• A Song of Ice and Fire /Game of Thrones Discussion V2: Winter Is Here
    999 replies, posted
Jaime has always known Cersei was the baddest monstrous bitch in the land and has loved her for it anyway (as Tyrion has reminded him). He did the right thing to stand with the living against the White Walkers and has atoned for past sins, but he has always loved Cersei. He, like Tyrion, are trying to save what remains of their family the best they can. Personally, I don't see Jaime's actions as betraying much of what he's been doing for the last few seasons.
I am drunkenly laughing and crying at the same time. Everyone in my apartment hated this episode. I'm so sad.
House Tarly*, and there's a big difference between roasting a city of millions of innocents alive post-surrender and killing 2 hostile enemy commanders that refused to bend the knee because for some reason D&D decided the Tarlys are loyal to the family that killed their liege lord and murdered the real Queen by blowing up the sept.
He should have died in Winterfell if the writers had any fucking brains at all, could have saved them a lot of plot armor accusations.
Thanks, my mistake. Still, I disagree. It's a degree down the ladder, but the principle is still the same. She didn't have to kill either of them but did so regardless. She's never been interested in being a perfectly merciful ruler.
Hard disagree. At every single turn (save for the 'Loot Train Attack') from S7E2 onward, she listened to her advisors when they recommended a path that resulted in less risk to civilians. She put her entire military campaign and the entire reason she came to Westeros on hold for the sake of defeating the Army of the Dead, in no small part because she fell in love with Jon. She directly saved Jon's life no less than three times, sacrificed half her army against the Night King's army, and what does she get to show for it? Utter resentment from the people she saved (Sansa & Arya mostly), and the loss of the man she loved, as well as pretty much every other person that meant anything to her. In some ways, her turning Mad Queen is really justified, but again, I think it was presented poorly. Also at the end, I assume you meant House Tarly and quite frankly the comparison isn't apt. Not only were they soldiers instead of civilians, but they had just betrayed House Tyrell (Daenarys' ally at the time) by sacking their castle and killing the inhabitants. I feel no sympathy to the Lannister soldiers that died in the loot train attack, and the scene was certainly directed in such away that basically said "Yeah, they deserve it."
I don't think it's worth listing all my problems with the episode because everybody else here has covered it, but this was by FAR the worst episode and I can't really think of any redeeming plot points for this episode. It was totally retarded and kinda unforgivable. I am very surprised to see a couple of Facepunchers defend this piece of trash. The memes have been good though: https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/242634/15acee68-6016-436a-83b8-9d5a228800f5/image.png
She already very clearly DID have the throne by fear. The entire city instantly feared her enough to give her the throne half an hour into the episode. They threw their swords down with virtually no resistance. What was her goal here? Making an example of thousands of random people who didn't even oppose her? Ruling by fear make sense in the context of "I will destroy anybody who opposes me", it doesn't sense in the context of "I will destroy anybody. Period. I'll just destroy anybody". When your average power-hungry usurper is considering an uprising against danerys, they're not going to say, "Hm, well hold on, if I rise against her, she'll wantonly destroy a bunch of peasants who are not me, my heart bleeds for the people, I will lay down my arms and swear fealty to protect the common folk". Anybody motivated by that kind of altruism would immediately see that she'll burn thousands of people to death whether they bend the knee or not, so she'd better be deposed immediately. They could have made this far, far more believable by just making the city not surrender. Make her dragon less of a nuclear bomb that instantly demolishes all the defenses of the city, and instead leave their fighting force intact enough that they continue fighting the invading forces. Now Dany has a reason to be mad at a bunch of people in the city, the soldiers, so her roasting them all, ignoring collateral damage, makes sense. Make her use excessive force to a point of lots of civilians dying as collateral, not just burning random civilians for fun. Having her incinerate the entire, completely surrendering city for no coherent reason is completely laughable.
