The reason there is only one girl in my department at work (enterprise server admin) is because there was only one girl in my classes (system administrator associates degree). As to why there arent many girls going to tech school, I couldnt say.
Coincidentally in both my cases, its the same girl. Small world and all that.
[QUOTE=Birdman101;52546097]The reason there is only one girl in my department at work (enterprise server admin) is because there was only one girl in my classes (system administrator associates degree). As to why there arent many girls going to tech school, I couldnt say.
Coincidentally in both my cases, its the same girl. Small world and all that.[/QUOTE]
I'm going to say it has something to do with how anti-woman "nerd culture" and the like is.
When I had a girlfriend she was wearing a Zelda shirt and went into a comic store to get me a present and got harassed by some dudes who were asking her questions to try and prove she doesn't actually like the series or something I guess, I can see the same happening about computers or tech in general and I can see people being turned off the industry as a whole from interactions like that.
[QUOTE=The golden;52546168]I can't back this up as it's anecdotal but I have heard stories of the IT industry being very sexist in general.
So it makes sense that they wouldn't want to enter it.[/QUOTE]
It is just as much as any other place is.
[QUOTE=The golden;52546168]I can't back this up as it's anecdotal but I have heard stories of the IT industry being very sexist in general.
So it makes sense that they wouldn't want to enter it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, when people like you keep spreading rumours you know nothing about like that it would put women off of the IT industry.
In my experience people have been nothing but supportive of women entering the IT industry.
[editline]7th August 2017[/editline]
Also, I'd like to point out the shitty reporting on the BBC's part here. He isn't "anti-diversity" at all. I disagree with a fair amount of what he says but it's pretty hilarious to see his point of "If they disagree with you they just shut you down and slander you." be proven right, over and over.
I read his thing. At one point he says the wage gap is false (its not, its just very often misrepresented) and at another pointt he directly compares liberalism to communism (?).
I agree with his idea of having a more open discussion about these things, but I question his neutrality on some of these issues, or at the very least some of the logic he brings up.
Gender inequality is a really complex issue and I sense that he oversimplifies various aspects of it.
[QUOTE=The golden;52546004]Why is this stupid argument always parroted by men? (Usually while they're in positions of power or solid job security.)
Like fuck off. If you're going to be disgustingly sexist then at least be honest about yourself.[/QUOTE]
His argument, what I think is the most misrepresented in media talking about this, was that women were generally statistically less likely to become interested in IT and tech related stuff then men. He didnt imply that they were worse at them at all, once they had already gotten into them.
But why read the source material when you can just read one line from the BBC article and become instantly outraged?
[QUOTE=da space core;52546752]I read his thing. At one point he says the wage gap is false (its not, its just very often misrepresented) .[/QUOTE]
Do you have a source to back that up? As far as I know, pay discrimination based on gender is illegal in most western countries.
[QUOTE=Taishu;52547552]Do you have a source to back that up? As far as I know, pay discrimination based on gender is illegal in most western countries.[/QUOTE]
remember, I said that the wage gap statistic is misrepresented. If you were to say that if a man and a woman work the exact same job, the woman makes only 80% as the man, that would be incorrect, for the reasons you stated.
[URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/13/upshot/the-gender-pay-gap-is-largely-because-of-motherhood.html"]according this source[/URL] (which also link to studies and statistics if you want to read those directly), we see a more convoluted picture.
On average overall, women do make less than men because a lot of women, particularly when married, stay at home to take care of the house and of children. Maternal leave, as well as raising children often means that a lot of women stay at home instead of at work, or they take less intensive tasks, which an pay less.
Thats not to say that sexism has an absolute zero role in all this though. Women are often expected by employers to become mothers (even if individual women do not have any plans for it), and [URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/upshot/a-child-helps-your-career-if-youre-a-man.html"]we see that reflected in the wage[/URL] Women are also less likely to receive promotions than men, though whether this is again because of employer bias or because women tend to be less assertive (sociatal values, etc) is less clear.
so, when you take the wages of all men and compare them with women, you get this 80 cents per dollar statistic. And though the reasons are quite complex (and to be frank, I barely touched much upon them, there is a [I]lot[/I] of reading if you are interested in this topic), we unfortunately see this issue often simplified by the media as "a women makes 20 cents less per dollar than men do in the workforce" which is not really how this works.
This misrepresentation is how this "wage gap is a myth" meme started, but to say that the wage gap is entirely false is also untrue and ignoring of the data, which is why when this google guy said that the wage gap is a myth, I began questioning how much he knows about these subjects, and also why that despite all that, I do agree with his idea of having more open discussions about these topics, because they are often misunderstood.
