[QUOTE]Libyan rebels are continuing to make progress as they battle west from Misrata towards the key town of Zlitan, on the road to Tripoli.
After more than six weeks of stalemate, the rebels have in recent days pushed back the forces of Col Muammar Gaddafi, despite rocket and mortar fire.
Progress is slow and the rebels have taken heavy casualties, but they say morale is high.
The capital remains some 200km (125 miles) away.
Digging in
Accompanied by a fighter by the name of Ali, we drove several kilometres beyond the entrenched positions that had, for the past month and a half, constituted the front line west of Misrata.
He brought us to a ditch, lined with pine trees and set among olive groves some way back from the coast.
Men were busy digging in. As they dug, they came under almost constant fire from Col Gaddafi's forces, some 500m away.
Rockets and mortars thudded into the earth nearby, bullets whizzed and cracked overhead. The smell of burning cordite mingled with the fragrance of pine needles, heated by the midday sun.
Until just a few days ago, this was Col Gaddafi's front line. Now the rebels hold it and they are slowly pushing their way forward, ditch by ditch, kilometre by kilometre.
Abu Baker, a 22-year-old fighter wearing flip-flops and an Argentina football shirt, said he was not afraid of the shells and the bullets.
"Everyone here has only one thing on his mind," he said. "If we kill him (Gaddafi) we win. And if we die, we go to heaven."
These men are not soldiers. They are students and shopkeepers, accountants and farmers. Their lack of military expertise has cost time and lives. But their commander, Muftah Mohammed, told us morale was high.
"We will hold our ground," he said. "Gaddafi's soldiers are fighting for money, but we are fighting for our freedom and our honour."
As these fighters inch their way westwards, they are gaining in confidence and in experience.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14094671[/url][/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53900000/jpg/_53900005__53719990_libya_latest_strikesmap464-1.jpg[/IMG]
Soon, ladies and gentlemen! Soon!
It's only a matter of time now.
Wonder what will happen to Gaddafi if his captured?
[QUOTE=LoLWaT?;31023526]He won't be. Guarantee he'll commit suicide before that happens unfortunately.[/QUOTE]
Commit suicide. Just like Hitler
[QUOTE=BCell;31024725]Commit suicide. Just like Hitler[/QUOTE]
[img]http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-godwin.gif[/img]
On a more serious note, hopefully their push Westwards will turn out more sucessfull that last time.
[QUOTE=croguy;31024850][img]http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-godwin.gif[/img]
On a more serious note, hopefully their push Westwards will turn out more sucessfull that last time.[/QUOTE]
Hopefully they won't be hit by friendly fire from Nato again.
I really don't hope civilians that still support gaddafi take arms to, then we will have a full fledged civil war.
I keep pointing this out
[quote]The capital remains some 200km (125 miles) away.[/quote]
If you look on the map, they're really only just taking the first few steps out of Misrata. They still have a long way to go.
I hope NATO steps up air strikes along this route, since it seems the most likely path to victory and I read a report a few days ago that NATO have been pretty shit at helping out around there
[QUOTE=smurfy;31027133]I keep pointing this out
If you look on the map, they're really only just taking the first few steps out of Misrata. They still have a long way to go.
I hope NATO steps up air strikes along this route, since it seems the most likely path to victory and I read a report a few days ago that NATO have been pretty shit at helping out around there[/QUOTE]Mainly being slowed down by being incredibly careful about what they target, lest civilians get killed. There's no real solution to it that doesn't involve greater risk of friendly fire on rebel forces or civilians, or committing much larger forces to the fight.
[QUOTE=Sexy Eskimo;31026033]I really don't hope civilians that still support gaddafi take arms to, then we will have a full fledged civil war.[/QUOTE]
And rebels at war with the government (both of which consist of Libyan citizens) isn't already a full fledged civil war?
[QUOTE=LoLWaT?;31023526]He won't be. Guarantee he'll commit suicide before that happens unfortunately.[/QUOTE]
Here's hoping he hasn't been saving "the best for last", if you get my drift.
[URL="http://www.obamaslibya.com"]www.obamaslibya.com
[/URL][URL]http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/06/23/18682737.php?show_comments=1[/URL]
Educate yourself first before supporting terrorists. Remember the last "Freedom fighters" we supported? They turned out to be the Taliban. These rebels have done terrible, terrible things. On the website is a video of them torturing loyalists, sodomizing them with their guns, and forcing them to eat another loyalist. These are the people you support?
EDIT: The video of the beheading and sodomizing was taken off the website, but the aftermath of it can be found here. [URL]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7ce_1308487134[/URL]
[QUOTE=nightfield;31031241]These are the people you support?[/QUOTE]
Considering who they're fighting, yes.
