Marvel Cinematic Universe thread: Another thread bites the dust - Film, Television and Music

Well put. This is why that Wanda scene worked so well, because they actually made her a character with (plenty) of flaws and shit.

Wait people had problems with the allfemale team up? I thought it was cool. I mean sure it was fan service galore but for Endgame I never expected less. Plus I swear in the three weeks it came out everyone was cheering when that scene happened now suddenly ooooo fanservice girl powa! Grrrrr! Please hope no one on YouTube is making a ruckus out of it and add to my disdain for YouTube movie guys as a whole.

People have been complaining about that since day one. These days it seems like people will complain either way and just look for something to be outraged about.

Its a scene which even on first viewing struck me as pandering the moment it happened. Suspension of disbelief is already high for a boardroom movie like this and it just seems way too on the nose.

I mean given my two theater experiences with people going "hell yeah" in half the rows and all my MD friends had zero issues with the scene in general. It's just all the warriors 2.0: Amazon edition and I'm okay with that. Plus imma be real; I rather have this than whatever happened with DC's Wonder woman.

the problem for me was that all these women were already being bad ass without it having to be shoved in our faces like that. it didn't bother me too much and it was cool but almost felt patronising tbh

I honestly feel like it kinda made those characters look weaker tbh. Like, they all take this time to strike a pose, and then Carol basically does it all by herself. We had characters like Pepper and Valkyrie doing badass shit before, but this felt like the movie saying "okay guys quiet down for a second, the girls have something they want to show us, go ahead dears!" Like Cricket said, it just felt patronizing. It felt like the film didn't have any confidence in its female leads, so it had to call attention to the fact that women can be superheroes too, as if that's some bizarre and novel concept. And then you've got characters like Mantis just standing there doing nothing because their powerset has exactly no utility in the kind of action sequence that scene set up. So in this big "empowering" moment, the worth of any female character who couldn't fly was basically just reduced to "they're a lady and they're here too I guess". I know they had good intentions with that bit and it's not like it ruined the movie for me or anything, but literally every woman I've spoken to about the movie has mentioned how they felt really talked-down-to with that scene. It felt like it was more for the benefit of people who fancy themselves feminist allies than for the benefit of the characters.

I didn't have much a problem with the scene, but it is a little strange for anybody to have to back Capt. Marvel up. As a youtuber I saw pointed out, it should've been Nebula taking the gauntlet instead, because she would actually need the help, and it would help conclude her arc vs. Thanos (give him a nice angry reaction shot of Nebula basically flipping him off). Otherwise she just kinda disappears at the end of the film, shooting her past self aside, when she was such an important element in the first two acts.

It's exactly the problem I have with Hollywood going full "diversity". They know how to make good heroes, but somehow when it comes to women or minority they always need to have that "Hey look, diversity" moment. Theses characters aren't treated like their straight white males counterparts. You have Wanda doing badass stuff, you have Pepper with her awesome armor blasting lasers everywhere... just make each character feel as good as that, without bundling them up into a "btw diversity" group. Each and everyone of them should be their own characters, not part of a subgroup of "diverse heroes", otherwise they'll always feel different. After Endgame tho, i want more Pepper. Her armor is badass.

I still don't get why people see the MCU as more than just a spectacle with neat visuals. Not trying to be a smartass here but big money production in modern Hollywood has 0 artistic integrity and if you look for them to shape/validate your identity politics you're gonna be disappointed every time. Hollywood showing more progressive stuff is a symptom of the global status quo slowly getting less shit and not the other way around.

I agree, but I also think big spectacle movies can amount to more than just neat visuals, provided the people making them are talented enough. The problem is, with a few exceptions like Taika and Gunn, companies like Disney usually just hire whomever is comfortable with doing what the studio wants, rather than people who have some sort of actual artistic vision. Which isn't to say artistic vision is the magic pill that transforms a run of the mill blockbuster into a well-crafted and thoughtful film (see Zack Snyder), but typically talented artists don't need to fall back on superficial details like the sex/race/nationality of their performers to bolster their film's value. I'm pretty sure Pom Klementieff is the first Asian woman to have a prominent role in one of these superhero movies as one of the actual superheroes and I think Zoe Saldana was the first woman of color to get top billing in an MCU movie, but James Gunn didn't have to rely on that to generate positive buzz because he had enough faith in his product to succeed (not to mention the raw skill to ensure that it did).

Patronization Panderization, Flanderization. Sum Negative.

I take issue with how Disney has masterfullly avoided including any and all deviant characters that Marvel lore provides them and has had their directors and writers bend over backwards in an effort to have other characters take their slot. I'd be lying trough my teeth if i said I didn't expect it though. When I argue artistic integrity I mean integrity not vision. The comics I grew up on had just enough freedom to present characters and stories that forced you to think and grow. I can't say the same for the MCU.