As for what can be done about the wage gap? Well, one of the clearest things we can do to reduce it is actually to give fathers paternal leave, to even out with the maternal leave that mothers get as well. But the bigger thing that needs to be done is that it must become more acceptable for women to become the dominant "bread maker" and for men to be the "stay at home dad"
The IT college I'm in has about 300-400 students doing programming per schoolyear, and about 6 on average of them are women.
That aside. I don't know how it's like in companies. What I've noticed from girls in general is that they often say they don't understand, even in the senior years, but instead of studying, they mooch off of others while acting all cutesy, you can sorta see the difference in small signals. That's one of the examples that makes me feel like there are some differences between men and women in terms of IT.
Again, that's my opinion based off what I experienced. People might have experienced something completely different. If I meet women in high IT positions, I'm not gonna be sexist. I might be a bit careful, however.
There's only a few women in my course but they know their stuff. I never noticed a different in the sexes in this area.
[QUOTE=da space core;52547651]remember, I said that the wage gap statistic is misrepresented. If you were to say that if a man and a woman work the exact same job, the woman makes only 80% as the man, that would be incorrect, for the reasons you stated.[/QUOTE]
But then it isn't wage gap, and it isn't "misrepresented", it is false, or a myth rather.
What you are talking about is a gap in earnings, which is something else entirely.
[QUOTE=da space core;52547651]Thats not to say that sexism has an absolute zero role in all this though. Women are often expected by employers to become mothers (even if individual women do not have any plans for it), and [URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/upshot/a-child-helps-your-career-if-youre-a-man.html"]we see that reflected in the wage[/URL] Women are also less likely to receive promotions than men, though whether this is again because of employer bias or because women tend to be less assertive (sociatal values, etc) is less clear.[/QUOTE]
I don't know if any studies exist that conclusively proves why women are less assertive when it comes to raises, or what connection it may have to their gender. If you have any feel free to post them, otherwise it's just pure speculation.
[QUOTE=da space core;52547651]so, when you take the wages of all men and compare them with women, you get this 80 cents per dollar statistic. And though the reasons are quite complex (and to be frank, I barely touched much upon them, there is a [I]lot[/I] of reading if you are interested in this topic), we unfortunately see this issue often simplified by the media as "a women makes 20 cents less per dollar than men do in the workforce" which is not really how this works.
This misrepresentation is how this "wage gap is a myth" meme started, but to say that the wage gap is entirely false is also untrue and ignoring of the data, which is why when this google guy said that the wage gap is a myth, I began questioning how much he knows about these subjects, and also why that despite all that, I do agree with his idea of having more open discussions about these topics, because they are often misunderstood.[/QUOTE]
Again, the wage gap [B]is[/B] a myth. Not only is it illegal to pay women less for the same amount of work, it doesn't make sense, in the sense, that if companies could save money by hiring women instead, they would do just that.
Men do [B]earn[/B] more than women overall, but that isn't what the author is arguing against.
So he is right on this point at least, and you should grant him that, and maybe reread the paper with that in mind.
[QUOTE=da space core;52547651]As for what can be done about the wage gap? Well, one of the clearest things we can do to reduce it is actually to give fathers paternal leave, to even out with the maternal leave that mothers get as well. But the bigger thing that needs to be done is that it must become more acceptable for women to become the dominant "bread maker" and for men to be the "stay at home dad"[/QUOTE]
While I could agree with you on the paternal leave, I think women should be able to/and are able to make this decision themselves. The fact that the majority of women decide not to become the main earner in the household, is their own decision to make, and right now there is nothing keeping them from making this decision. I don't know what exactly you would do to remedy this "issue", or even if it is an issue to begin with.
[QUOTE=Taishu;52548504]But then it isn't wage gap, and it isn't "misrepresented", it is false, or a myth rather.
What you are talking about is a gap in earnings, which is something else entirely.[/QUOTE]
When I debate on facepunch (and in general), I take on a more general tone so I can reach out to more people. If I were to outright say "The wage gap isnt real" quite a few people will (unfortunately) make some unfair assumptions about me and ignore the rest of what I say, I find it is more effective to approach this topic as "the wage gap is misrepresented" because more people are willing to listen.
But yes, the most literal, semantically correct term to use here is "gap in earnings."
[QUOTE=Taishu;52548504]
I don't know if any studies exist that conclusively proves why women are less assertive when it comes to raises, or what connection it may have to their gender. If you have any feel free to post them, otherwise it's just pure speculation.[/QUOTE]
I recall reading some studies a while back but even they didnt claim any concrete proof that they had an exact cause for the gaps we see in these earnings. All we know is that there is a gap in these scenarios, so there is, as you say, speculation as to why it exists.