[QUOTE=nightfield;31031241][URL="http://www.obamaslibya.com"]www.obamaslibya.com
[/URL][URL]http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/06/23/18682737.php?show_comments=1[/URL]
Educate yourself first before supporting terrorists. Remember the last "Freedom fighters" we supported? They turned out to be the Taliban. These rebels have done terrible, terrible things. On the website is a video of them torturing loyalists, sodomizing them with their guns, and forcing them to eat another loyalist. These are the people you support?
EDIT: The video of the beheading and sodomizing was taken off the website, but the aftermath of it can be found here. [URL]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7ce_1308487134[/URL][/QUOTE]
Horrible things happen in war, I thought you knew that. Look what the Marines did to the Japanese when they invaded the Pacific Islands. Look at what the Russians did when they invaded Afghanistan. Look at what the French did in Algeria!
War is hell, and that phrase exists for a reason. There's an International War Crimes Tribunal for a reason.
Please don't tell me you just said what the marines did to the Japanese...More like what the Japanese did to the marines.
Anyway, they have a long way to go. Curious that nobodies sent ground troops to help.
If the rebels win, they will end up worse off than before the civil war.
[QUOTE=Sottalytober;31032537]Please don't tell me you just said what the marines did to the Japanese...More like what the Japanese did to the marines.
Anyway, they have a long way to go. Curious that nobodies sent ground troops to help.[/QUOTE]
Marines weren't exactly innocent, noble freedom fighters either you know.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31032842]If the rebels win, they will end up worse off than before the civil war.[/QUOTE]
Please elaborate.
[QUOTE=BCell;31024725]Commit suicide. Just like Hitler[/QUOTE]
If he doesn't, he'll be executed by the Rebels. Unless NATO gets to him first, in which case he'll be tried by the UN for crimes against humanity and either locked up for life or still executed.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31032953]Please elaborate.[/QUOTE]
Ruined economy, massive numbers dead, roads and railways will be destroyed. Some people will be deeply angry at the regime change, some will be angry they did not get enough assistance from abroad.
Few people will wish to go on holiday to Libya, few will be willing to invest into businesses there, the country will be completely ruined and exhausted. If they do get help after the war to rebuild I doubt it will be a great deal of help.
If they do not get help and have a ruined nation, a number will place the blame on a scapegoat. This can lead to problems later.
And as always, when you have a relatively bad life you will view the past as better and want to return to it, leading to more problems. (Libya was actually one of the more wealthy and stable nations on the continent)
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31033112]Some people will be deeply angry at the regime change,[/quote]
Who and why?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31033112]some will be angry they did not get enough assistance from abroad.[/quote]
NATO's getting enough flack as it is just for the air campaign, so anyone who's going to complain about us not doing enough can kindly save it for someone else.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31033112]Few people will wish to go on holiday to Libya, few will be willing to invest into businesses there, the country will be completely ruined and exhausted.[/quote]
It wasn't too different before the war.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31033112]If they do not get help and have a ruined nation, a number will place the blame on a scapegoat. This can lead to problems later.[/quote]
As of now there's no reason to believe this will happen.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31033714]Who and why?[/QUOTE]
Reactionaries, conservatives and people who think it was better before than after. There is always a number of such people whatever nation you visit.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31033714]NATO's getting enough flack as it is just for the air campaign, so anyone who's going to complain about us not doing enough can kindly save it for someone else.[/QUOTE]
The longer the war goes on like this, the more people die and the worse the situation gets. Let it last long enough and you will lose faith.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31033714]It wasn't too different before the war.[/QUOTE]
The ruined infrastructure, the dead people, etc may beg to differ.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31033714]As of now there's no reason to believe this will happen.[/QUOTE]
It can happen. If you have a bitter angry people that are poor and think things in the past were better this sort of thing happens.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31033112]Ruined economy, massive numbers dead, roads and railways will be destroyed. Some people will be deeply angry at the regime change, some will be angry they did not get enough assistance from abroad.
Few people will wish to go on holiday to Libya, few will be willing to invest into businesses there, the country will be completely ruined and exhausted. If they do get help after the war to rebuild I doubt it will be a great deal of help.
If they do not get help and have a ruined nation, a number will place the blame on a scapegoat. This can lead to problems later.
And as always, when you have a relatively bad life you will view the past as better and want to return to it, leading to more problems. (Libya was actually one of the more wealthy and stable nations on the continent)[/QUOTE]
Many other nations have gone throught such hard times and come out of it as united and strong, what is your point here?
