline]5th August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kegan;50836346]STRAFE frustrates me because the presentation and the marketing thing they have going on is fucking top notch, and I dig the art style, I feel like they nailed that 90s look nearly spot on.
But then they fuck it all up by relying on random generation for the level design and then proceed to defend it. It really seems like no one can get a grasp on what made Doom and Quake so good. You see different devs try to just take one aspect from those games, whether it be the monsters, aesthetics, weapons or whatever, when really it was everything coming together on top of some really good level design.
What the hell it with devs as of late being so scared of level design anyway?[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's so much being scared of level design as it is trying to artificially pad-out the hours of content in the game. If Skyrim, Minecraft, No Man's Sky, hundreds of app games, and other similar popular games have proved anything, it's that people will fall for the "endless/60+ hours of content~" marketing crap and be more likely to buy that than a short game that is arguably much better on the merit of its level design.
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;50836350]I don't think it's so much being scared of level design as it is trying to artificially pad-out the hours of content in the game. If Skyrim, Minecraft, No Man's Sky, hundreds of app games, and other similar popular games have proved anything, it's that people will fall for the "endless/60+ hours of content~" marketing crap and be more likely to buy that than a short game that is arguably much better on the merit of its level design.[/QUOTE]
I wish that trend would die out, I mean if they really wanted to push for a value with their game, they could have provided a level editor and other tools to lengthen the game's lifespan. It worked for Doom and Quake.
[QUOTE=Kegan;50836371]I wish that trend would die out, I mean if they really wanted to push for a value with their game, they could have provided a level editor and other tools to lengthen the game's lifespan. It worked for Doom and Quake.[/QUOTE]
It's much easier to create an rng level creator that sticks prefabs together than it is to create comprehensive 3D level editing tools, for internal use or otherwise.
That's not defending the decision or saying you're wrong; it's just the reality of things. I also wish the trend would die out, but it's easier for indie devs and it (usually) makes them more money. The game market of today is vastly different than it was when DooM and Quake hit the market.
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;50836424]It's much easier to create an rng level creator that sticks prefabs together than it is to create comprehensive 3D level editing tools, for internal use or otherwise.
That's not defending the decision or saying you're wrong; it's just the reality of things. I also wish the trend would die out, but it's easier for indie devs and it (usually) makes them more money. [B]The game market of today is vastly different than it was when DooM and Quake hit the market.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, I know that's just how things are right now, but that doesn't make it any less depressing.
The guy that worked on Devil Daggers seemed to have really nailed the "old-school" visuals, imo.
Here's hoping that he'll work on art for other games.
[QUOTE=Skerion;50836669]Here's hoping that he'll work on art for other games.[/QUOTE]
He has and is and will.
[QUOTE=Kegan;50836346]STRAFE frustrates me because the presentation and the marketing thing they have going on is fucking top notch, and I dig the art style, I feel like they nailed that 90s look nearly spot on.
But then they fuck it all up by relying on random generation for the level design and then proceed to defend it. It really seems like no one can get a grasp on what made Doom and Quake so good. You see different devs try to just take one aspect from those games, whether it be the monsters, aesthetics, weapons or whatever, when really it was everything coming together on top of some really good level design.
What the hell is with devs as of late being so scared of level design anyway?[/QUOTE]
I don't know if that's his motivation to not do level design.
Read the interview. He talks about how at a certain point, he'd had Q3 levels memorized, taking away their replay value for him.
A main goal of his it seems is to not have that limitation.
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;50836424]It's much easier to create an rng level creator that sticks prefabs together than it is to create comprehensive 3D level editing tools, for internal use or otherwise.
That's not defending the decision or saying you're wrong; it's just the reality of things. I also wish the trend would die out, but it's easier for indie devs and it (usually) makes them more money. The game market of today is vastly different than it was when DooM and Quake hit the market.[/QUOTE]
I really doubt it'll work out for this game.
There's no plans for mods, there's no multiplayer, and two of the major features of this game (speed and secrets (as claimed by the website)) are going to be massively diminished by the stupid fucking procedural generation.
I imagine I'll buy it, play it a bit, get bored, and tell people to buy Quake instead because 1.) it's going to be cheaper, 2.) it's a piece of FPS history, and 3.) you can actually speedrun and explore that game because it's not a bunch of prefabs stuck together to form a level.
[editline]a[/editline]
I think they're thinking about this the whole wrong way around. In the article it says "he loved playing Quake 2, but he’d memorized the game" and it uses that as an explanation for the procedural generation. The thing is, procedural generation doesn't create infinite gameplay like it's always advertised. I've heard many Spleunky players complain that eventually you learn the algorithm and levels just start repeating.
Hand-made levels and a map editor would provide a much, much better experience for everyone. The game can then be speedran, secrets can be more than just simple "oh look this is a false wall how neat," and best of all, the game'd most likely have a better longevity from modders doing shit from creating whole new experiences to recreating levels from Quake.
tldr they fucked up by trying to encapsulate Quake in a game where none of the levels or secrets matter because they change every time but still feel the exact same.
If that's his reasoning he could have just tacked on an "infinite runner" game mode and, even better, released modding tools.
[QUOTE=gk99;50836982]I think they're thinking about this the whole wrong way around. In the article it says "he loved playing Quake 2, but he’d memorized the game" and it uses that as an explanation for the procedural generation. The thing is, procedural generation doesn't create infinite gameplay like it's always advertised. I've heard many Spleunky players complain that eventually you learn the algorithm and levels just start repeating.[/QUOTE]
Oh fucking this. Spelunky got almost universally praised, I got the game, kinda wish I didn't. I'm a fan of platformers, even the hard ones, I liked the first Rayman and Super Meat Boy and VVVVVV and Cave Story all that good shit, but Spelunky was just eh. It got so repetitive so fast and I just lost all motivation to get better at it before even beating the second area. Once you memorize the patterns that endlessly repeat only in different order ad nauseum, it's a chore. You can't try certain obstacles over and over again until you beat them because the game keeps spawning different shit, but the shit that you get isn't entirely random either, it's just a [url=http://i.imgur.com/g0vT5ES.png]4x4 grid of prefabs being shuffled around[/url] and it does become obvious rather quickly.
Felt the same way about Nuclear Throne, then I decided action roguelites ain't for me and started avoiding them. FTL was fun, but I think it would be fun even if the space was always the same because of the sheer amount of content and different ways to play. Surely enough, Convoy, a twist on the same formula, uses one static map and is fun all the same.
Yeah kinda rambling right now. Strife - gonna pass. Action roguelite, no interest.
Dunno if its just me, but when I look at the screenshots I don't see "90's FPS game". Looks more like a generic voxel-based indie game.
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