Carmack takes aim at "snooty" indies, Condemns Call of Duty bashing - Polidicks

[quote] id Software co-founder John Carmack has attacked "snooty" independent developers who criticise FPS developers for being too conservative. Speaking in an interview with [URL="http://www.industrygamers.com/news/doom-creator-fires-back-at-devs-with-snooty-attitude/"]IndustryGamers[/URL], Carmack argued that a developer's job is to make games that people love and are willing to open their wallets for, not games that push boundaries. "I'm actually happy Rage is a little bit different in terms of feeling and tone. It's not just, 'Here's your squad mates'," he explained before saying his piece. "But that's still a proven formula that people like, and it's a mistake to [discount that]. As long as people are buying it, it means they're enjoying it. If they buy the next Call of Duty, it's because they loved the last one and they want more of it. "So I am pretty down on people who take the sort of creative auteurs' perspective," he continued. "It's like 'Oh, we"re not being creative.' But we're creating value for people - that's our job! "It's not to do something that nobody's ever seen before. It's to do something that people love so much they're willing to give us money for. "So I do get pretty down on people that - you see some of the indie developers that really take a snooty attitude about this. It's almost as if it's popular, it's not good. And that's just not true." Rage, id's latest effort and its first new IP since Quake launched in 1996, is due out on PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 in October. [/quote] [url]http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-07-18-doom-creator-takes-aim-at-snooty-indies[/url]

[QUOTE=Carmack;31207518]t's almost as if it's popular, it's not good. And that's just not true[/QUOTE] No, it's because it's shit, therefore it isn't good. For once, blow it out your ass Carmack.

So Transformers 2 is a good movie?

He is right though. A lot of people like how Call of Duty games play, you can't blame a person for wanting more of what they enjoy. That is the point of videogames, to entertain. He isn't saying that Call of Duty is good, he is saying that it's a subjective thing, there is no objective good game.

[QUOTE=Psyke89;31207609]He is right though. A lot of people like how Call of Duty games play, you can't blame a person for wanting more of what they enjoy. That is the point of videogames, to entertain.[/QUOTE] True, but that ends up diverting funds and effort away from devs who want to make something new. You can't just recycle the same formula all the time; they overstay their welcome after too many sequels are made. It sounds to me like he is denouncing innovation.

In fairness there's nothing really wrong with the Call of Duty games, they deliver pretty awesome (although admittedly short) campaign with huge set pieces with a pretty damn engaging and fairly long lasting multiplayer (~24 hours play to reach top rank). They pack alot more content in multiplayer than most games. I think alot of the hate is somewhat misguided, the games are solid and innovate no less than any other shooter and should really be aimed at odd business practice like the expensive DLC packs (which are entirely optional you know, as is buying the game) and releasing the games every year. A couple of years ago it was popular to hate EA but they've got rid of their stigma and it's been passed to Activision and CoD.

[QUOTE=Doozle;31207643]A couple of years ago it was popular to hate EA but they've got rid of their stigma and it's been passed to Activision and CoD.[/QUOTE] oh don't worry, EA is pushing into new frontiers of dickishness with Origin pretty soon we'll be spoilt for choice in who we want to hate.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;31207629]True, but that ends up diverting funds and effort away from devs who want to make something new. You can't just recycle the same formula all the time; they overstay their welcome after too many sequels are made. It sounds to me like he is denouncing innovation.[/QUOTE] Effort, maybe. Funds, hardly. You can't diverte funds if you are gaining the triple (estimate), you are earning not putting them into a black hole. Sure it can overstay it's welcome, but not at this point people will still line up to buy MW3 and as much as some hate it, people are lining up because they do enjoy it. He isn't denoucing inovation, he's simply stating that there is nothing wrong with making something that people enjoy.

