The MOBA genre is getting oversaturated, meanwhile there's long and far between decent RTS games (blizzard doesn't count)
[QUOTE=Van-man;39435623]The MOBA genre is getting oversaturated, meanwhile there's long and far between decent RTS games (blizzard doesn't count)[/QUOTE]
Yup, its kind of a similar scenario to WoW.
Ever since LoL became super super successful everyone wants to cash in on it by making their own version of the game. To be honest with the combination of LoL and DoTA2 which are both free to play and cater to casual and hardcore players, any new releases are going to find it very difficult to get a share of the playerbase.
Meanwhile on the RTS side only a handful of classics are keeping it afloat, with a few new good ones like Company of heroes and Dawn of War.
Thing is, MOBAs aren't just games that come and go, with a 6 hour long single player campaign and shoddy multiplayer. They require commitment to even learn the game in the first place, and then a lot more to unlock champions (LoL), or learn how to chokepoint jungle and such (Dota 2).
You can't just expect there to be 3 MOBA games coming out each month and you certainly can't expect people to play all of them. If the playerbase spreads out, it might be worse for the genre than it not evolving fast enough.
They need to look at where MOBA & DOTA came from, [B]custom games for WC3[/B], and build this map editing functionality into their engines so that people can create custom maps.
If they do this, make it practically identical (yet more powerful) to 'world editor' for WC3, and launch it with a few custom games maps so people know how powerful it is, they will build a dedicated 100,000+ community for the next 12 years at least.
If you don't know how powerful custom game editing in WC3 was, I suggest you take 10 minutes out of your day to find out. It served as the birthplace and incubator for modern tower defence and was so powerful you could re-build 'Monopoly' in it (in such a way that it was practically identical to playing the board game).
The only reason "RTS is dying" is because everyone refuses to make a proper RTS, for example this mix-and-match RTS+MOBA bullshit that obviously didn't work.
Planetary Annihilation looks fucking awesome and I'm looking forward to it, and it would be an absolute godsend if someone at microsoft just said "You know what, let's make a 3D Age of Empires 2, crank everything to 11, give it console compatibility, and ship it. Age of Empires 4." They'd get fucking MILLIONS of dollars if they did something like that.
The RTS genre could benefit a lot from current generation hardware, for tracking more stats on individuals, having massive armies, or even giving you the option to fight as a random soldier down in the battlefield from a 3rd person point of view (not as an overpowered hero, just give a couple buffs to a regular archer and let the player take control until he dies, put him on priority for healer units etc.) but everyone refuses to make a proper RTS, and then declare it dead.
Ensemble nearly perfected RTS with AoE2 and AoM and only small companies have tried to make them better.
RTS died for me when they stopped making games like RoN and AoE.
You don't even see games like Warcraft or BFMEII nowadays.
Possibly the biggest reason you don't get that many RTS' these days is that we've already got a metric ton of good RTS games that delivers very similar experiences.
Total Annihilation
Age of Empires
Empire Earth
Rise of Nations
Warcraft
Starcraft
Command & Conquer
Dune 2000
Warhammer Dawn of War
The Settlers
Stronghold
Anno xxxx
Dungeon Keeper
Startopia
Evil Genius
Populous
Company of Heroes
And probably other games I've never heard of.
We've got so many with lots of small variations, do we really need that many more? Can they offer us that much more? I feel it has to take the path of games like Planetary Annihilation, coming up with very different concepts inside the same genre to really be worth making, otherwise we already have some games we love more and will compare them to, and if they don't beat those games we won't really care.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;39435673]Meanwhile: Everyone ignores Planetary Annihilation.[/QUOTE]
not when it's eventually released and everyone's jaws collide with the floor at mach 5
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;39435829]They need to look at where MOBA & DOTA came from, [B]custom games for WC3[/B], and build this map editing functionality into their engines so that people can create custom maps.
If they do this, make it practically identical (yet more powerful) to 'world editor' for WC3, and launch it with a few custom games maps so people know how powerful it is, they will build a dedicated 100,000+ community for the next 12 years at least.
If you don't know how powerful custom game editing in WC3 was, I suggest you take 10 minutes out of your day to find out. It served as the birthplace and incubator for modern tower defence and was so powerful you could re-build 'Monopoly' in it (in such a way that it was practically identical to playing the board game).[/QUOTE]
If every game has custom map functions that logic becomes false. They're already able to map the fuck out of Starcraft II and Warcraft III.
The game needs to be better than what's already popular in the market and then the argument about modding will be true. A game will not be saved from modding unless it's worth modding in the first place.
Rome 2 anyone?!?! As far as I can tell all the Total War games still have really successful releases, and they're PC only RTS games.
RTS is dying because no one makes them. MOBA is dumb and over saturated.
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;39436678]Rome 2 anyone?!?! As far as I can tell all the Total War games still have really successful releases, and they're PC only RTS games.
RTS is dying because no one makes them. MOBA is dumb and over saturated.[/QUOTE]
Total War games are turn based, with Real Time battles
[QUOTE=PollytheParrot;39437048]Total War games are turn based, with Real Time battles[/QUOTE]
Does anyone actually auto resolve all the battles? The real time part is the best and most engaging part of those games and the turn based part isn't terribly in depth like a 4X game might be.
