[quote]His [Let's Player that's doing a pacifist run] conscience isn’t entirely clear, however, since he’s regularly let robots, turrets and the like do the dirty work necessary to keep that counter at 0.
[ensuing praise about how Fallout's capable of more than their devs intended due to smart community members][/quote]
I'd hardly call that a zero-kill run.
[QUOTE=Marik Bentusi;49411899]I'd hardly call that a zero-kill run.[/QUOTE]
It technically counts, but methods like that are mostly used for action games, not RPGs.
NV on the other hand offers it as an actual gameplay option. You don't often have to use ridiculous bugs and tricks (or companions) to beat the game without killing anyone. Only problem is that trying to do that locks you out of several side-quests and 2 of the MQ-Factions.
[QUOTE=cdr248;49411935]It technically counts, but methods like that are mostly used for action games, not RPGs.
NV on the other hand offers it as an actual gameplay option. You don't often have to use ridiculous bugs and tricks (or companions) to beat the game without killing anyone. Only problem is that trying to do that locks you out of several side-quests and 2 of the MQ-Factions.[/QUOTE]
You can't finish NV without killing anyone. You either have to bomb the Brotherhood for House or kill House.
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;49411952]You can't finish NV without killing anyone. You either have to bomb the Brotherhood for House or kill House.[/QUOTE]
You don't have to kill House, you can disable his cerebral network so he doesn't have control over the Strip anymore but keep life support on so he's still alive.
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;49411952]You can't finish NV without killing anyone. You either have to bomb the Brotherhood for House or kill House.[/QUOTE]
No you can leave House alive but without any control and in a vegetative state (iirc).
Worse than dying, but still not murder.
[QUOTE=cdr248;49411935]It technically counts, but methods like that are mostly used for action games, not RPGs.
[/QUOTE]
Calling FO4 an RPG is a long godamn stretch.
Fallout 4 was a complete pile of shit compared to any of the other fallout games, sure they improved the gunplay, the graphics and its a lot less crashy. But they completely removed all RPG aspects of the game, theres basically vendors and then things you go kill, nothing more at all. Weapon and armor customization? thanks too bad you removed everything else about the game. Biggest waste of money I've ever spent.
[QUOTE=kenji;49413604]Calling FO4 an RPG is a long godamn stretch.[/QUOTE]
And here we go!
[QUOTE=SnakApathy94;49413630]Fallout 4 was a complete pile of shit compared to any of the other fallout games, sure they improved the gunplay, the graphics and its a lot less crashy. But they completely removed all RPG aspects of the game, theres basically vendors and then things you go kill, nothing more at all. Weapon and armor customization? thanks too bad you removed everything else about the game. Biggest waste of money I've ever spent.[/QUOTE]
Yey! Lets start this shit here!
[QUOTE=kenji;49413604]Calling FO4 an RPG is a long godamn stretch.[/QUOTE]
It's an RPG, just as much as stalker games are RPGs.
They both are pretty much "stalker! go fetch vodka and kill the zombie." when it comes to quest depth, with a lot of lore in conversations and things littered about, but not much real choice as to what you do, other than glorified pick a color/end slide.
Still fun though, and I'm looking forwards to when people mod in SIGs in FO4.
[QUOTE=Glent;49411958]You don't have to kill House, you can disable his cerebral network so he doesn't have control over the Strip anymore but keep life support on so he's still alive.[/QUOTE]
Actually, doesn't he claim that he'll die because you exposed him?
[quote]{rasping, wheezing voice, like you have emphysema} No... ruined everything... exposed... germs... a year of... life, if... at most... [/quote]
You don't outright kill him, but you are pretty much directly responsible for his death if you do this.
[QUOTE=Lizzrd;49415280]It's an RPG, just as much as stalker games are RPGs.
They both are pretty much "stalker! go fetch vodka and kill the zombie." when it comes to quest depth, with a lot of lore in conversations and things littered about, but not much real choice as to what you do, other than glorified pick a color/end slide.
Still fun though, and I'm looking forwards to when people mod in SIGs in FO4.[/QUOTE]
i'll be honest fo4 reminded me more often of stalker than it ever did of any of the other fallout games.
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49411982]Being able to spare the BoS is actually a piece of cut content of New Vegas that was already fully voiced and such. [URL="http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/37729/?"]This mod[/URL] restores that the feature, and you are able to spare them if you have an accepted reputation with the BoS and a speech skill of 80 once House brings it up in the main quest. I highly recommend this mod to anyone since it's pretty much restored game content rather than a remake or something.[/QUOTE]
I remember reading that you could still spare the BoS (on consoles, at least) but a lot of the time the game just bugs out and won't let you convince House to not get rid of them.
Either way, I spent quite a bit of time not playing the game because I didn't wanna go through with it :/
[QUOTE=cdr248;49411935]Only problem is that trying to do that locks you out of several side-quests and 2 of the MQ-Factions.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how that's a problem. If you're going to limit yourself so severely of course you're not going to be able to complete every quest. There are multiple quests that are just assassinations, the only option there is to do it or not do it.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;49417633]Actually, doesn't he claim that he'll die because you exposed him?