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31032117]Considering who they're fighting, yes.[/QUOTE]
A great leader? In 1969, Muammar Qaddafi led a bloodless coup to overthrow King Idris I, a monarch imposed by the British after WWII. At the time, Libya was the poorest country in the entire world; with a literacy rate below 10%. Since then, the Libyan government has improved all aspects of their society. Libya now has a literacy rate at around 88 percent as reported by BBC. Libya has the lowest infant mortality rate and highest life expectancy rate in all of Africa.
Less than 5% of the population is undernourished. In response to the recent rising food prices around the world, the government of Libya abolished ALL taxes on food. Libya has the highest gross domestic product (GDP) at purchasing power parity (PPP) per capita of all of Africa. Libya also has the highest Human Development Index of any country on the continent of Africa. Before the chaos erupted, Libya had a lower incarceration rate than the Czech Republic, and far lower than the United States. In Libya, a lower percentage of people live below the poverty line than in the Netherlands, and again, far lower than that of the United States. They have free health care and treatment, and education is free of charge. Talented youth have an opportunity to study abroad at the expense of the Libyan government.
The core legal obligation expressed in article 2(7) of the UN Charter prohibits member states from any use of force unless it can be justified as self-defence after a cross-border armed attack; unless expressly authorized by the Security Council as essential for the sake of international peace and security. With respect to Libya, you need to take account of the fact that the Qaddafi government remains the lawful diplomatic representative of a sovereign state, and any international use of force even by the UN, much less a state or group of states, would constitute an unlawful intervention in the internal affairs of a sovereign state. This also implies that the Security Council’s decision - to allow foreign states to bomb Libya - is legal if, and only if, the outcome of this conflict represents a serious threat to international peace. Also UN Resolution 1970 (2011) forbids the delivery of weaponry of any sort to any citizen in Libya. UN Resolution 1973 (2011) while allowing the use of force to protect "civilians" does not mention attacking conventional ground forces not engaged in battle to help "rebels" nor does it bear any mention whatsoever of aiding rebellious forces to gain power.
Libya is the only country currently experiencing civil unrest that our Government has deemed important enough to support militarily. The day after the Security Council vote, March 18, armed forces of Ali Abdullah Saleh’s government in Yemen carried out a massacre. The massacre took place in broad daylight at the central square in Sana'a, Yemen’s capital. At least 52 people were killed and more than 200 wounded, most by snipers firing from atop government buildings. Hilary Clinton stated: “The U.S. government “is alarmed by today's violence in Sana'a against anti-government protesters and is seeking to verify reports that this is the result of actions by security forces...We call on Yemeni security forces to exercise maximum restraint, refrain from violence, and permit citizens to freely and peacefully express their views." There are currently no calls from Washington for a U.N.-imposed “no-fly zone,” or the bombing of Saleh’s military. Not even a whisper from Washington about sanctions. On the contrary, U.S. military and other aid has continued to flow unimpeded to Saleh and his army. On March 16, the government of Bahrain, with the assistance of 2,000 invading Saudi troops and hundreds of United Arab Emirates security forces, dispersed the mass protests in the capital Manama and elsewhere. As in the case of Yemen, no threats of military intervention, sanctions or anything at all in the face of a blatant invasion and brutal repression. More than 20 Bahrainis have been killed and hundreds wounded, out of a total population of just over a million, over the past month.
TL;DR: Libya isn't the bad guy at all, Syria is.
[QUOTE=nightfield;31040790]A great leader? In 1969, Muammar Qaddafi led a bloodless coup to overthrow King Idris I, a monarch imposed by the British after WWII. At the time, Libya was the poorest country in the entire world; with a literacy rate below 10%. Since then, the Libyan government has improved all aspects of their society. Libya now has a literacy rate at around 88 percent as reported by BBC. Libya has the lowest infant mortality rate and highest life expectancy rate in all of Africa.
Less than 5% of the population is undernourished. In response to the recent rising food prices around the world, the government of Libya abolished ALL taxes on food. Libya has the highest gross domestic product (GDP) at purchasing power parity (PPP) per capita of all of Africa. Libya also has the highest Human Development Index of any country on the continent of Africa. Before the chaos erupted, Libya had a lower incarceration rate than the Czech Republic, and far lower than the United States. In Libya, a lower percentage of people live below the poverty line than in the Netherlands, and again, far lower than that of the United States. They have free health care and treatment, and education is free of charge. Talented youth have an opportunity to study abroad at the expense of the Libyan government.