I don't really blame Kevin Feige or the Russos for this rapid push for diversity that at times has seemed forced. Because it's not their fault they're having to play catch-up. Kevin Feige wanted to make shit like Black Panther and Shang-Chi way back in Phase 2 - but Ike Perlmutter and the Marvel creative committee wouldn't let him, just like they wouldn't let the main villain of Iron Man 3 be a woman. It's no wonder that Kevin Feige demanded that Iger break up the committee and send Ike's ass back to Marvel TV, after Age of Ultron ended up being a clusterfuck and underperformed. And it's clear that he was in the right, because Phase 3 as a whole has blown the shit out of Phase 2.

Caveats of Winter Solder still being the bar, and Brie Larson being outperformed by a cgi cat.

Dude the whole last scene was pandering up the ass, so hard. The very minute Cap wielded Mjornir and Thor cheered I KNEW IT, it was fan-servicey pandering. Sam saying "on your left," getting every single MCU character out there to fight with even some instances that didn't make any sense (Where did Valkyrie get a Pegasus?? Why are the ravagers here? Pepper suddenly has her own suit that seems awfully close in power to Tony's? And she's using it perfectly?), Tony saying "I am Iron Man" was 110% a send off for the character and pandering. It was pure pandering all around. And I enjoyed it. Like, there are way more things wrong with Endgame that ruin your suspension of disbelief other than this. The only difference is it isn't pandering to you this time.

I don't think you quite understand the definition of pandering.

Do tell to whom they were pandering to then cause my SO burst out laughing at the scene, and she wasn't charitable about it afterward.

HOW TF CAN YOU NOT REACT TO THAT She was deadass holding her own against his whole strength with the Infinity Gauntlet, didn't even flinch at his brutal headbut, and it took a focused blast from the Power Stone to shake her off. I mean, no shit that'll toss her off guard. How tf does that warren a hearty laugh???? aside from the fact that it was a woman who it happened to, with those people ignoring what happened to Cap in IW right when Thanos arrived in wakanda

Your assumptive powers once again fail you. Seems to be a recurrent pattern.

Because Carol just isn't an interesting character. Her personality starts and ends with "she can punch really hard", and when she's sharing the stage with really well-developed characters like Tony Stark, Nebula, and even Thanos, that's just not enough to stand out. People in my theater blew up when Giant-Man punched the Leviathan, when Cap picked up Mjolnir, when Wanda started solo-ing Thanos, when Pepper showed up in the Rescue suit, etc. But a feat of strength doesn't really amount to much if you don't care about the character. There was a light chuckle in my theater when she tanked the headbutt, but other than that nobody reacted to any of the "please clap" moments they gave her. I keep seeing people defend Carol's characterization with "damn nerds just hate women" despite having not heard a single bad word (be it here, on /co/, or in-person) about Wanda, Mantis, Wasp, Okoye, or Nebula. I feel like people laughed at her getting yeeted into the atmosphere because her entire character up to that point had been "you guys screwed up because you didn't have me, I'm just that good, also I'm gonna disappear for the next 90 minutes, okay I'm back to save the day haha watch me stop this purple idiot". It honestly felt like perfectly timed comedic irony. She talks this massive game, barely does anything, and then when it's finally her time to shine she gets the upper hand for all of 20 seconds before getting punched so hard we don't see her again until the funeral scene. It literally felt like a "womp-womp" moment, like a smug idiot getting their comeuppance. Meanwhile you've got the moment in IW where Thanos is bodying everyone left and right (including the moment with Cap holding back the Gauntlet) and the tone is completely different. The climax of Infinity War is sorrowful, hopeless, and bleak whereas the climax of Endgame is booming, triumphant, and (until Tony's sacrifice) even a bit comedic.

She's just utterly unlikeable. Brie did a shit job.

It would sure as hell be way more confusing if Tony didn't build Pepper a suit on par with his. You think he's not going to have something to keep his wife of all people safe?

A suit that wasn't mentioned at all and just appears? I'm not saying it's totally out of the question in the universe, I'm saying it wasn't established and just slapped into the finale as a "oh, by the way, this was a thing" type deal.

You may as well complain about every new suit that came out of the blue since the only ones they show Tony explicitly building is in the first Ironman movie.

He is literally holding the helmet earlier in the film talking about how he made it.

The "all female team up moment" in Infinity War was way more natural than the one in Endgame.

you could complain that brie/cp marvel wasn't as good as she should be and she's completely unlikable or underdeveloped, yet nobody ever questions how hulk/banner never got any kind of development until thor ragnarok, yet here he is.

Show how did Vison actual pick up Mjolnir

In the middle of a massive battle, suddenly all female characters apparently have the time and the capacity to just walk into the same shot at the same location, not at all busy fighting things. It's just a ridiculous scene. Captain Marvel is definitely the worst character in the movie. If you've got more people cheering for the villain when he punches her away, then you've got a problem.