[QUOTE=Psyke89;31207739]He isn't denoucing inovation, he's simply stating that there is nothing wrong with making something that people enjoy.[/QUOTE] [quote]"So I am pretty down on people who take the sort of creative auteurs' perspective," he continued. "It's like 'Oh, we"re not being creative.' But we're creating value for people - that's our job! [/quote] no, he pretty much is disapproving of people trying to bring something fresh to the table

[QUOTE=]Speaking in an interview with IndustryGamers, Carmack argued that a developer's job is to make games that people love and are willing to open their wallets for, not games that push boundaries.[/QUOTE] ...and this is the problem with the current gaming industry. No one is willing to take risks and push boundaries for new and exciting concepts or mechanics because they have the risk of not making a boatload of money because their game is not a COD clone. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Psyke89;31207739]Effort, maybe. Funds, hardly. You can't diverte funds if you are gaining the triple (estimate), you are earning not putting them into a black hole. Sure it can overstay it's welcome, but not at this point people will still line up to buy MW3 and as much as some hate it, people are lining up because they do enjoy it. He isn't denoucing inovation, he's simply stating that there is nothing wrong with making something that people enjoy.[/QUOTE] And that's something the game industry should not be doing. The game industry is arguably the most flexible and agile market out there. Pushing new concepts and ideas should be expected from a new game. Just because people like what they have does not mean you should aim to please just that and nothing more. Think of it this way, if Henry Ford had aimed to please the people and give them what they were already happy with, we would never have the Model T.

Conservative FPS developers would stay on the PC actually And that's sort of the reason why many PC gamers get massive puppy eyes when [del]they[/del] we see Battlefield 3.

This is really stupid coming from Carmack, he is credited for doing the completely damn opposite, he revolutionized games and first person shooters as we know them today. Why? because he did something different and not what everyone else was doing. Every new game he released had something drastically different, if it was technology, new effects, gameplay, multiplayer, he made peoples jaw drop from every game ID has made with what he put in there. Hell he has even taken forever to release games because of whatever new thing or new engine or new upgrade to an engine he wanted to make. Saying CoD is fine makes no sense considering what he has done and how he always wants/does push the industry forward with something he makes. About the snooty indie companies, atleast they have balls to try something new and innovative like you have done all those years ago instead of trying to make as much money as possible copying others. And didn't he do that like a month ago, calling Rage a fine steak while all other games were crap? Now I'm worried about buying Rage if he has taken this complete opposite stance which is what made ID in the first place, so whats going to happen now? is he going to take the CoD route and just make every new game based on ID Tech 5 and never make a new one or change like CoD has stuck with a modified Quake engine?

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;31207767]no, he pretty much is disapproving of people trying to bring something fresh to the table[/QUOTE] No, he's simply stating that developers who want use old concepts/formulas should not be looked down uppon just because it's the cool thing to do. [QUOTE=Foda;31207941]And that's something the game industry should not be doing. The game industry is arguably the most flexible and agile market out there. Pushing new concepts and ideas should be expected from a new game. Just because people like what they have does not mean you should aim to please just that and nothing more. Think of it this way, if Henry Ford had aimed to please the people and give them what they were already happy with, we would never have the Model T.[/QUOTE] Exactly, it's not only the most flexible and agile, but it is another thing...vast. There is alot of space in the market for CoD 15 and Innovative Game. Carmack is simply stating the it's stupid to hate CoD 15 simply because of it's existance, you aren't forced to get CoD.

If there's no innovation to anything it eventually stagnates and people get tired of the same shit so they decide not to do play it anymore because it's no longer enjoyable and move onto something new and exciting. Fuck off Carmack, not that you're condemning CoD bashing, but because you're condemning Innovation to the FPS franchise that it needs.

John Carmack is a really smart guy, I'm not surprised he said this. From a business standpoint, releasing the same shit is good because they know people will buy it.

Not to mention Call of Duty elite, that shit is smart! like taking pay for a Glass of water from your own tap.

Innovation is important, but so is giving people what they want. Things like CoD should serve as inspiration to others to demonstrate a new, even better product that people will love if they truly dislike what the game is doing to the FPS genre.

CoD games are all the same these days.

[QUOTE=Foda;31207941]...and this is the problem with the current gaming industry. No one is willing to take risks and push boundaries for new and exciting concepts or mechanics because they have the risk of not making a boatload of money because their game is not a COD clone. [/QUOTE] It's a business. If they don't go for what guarantees them the most cash, they're a pretty shit business. They found that people enjoyed CoD4, and they've been modeling the games after that ever since, and I'll be damned if it isn't work phenomenally.