The core legal obligation expressed in article 2(7) of the UN Charter prohibits member states from any use of force unless it can be justified as self-defence after a cross-border armed attack; unless expressly authorized by the Security Council as essential for the sake of international peace and security. With respect to Libya, you need to take account of the fact that the Qaddafi government remains the lawful diplomatic representative of a sovereign state, and any international use of force even by the UN, much less a state or group of states, would constitute an unlawful intervention in the internal affairs of a sovereign state. This also implies that the Security Council’s decision - to allow foreign states to bomb Libya - is legal if, and only if, the outcome of this conflict represents a serious threat to international peace. Also UN Resolution 1970 (2011) forbids the delivery of weaponry of any sort to any citizen in Libya. UN Resolution 1973 (2011) while allowing the use of force to protect "civilians" does not mention attacking conventional ground forces not engaged in battle to help "rebels" nor does it bear any mention whatsoever of aiding rebellious forces to gain power.
Libya is the only country currently experiencing civil unrest that our Government has deemed important enough to support militarily. The day after the Security Council vote, March 18, armed forces of Ali Abdullah Saleh’s government in Yemen carried out a massacre. The massacre took place in broad daylight at the central square in Sana'a, Yemen’s capital. At least 52 people were killed and more than 200 wounded, most by snipers firing from atop government buildings. Hilary Clinton stated: “The U.S. government “is alarmed by today's violence in Sana'a against anti-government protesters and is seeking to verify reports that this is the result of actions by security forces...We call on Yemeni security forces to exercise maximum restraint, refrain from violence, and permit citizens to freely and peacefully express their views." There are currently no calls from Washington for a U.N.-imposed “no-fly zone,” or the bombing of Saleh’s military. Not even a whisper from Washington about sanctions. On the contrary, U.S. military and other aid has continued to flow unimpeded to Saleh and his army. On March 16, the government of Bahrain, with the assistance of 2,000 invading Saudi troops and hundreds of United Arab Emirates security forces, dispersed the mass protests in the capital Manama and elsewhere. As in the case of Yemen, no threats of military intervention, sanctions or anything at all in the face of a blatant invasion and brutal repression. More than 20 Bahrainis have been killed and hundreds wounded, out of a total population of just over a million, over the past month.
TL;DR: Libya isn't the bad guy at all, Syria is.[/QUOTE]
Why not go for syria and spend our aide on the libyan rebels? O-I-L. We are addicted to it. Meanwhile, apparently Israel isn't a good enough ally in the middle east, so we want Syria. Politics and mone will trump humanitarian needs every time.
Nice paper anyway, must've taken awhile
I'm not asking why we aren't. I already know that reason. It is partly oil, but it also has to do with the fact that the USA has a long and storied history with hating Libya.
I thought we had an official Libya thread?
And the rebels have been on the verge of taking over Tripoli for like 3 weeks now. They've stalled out.
[editline]11th July 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=nightfield;31041083]I'm not asking why we aren't. I already know that reason. It is partly oil, but it also has to do with the fact that the USA has a long and storied history with hating Libya.[/QUOTE]
Libya's number one export in the late 20th century was terrorism. Notably the exploding of a US passenger plane over Scotland.
[QUOTE=ewitwins;31032181]Horrible things happen in war, I thought you knew that. [I]Look what the Marines did to the Japanese when they invaded the Pacific Islands[/I]. Look at what the Russians did when they invaded Afghanistan. Look at what the French did in Algeria!
War is hell, and that phrase exists for a reason. There's an International War Crimes Tribunal for a reason.[/QUOTE]
What the Japanese did to captured American and British airmen along with Chinese civilians*
[QUOTE=KommradKommisar;31048455]What the Japanese did to captured American and British airmen along with Chinese civilians*[/QUOTE]
Well of course, it's a two-way street. Rape of Nanking? Baton Death-March?
[QUOTE=nightfield;31040790]A great leader? In 1969, Muammar Qaddafi led a bloodless coup to overthrow King Idris I, a monarch imposed by the British after WWII. At the time, Libya was the poorest country in the entire world; with a literacy rate below 10%. Since then, the Libyan government has improved all aspects of their society. Libya now has a literacy rate at around 88 percent as reported by BBC. Libya has the lowest infant mortality rate and highest life expectancy rate in all of Africa.
Less than 5% of the population is undernourished. In response to the recent rising food prices around the world, the government of Libya abolished ALL taxes on food. Libya has the highest gross domestic product (GDP) at purchasing power parity (PPP) per capita of all of Africa. Libya also has the highest Human Development Index of any country on the continent of Africa. Before the chaos erupted, Libya had a lower incarceration rate than the Czech Republic, and far lower than the United States. In Libya, a lower percentage of people live below the poverty line than in the Netherlands, and again, far lower than that of the United States. They have free health care and treatment, and education is free of charge. Talented youth have an opportunity to study abroad at the expense of the Libyan government.
[/QUOTE]
Hitler also was a good leader but he still was an enormous asshole, kind of like Ghadaffi.
But unlike Hitler Ghadaffi couldn't keep his own poeple in line.
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