You don't outright kill him, but you are pretty much directly responsible for his death if you do this.[/QUOTE]
You have no way of knowing that he'll die from it before you do it and he survives the events of the game, so it counts in my book.
[QUOTE=kenji;49413604]Calling FO4 an RPG is a long godamn stretch.[/QUOTE]
At this point, Fallout is just a shooter with character progression.
[QUOTE=cdr248;49411935]It technically counts, but methods like that are mostly used for action games, not RPGs.
NV on the other hand offers it as an actual gameplay option. You don't often have to use ridiculous bugs and tricks (or companions) to beat the game without killing anyone. Only problem is that trying to do that locks you out of several side-quests and 2 of the MQ-Factions.[/QUOTE]
Skipping as much side content as possible and purposefully culling chunks of content out of the game doesn't really count as a pacifist option. New Vegas is still built around having to shoot things, even if the quests are usually written to allow some form of non-violent outcome.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49418316]I don't see how that's a problem. If you're going to limit yourself so severely of course you're not going to be able to complete every quest. There are multiple quests that are just assassinations, the only option there is to do it or not do it.[/QUOTE]
Not much of a problem for side quests as it is for the main quest. It'd be neat if you had options to get through House and Legion without needing to [sp]take out the BoS[/sp]
A minor complaint but i still thought it was worth mentioning
[editline]1st January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49418750]Skipping as much side content as possible and purposefully culling chunks of content out of the game doesn't really count as a pacifist option. New Vegas is still built around having to shoot things, even if the quests are usually written to allow some form of non-violent outcome.[/QUOTE]
Fully-pacifist options are really difficult from a design standpoint and tbh I don't hold it against any game that doesn't attempt it. I always saw them more as an attempt to give the player more options by allowing you to choose who you want to spare on a case-by-case basis. And NV does a pretty damn good job of doing this, a large majority of the content can be completed without killing through pure game knowledge as opposed to hacky methods. It's not perfect though, as I mentioned, the House and Caesar lines do require you to kill. However there's nothing stopping you from jumping ship and going Independent. It's not ideal, but you're not stuck in a questline if you find out you gotta kill someone. And a quick correction: You don't get locked out of the majority of side content, in fact you can theoretically do 75 of all 82 quests in the game.
Fully-pacifist runs are far too difficult to design and are more of a challenge to dedicated players, like speedrunning. It's unrealistic to expect them to design a game where pacifism is not only viable, but also fun and believable. NV does allow most of its content to be completed without killing anyone, but I see it more as the devs giving the players the option to sway the story in the way that they want it to go. For that, I think it's a step in the right direction.
Unless a game is actually fully built around pacifism (see Undertale) it's neither easy nor a good idea to include it in your game.
New Vegas already has the premise of being able to pick whatever side you want and being able to kill anyone at any given time (something not a lot of RPGs allow), so implementing true pacifist options on top of that would have been a mess.
Also, while from a gameplay standpoint pacifist runs are pretty easy to establish (don't kill anyone yourself, basically), New Vegas' writing does a lot in the way of establishing responsibility and has more than a few cases where you're indirectly responsible for the death of a lot of people. It's rarely about not killing as much as it is about killing without getting your hands dirty.
[editline]1st January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;49418742]At this point, Fallout is just a shooter with character progression.[/QUOTE]
There is a rather blurry line between Character Progression and RPG Mechanics but Fallout 4's system is still far too complex to be anywhere near that line.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49431798]Unless a game is actually fully built around pacifism (see Undertale) it's neither easy nor a good idea to include it in your game.
New Vegas already has the premise of being able to pick whatever side you want and being able to kill anyone at any given time (something not a lot of RPGs allow), so implementing true pacifist options on top of that would have been a mess.
Also, while from a gameplay standpoint pacifist runs are pretty easy to establish (don't kill anyone yourself, basically), New Vegas' writing does a lot in the way of establishing responsibility and has more than a few cases where you're indirectly responsible for the death of a lot of people. It's rarely about not killing as much as it is about killing without getting your hands dirty.
[editline]1st January 2016[/editline]
There is a rather blurry line between Character Progression and RPG Mechanics but Fallout 4's system is still far too complex to be anywhere near that line.[/QUOTE]
Never said games should strive to fully include pacifist or non-lethal options, but it would be nice if they sprinkled it around more.
Like someone said above: You have to kill [sp]Kellogg[/sp]. The player has no possible way to avoid it. But it games like Alpha Protocol and NV, you are able to utilize either your relationships with other or your character's skill in order to avoid certain confrontations altogether.
My view is less about making pacifism a viable option and more like providing a game with more non-combat solutions. Even in missions where you have to kill, being able to do it indirectly is welcome.
And when I say that New Vegas' method of pacifism isn't perfect, it's because it literally isn't. They did a decent enough job with the side-quests (although it might be more because of loose quest objectives as opposed to deliberate design) but it would be neat if you could even beat the game with House or Legion and not have to [sp]destroy the BoS or kill Kimball[/sp].
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