A Song of Ice and Fire /Game of Thrones Discussion V2: Winter Is Here
999 replies, posted
I think the atmosphere of this episode, the cinematography and sound design, was fantastic, but the writing that decided what the atmosphere would be was bonkers.
Miguel Sapochinik has done his best to save the show, and it's a heroic effort, but he can only do so much with what they've given him.
I mean, if you want to go the route of "every scene needs to have significance to the plot" then I suppose the opening to Saving Private Ryan had no purpose, either? The scenes were meant to convey what was happening in Kings Landing from the perspective of a civilian. To convey the chaos and carnage. I thought they were fantastic, and effectively conveyed just how terrifying and horrifying the siege was. They kept things grounded while the other character driven scenes happened elsewhere.
It doesn't need significance to the plot, but it needs to have a purpose. Arya had no purpose in this episode, but was given a gross amount of shoddily shot sequences. I was already getting the information of how fucked it was elsewhere. But Arya in this episode wasn't even a good pov to follow because she just walked into the middle of it then walked out for no seemingly no reason. You could have redone that with Sandor and it would have made plot sense and conveyed the same message without the huge redundancy of a major character chilling and walking around a burnt up city.
Difference with the Red Wedding is that while it was horrifying and cut a lot of characters arcs short, everything about it was 100% believable and a genuine consequence of previous behavior from said characters (Robb breaking his oath, for example).
And yes, I do expect my stories to have satisfying narrative arcs for the majority of the characters, you can do so even if it appears their arc is unfinished. This, however, was not that. Jamie basically threw all his character development away, reverting back to his Season 2 self. Arya was legitimately useless and could have been cut from the episode with no harm. And yes, while Daenerys going Mad Queen was foreshadowed to some extent, she went from a sympathetic, if flawed character to a genocidal maniac in...what, one episode? This is not good writing by any stretch.
To reiterate my point earlier, I have no regrets spoiling the remaining episodes. Like, seriously, it's only going to get worse. If you're on the fence about spoiling yourself, go ahead if you want to rip the band aid off.
What, did you just expect her to teleport out of Kings Landing? People would have been just as angry if she had survived without seeing how she escaped. This show literally cant win when people hate the episodes before they come out.
Realistically it should have had a lot more buildup, like Dany just trying to be a decent queen then killing kids in the span of two episodes destroys my suspension of disbelief. Then theirs Jon whose done fuck all this season, seasons of buildup for Cersei just to get crushed and be made into a victim
She shouldn't have even been there if she was going to do nothing. Like literally any of the other characters could have performed that same "escaping role" and also had a purpose for being in Kings Landing.
Better question: What was the point in her being there in the first place? Literally, a scene earlier in the episode has her bold-faced telling a soldier that she's heading to King's Landing to execute Cersei, with the Hound having her back because it's such a good idea. Then, when it comes time, The Hound does an about-face and tells her to GTFO to safety. So, what was the point?
I fucking love that Game of Thrones Season 8 can now be genuinely compared to Batman v. Superman. Episode 805's Bell Scene is the equivalent of a Martha moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOFYvnOmqDQ
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bnva6q/spoilers_ian_mcelhinney_barristan_selmy_saying/
Welp, take what you will out of this.
She was there to kill Cersei. When Daenerys did the unexpected and Sandor realized that neither of them were going to make it out alive if he didn't send her away before everything crumbled, he told her to leave.
nothing in this episode make any sense lmao
varys, master of court intrigue, committing treason in public while knowing full well how Dany treats traitors. another victim of this season's dumb down writing.
throwing away 6 seasons of Jaime's character development]
"arya you have to leave if you stay you'll die."
"okay."
dany's full 180 to genocidal maniac with little to no buildup or reason except relying on the same cheap Targaryen madness gimmick
at least king's landing burning to the ground looked cool enough
this episode/season is a real stinker.
How does this not make sense to you?
Maybe D&D were the secret heroes all along, rushing the series out so Martin could release the superior books...
(Jokes aside, I doubt that's the case - why would they derail from the source material and rush the ending if they did genuinely have more material to work with?)
Probably discovered that she wants more out of life than simple revenge. Maybe she can go back to Gendry after all.
The Hound's arc is pretty much a "when seeking revenge, dig two graves" trope except taken quite literally and involves cremation instead of burial.
I enjoyed the spectacle that this episode offered, but that is about it. This simply could have been so much more.