This is how I look at it, a lot of people bitch about oh this game needs changed and when it does get a change the fanbase freaks out and acts like assholes. You can't really win. Let CoD be CoD, it works for that series. At the same time someone else needs to come up with a decent FPS that delivers a different type of experience. I mean look at halo, it has stayed the same sense the first one gameplay wise. It is popular and I hardly see it bashed anymore. A game is a game, let people who enjoy it play it and if you don't like it then don't play it. There are hundreds of other titles out there to try.

[QUOTE=evilweazel;31208526]It's a business. If they don't go for what guarantees them the most cash, they're a pretty shit business. They found that people enjoyed CoD4, and they've been modeling the games after that ever since, and I'll be damned if it isn't work phenomenally.[/QUOTE] And while they've been doing that, DICE has been working Battlefield 3 which is gonna leave Call of Duty in the dust. I bet now they're wishing they spent those years innovating the genre and exploring new technologies and aspects of gaming so they could compete with BF3 instead of just being stuck in the same rut year after year. When have you ever seen a car company come up with a car and just go "Yeah, that's alright we'll stick with that", and then not go bankrupt?

BF3 is gonna be the new kid on the block that will serve.

You guys should really reconsider, if everyone actually DOES like battlefield 3 and it does leave CoD in the dust, it will have some bad side-effects. Battlefield 3 will become the next cool kid play thing all the 5th graders will flood. Afterwards, other companies will pick up on its success, and will take the idea, copy it, and release a bunch of clones. Then, when BF3 runs its course kiddies will demand sequels so they can play it more and 360 no-scope scrubs, thus COD v2 is born.

[QUOTE=Dr Magnusson;31209212]And while they've been doing that, DICE has been working Battlefield 3 which is gonna leave Call of Duty in the dust.[/QUOTE] I honestly doubt that. CoD has more brand loyalty among consoles and higher sales. Black Ops has about 18 million in unit sales. BC2 is lingering around 6 million.

[QUOTE=ntzu;31209338]You guys should really reconsider, if everyone actually DOES like battlefield 3 and it does leave CoD in the dust, it will have some bad side-effects. Battlefield 3 will become the next cool kid play thing all the 5th graders will flood. Afterwards, other companies will pick up on its success, and will take the idea, copy it, and release a bunch of clones. Then, when BF3 runs its course kiddies will demand sequels so they can play it more and 360 no-scope scrubs, thus COD v2 is born.[/QUOTE] I kinda doubt that'll happen honestly. CoD has brand loyalty, especially on the consoles, so the '360 noscope' kiddies will just hang around there, and hopefully even if it does happen - DICE will have some taste and not churn out sequels.

[QUOTE=Juggernog;31209558]DICE will have some taste and not churn out sequels.[/QUOTE] Then EA fires half of DICE's staff and replaces them with a bunch of loyal goons and tells them to get cracking on BF4.

I think EA is trying too hard to make Battlefield a CoD/competition killer, instead of focusing on making a 100% solid game, tbqh.

it's hilarious how FPers are so adamant about calling people who like alternative music, art and fashion "hipsters" but they have the exact same attitude when it comes to video games

I liked 4 and WaW but then they broke the multiplayer with all the exploitable perks and killstreaks plus the ripoff map packs. [editline]19th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Reimu;31209684]I think EA is trying too hard to make Battlefield a CoD/competition killer, instead of focusing on making a 100% solid game, tbqh.[/QUOTE] I think if anything that it will help them make a 100% solid game because that's the only way you can compete with such a popular game.

[QUOTE=Generous Feller;31209827] I think if anything that it will help them make a 100% solid game because that's the only way you can compete with such a popular game.[/QUOTE] The problem is, instead of trying to create something new and innovative (or even retro), they focus too much on trying to be a good competitor to CoD instead of focusing on things fans really honestly want. No mod support, for instance, is a huge dealbreaker to a lot of people. No current Steam support is another.