If you haven't played a RTS called Act of War, I suppose you look it up on steam because it is one of those mostly unknown gems :v:
[QUOTE=Cushie;39435639]
Ever since LoL becam To be honest with the combination of LoL and DoTA2 which are both free to play and [B]cater to casual and hardcore players[/B] [/quote]
Uhhh, no. No they do not. The game itself might, but any hint of catering to casuals is thrown out the window, set on fire, stomped on, shot in the testicles, stabbed, sliced, drawn, quartered, electrocuted, burned alive, poisoned, robbed, mutilated, molested, raped and crushed as soon as you factor in the typical LoL player. I'm not exaggerating here either. I'm about as casual as they get, I couldn't care less about winning or KDR or anyting like that I just want to explode things and laugh, and the asshole players in LoL ruined the entire genre for me forever. I could learn how to play, but I have no interest in doing so because LoL is full of dicks to whom their own word is absolutely worthless, and everything I've read says that LoL players are some of the most mild MOBA players in existence. I suppose I could try DOTA 2, but I have no interest in doing so since I already know what I'm going to find: A learning curve so steep you need rock climbing gear to get over it, and the only thing waiting on the other side are assholes. No thanks.
So no. They don't cater to casuals. If they did I wouldn't have been turned off of the entire genre in five minutes flat. You have to be pretty hardcore about winning if you want to last very long in MOBAs.
[QUOTE=latin_geek;39436066]
Age of Empires 4." They'd get fucking MILLIONS of dollars if they did something like that.
[/QUOTE]
Not if they don't understand (like last time) what made Age of Empires 2 a fun game.
Fuck MOBAs, I want more RTS games.
They're entirely fucking different. Don't try and tell me my itch for a GOOD RTS is going to be scratched by the evolution of MOBAs.
SupCom:FA is the last good RTS I've played.
It's depressing.
Homeworld 3.
I can tell you it would revive the RTS genre.
[QUOTE=Van-man;39440165]SupCom:FA is the last good RTS I've played.
It's depressing.[/QUOTE]
You should try Wargame: European Escalation!
I see it more as MOBA needs to die so that RTS can evolve.
We need more people and devs to play/Make more traditional styled RTS games like AOE, COH and DOW
[QUOTE=Maestro Fenix;39447078]Homeworld 3.
I can tell you it would revive the RTS genre.[/QUOTE]
I'd buy the shit out of it.
What's the game shown in the very first image?
[t]http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/13/jan/soda1.jpg[/t]
Yeah I wouldn't call mobas the 'high school sweetheart' of rts.
More like the angsty teenage son.
[QUOTE=DarkMonkey;39448523]Yeah I wouldn't call mobas the 'high school sweetheart' of rts.
More like the angsty teenage son.[/QUOTE]
To be honest I'd consider MOBA's more the angsty teenage son of an ARPG. Sure they first showed up in RTS game editors, but that's because they're flexible. The gamestyle really is completely dissimilar.
Also the RTS genre is dying? It's been dying for the past decade and half and still is alive in similar counts.
[QUOTE=Van-man;39440165]SupCom:FA is the last good RTS I've played.
It's depressing.[/QUOTE]
I'd say the best RTS games which are at least semi modern these days are.
Cnc series (not counting cnc4) as virtually every game from it is playable and pretty fun to play - generals, RA, tibsun
Supcom:FA
Starcraft 2
Dow: DarkCrusade
The thing is, that RTS games, like all MP games are fairly niche and there can only ever be so many kings at the top even for mainstream games. With the FPS the crown is on CoD and BF, with MOBA's it's LoL and Dota2 (and DOta1 in a lot of countries) with MMOs it's generally WoW and GW2 and everyone else just straggles around.
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;39435829]They need to look at where MOBA & DOTA came from, [B]custom games for WC3[/B], and build this map editing functionality into their engines so that people can create custom maps.
If they do this, make it practically identical (yet more powerful) to 'world editor' for WC3, and launch it with a few custom games maps so people know how powerful it is, they will build a dedicated 100,000+ community for the next 12 years at least.
If you don't know how powerful custom game editing in WC3 was, I suggest you take 10 minutes out of your day to find out. It served as the birthplace and incubator for modern tower defence and was so powerful you could re-build 'Monopoly' in it (in such a way that it was practically identical to playing the board game).[/QUOTE]
Eh the original dota actually is more of a spinoff of a number of starcraft 1 custom maps.
That said the actual wc3 editor is not that powerfull - games with full lua or scar access are actually stronger. But the benefit of the editor is, that it's much easier to get into.
developers are too scared to release modding tools because they think people won't buy their next shitty game or dlc (think battlefield 3) if people can just get 10 times as much as content for free from a mod
it's sad, really
[QUOTE=The mouse;39448320]I see it more as MOBA needs to die so that RTS can evolve.
We need more people and devs to play/Make more traditional styled RTS games like AOE, [B]COH [/B]and [B]DOW[/B][/QUOTE]
DoW 2 felt like a 40k skin on CoH. Now Relic is finishing CoH 2. Relic isn't really advancing the genre at all.
I really want another supreme commander not the shitty supreme commander 2
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