Jaime has ALWAYS been a flawed character. You think one season is enough to wash away an entire lifetime of him being his sisters sibling and lover? He fulfilled his promise to the north, proved himself honorable and noble, but in the end knew that he couldn't turn his back on the rest of his life so easily.
Remember how Arya and the Hound managed to sneak into the city by just walking into the front door? What's up with that?
And what was that giant crowd of people even doing outside of the city anyway? We can clearly see that there isn't anything out there.
...but the thing is, it wasn't only one Season of character development. That started as far back as when he got his hand chopped off when captive with Brienne.
I disagree that they didn't at least try to build it up. What with dissent among her advisers, the possibility of Jon robbing her "destiny," the death of Missandei, and whatnot. Dany has been a growing tyrant blinded by ambition for some time and Varys and Sansa were 100% right last episode. It's sloppy, but it's not entirely out of the left field, to me. I'm more bothered by Jon being a dimwit among other things.
I guess I'm a little more jaded about Jaime because one way or the other I've expected He and Cersei to die together and on Dany I've felt she was mad with power for a while. And/or because I only got into the series when season 7 came out and haven't invested as much time into the series (that's not to say I'm completely satisfied with how things are playing out, however).
A few other things/things I might have missed:
-How did Dany know of a betrayal before Tyrion tattled?
-Fuck Euron and his "I'm the man who killed Jaime Lannister"
-I hope, the Arya scenes are not setting her up to add Dany to her list and assassinate her because "Jon never would/can't." or whatever.
-Arya, The Hound, and Jaime just walking through the front gate.
-Golden Company basically a cardboard cutout and don't do anything after the gate blows.
Lastly, I'm not really sure what anyone was expecting from Daenerys' character arc at this point. Her goal has always been her birthright and enacting revenge on those that destroyed her family. And at this point, she's lost many of those closest to her by following others advice and placing their trust in them. She has gained literally nothing from confiding in Jon and Tyrion. And at this point, she's literally spelled it out for the audience - she was not going to and was never going to have the Throne by love. The people loved Jon, and even though he's said that he wouldn't take the Throne, "Power resides where men believe it resides". Danerys had well realized at this point that the only way she was going to achieve her goals was through fear, "fire and blood", just as her ancestors and family had done. This has been foreshadowed for more than half the series at this point.
Hey, if a Baseball cap and sunglasses works in the MCU movies, then a cloak can work just as well in GoT
That was his redemption arc, which followed through perfectly satisfyingly. Jaime was absolutely redeemed by his actions in the North. What had never changed, though, is his love for Cersei. Nothing has ever changed in that regard. Literally the first thing he did after getting his new hand was try to have sex with her, lol
His redemption started back in Season 2 though, with the scene between him and Brienne in the bathhouse being a huge turning point (as well as one of the best scenes in the entire show). It got put on hold again back in...what, Season 5 or thereabouts? But then at the end of last season he basically told Cersei to get fucked and he was going to go do the right thing, WHICH HE DID. Then we had this great stuff with him knighting Brienne and demonstrating his honor...and then threw it all away for the woman that betrays and uses him time and time again.
Jaime going back to Cersei did not un-redeem him. He made a promise to the North and he fulfilled that promise. Everything he did in Winterfell still happened.
My problem with it is really just how it's all been presented. I completely agree that this was always a likely possibility and that they've had little hints at it for a long, long time. However, she was basically a straight-up hero for a significant chunk of the last 14 episodes or so, and this heel-turn, while not out of left field, was handled too abruptly. And even with 'Targaryan Madness' and all the things that have happened to her and all her insecurities...I just do not buy her character going on a genocidal rampage and murdering scores of innocent civilians. Her going ham on all the Lannister armies? Completely believable, and a great demonstration of force. But to do the absolute unthinkable AFTER SHE HAD ALREADY WON...that's where I lose my ability to suspend disbelief.
At least on the upside, the meme material from this episode is golden. r/freefolk is a shitposting utopia right now. Plus, I found this on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/ringer/status/1127770326836760578?s=21
She was never the 'hero' of the past two seasons. In fact, the past two seasons have consistently spread the seeds of her actions in this episode. She was one of the protagonists, sure, but she was never above killing to inspire fear to bolster her power. What she did to the civilians in Kings Landing was no different than what she had done to the men of House Tully.
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