[QUOTE=Taishu;52548504]
Again, the wage gap [B]is[/B] a myth. Not only is it illegal to pay women less for the same amount of work, it doesn't make sense, in the sense, that if companies could save money by hiring women instead, they would do just that.
Men do [B]earn[/B] more than women overall, but that isn't what the author is arguing against.
So he is right on this point at least, and you should grant him that, and maybe reread the paper with that in mind.
[/QUOTE]
I addressed your first points above, but as for the author himself, this is a topic that needs back and forth discussion for me to firmly understand his position. I have to make too many assumptions when I read a paper like this to know what the author is thinking, an open discussion is needed. Thats my point of view on this.
[QUOTE=Taishu;52548504]
While I could agree with you on the paternal leave, I think women should be able to/and are able to make this decision themselves. The fact that the majority of women decide not to become the main earner in the household, is their own decision to make, and right now there is nothing keeping them from making this decision. I don't know what exactly you would do to remedy this "issue", or even if it is an issue to begin with.[/QUOTE]
You are right that women, legally, have the right to work, equal pay, etc, that there are laws against gender discrimination in the workplace and so on.
I think it would be better to describe this "gap in earnings" as a societal issue rather than a legal one. Now, I do believe that it is possible for business and legal institutions to help resolve this (as long as they proceed thoughtfully and carefully), [URL="http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/29/breadwinner-moms/"]the bulk of the issue falls on public perception on who should work[/URL]
[IMG]http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/05/SDT-2013-05-breadwinner-moms-1-3.png[/IMG]
and this is really the crux of my argument. Although declining in recent years, there still is a large public perception that men should be the ones to go out and work while the women stay home to take care of the house and children. And I do believe that it is fair to say, especially when paired with the studies I have posted previously, that there is some connection between what the general public believes women should do and and this gap in earnings.
[QUOTE=da space core;52549558]When I debate on facepunch (and in general), I take on a more general tone so I can reach out to more people. If I were to outright say "The wage gap isnt real" quite a few people will (unfortunately) make some unfair assumptions about me and ignore the rest of what I say, I find it is more effective to approach this topic as "the wage gap is misrepresented" because more people are willing to listen.
But yes, the most literal, semantically correct term to use here is "gap in earnings."[/QUOTE]
Well, I think it's fairly important that we use the correct term in this case, as this misunderstanding created the foundation of the wage gap myth. And even if your intentions are good, calling it a misrepresentation instead of an outright falsehood, will only perpetuate this lie further. If people were able to differentiate the two concepts (wage =/= overall earnings) this problem wouldn't exist
[QUOTE=da space core;52549558]I recall reading some studies a while back but even they didnt claim any concrete proof that they had an exact cause for the gaps we see in these earnings. All we know is that there is a gap in these scenarios, so there is, as you say, speculation as to why it exists.[/QUOTE]
Well, I think we know why it exists, men tend to go for higher paying jobs and generally work more than women.
What we don't know for certain (or I'm at least unsure) what the motives for women are for making these decisions.
[QUOTE=da space core;52549558]I addressed your first points above, but as for the author himself, this is a topic that needs back and forth discussion for me to firmly understand his position. I have to make too many assumptions when I read a paper like this to know what the author is thinking, an open discussion is needed. Thats my point of view on this.[/QUOTE]
Right, I'm only saying that your assertion that he was wrong about the wage gap was false, and that you should at least give him that.
[QUOTE=da space core;52549558]You are right that women, legally, have the right to work, equal pay, etc, that there are laws against gender discrimination in the workplace and so on.
I think it would be better to describe this "gap in earnings" as a societal issue rather than a legal one. Now, I do believe that it is possible for business and legal institutions to help resolve this (as long as they proceed thoughtfully and carefully), [URL="http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/29/breadwinner-moms/"]the bulk of the issue falls on public perception on who should work[/URL]
and this is really the crux of my argument. Although declining in recent years, there still is a large public perception that men should be the ones to go out and work while the women stay home to take care of the house and children. And I do believe that it is fair to say, especially when paired with the studies I have posted previously, that there is some connection between what the general public believes women should do and and this gap in earnings.[/QUOTE]
Again, this perception only exists because women choose to have it exist. There's literally nothing stopping them from making this decision, whether you view it from a legal, social or economic perspective, and I'm also unsure what you would propose to do in order to fix this "issue" politically.
Couldn't it be just as likely a biological predisposition, hard-wired into our brains, as women are more valuable from an evolutionary perspective, plus they are physically weaker than men. If this is the case, again how would you solve this problem, and is it even a problem to begin with?
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