Christ you mindless fanboy. we're not saying there weren't any hints of Daeny going mad we're crying because the execution was so laughably bad and hurried. I don't even mind the current ending(because yes the leaks are true lol) it's just that when the writers take every single possible shortcut to get there every semblance of quality will obviously go out the window and we're left with a literal shit show.
You're essentially just explaining why Daenerys did what she did. If there's anyone to criticize for bizarre writing, it's Sansa. Being as ungrateful and conniving as she's being is pretty despicable given that she practically owes her life to Dany. Pretty shitty to spread the secret that Jon explicitly told her not to spread, either. I doubt she's going to get any criticism at all from anyone for it.
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/1861/a3e4a3e2-e6ff-4c06-b416-c7b8cedba330/Screenshot_20190512-225034.png 92 post oh noooo
Calm down lmao. I'm hardly a fanboy. I think the series has gone downhill as a consequence of killing every well written, interesting and smart character. I just don't think people's hate for this episode is entirely justified when a good bulk of it was preconceived. The hate wagon had already left the station before the episode even came out - how can anyone that had their minds made up about the rest of the season be expected to be objective about it?
I think theirs just a step missing in her turning into the mad queen, I can't comprehend how her rage is directed towards the lannisters and she just starts destroying the city because of the bells. She's suppose to adore children but she just starts roasting them like wtf.
You're putting 100% faith into a Targaryen to act completely rationally? You do realize that "Targaryen madness" is a trait that runs in the family? If you're willing to admit that it was plausible and foreshadowed that Dany could go mad, then how can you also criticize her actions in a state of madness as irrational? You know that's kind of the point of being mad?
My problem is that even with all of that stuff in mind that justifies her going Mad Queen, I do not believe for even half a second that Daenerys would kill innocent civilians with such wanton abandon. Even when she sacked cities in the past, she emphasized leaving the women and children unharmed. And again, this might be an issue with poor presentation more than it is a bad story idea, but when the show goes out of its way to prop her up as a hero and then turns it completely on its head in about an episode and a half, somebody fucked up when trying to convey this properly. Also when I think about it, Jon has been a straight-up fucking asshole for a large chunk of this season, and I attribute that entirely to poor writing. Borderline useless in the Battle of Winterfell, completely abandoned Daenerys in the post-battle celebration, destroyed her trust by spilling the beans to his family with hardly a moment's pause, and then at the start of this episode tells her he loves her...and even she can tell he's completely full of shit. #NotMyJon.
Your average f16 pilot had little qualms dropping napalm left right and center, drone pilots also report a similar disconnect from the consequence of their actions. People look insignificant from up high so I'm gonna give Daeny a pass for getting carried away
And I could give it a pass too if they hadn't spent the first part of the battle showing just how careful she was about only going after military targets. She didn't just win, she won unequivocally and for some reason that wasn't enough. And when they surrendered, just like Tyrion said they would, they put special emphasis on Daenerys going ballistic starting at the Red Keep, with the implication she was upset that Cersei wasn't going to get hers. The logical train of events after that would have been for Daenerys to make a beeline for the Red Keep, burn it to the ground, and spare the rest. But no, she ended up basically going street by street, massacring everything that moved. It's just...again, it's not so much the idea I have a problem with, it's just that the way the show presents it appears just for shock, not because it has some internal consistency or logic.
Well I'm glad I'm not super invested in the show anymore. It feels like Game of Thrones is this far away thing that happened a few years ago and this is some kind of high budget troll. I don't understand how so many big franchises have managed to be worse than average in the past decade.
I agree that the leap definitely exists, but I do think her actions tonight were still *supported* throughout the series. Think of it this way - she's lost all of the advisers and those closest to her that she not only cared for a great deal, but trusted completely - and kept her in line. At this point there's no one to really curb her worst impulses and also no one she really trusts. Jon and Tyrion (and Varys) have more or less betrayed her in her eyes, and she sees no support from really anyone at this point. She's been completely and utterly undermined, even after trusting and listening to Jon and Tyrion this whole time. She said herself that it was on the civilians of KL to support her or die (paraphrasing, since I honestly cant remember exactly what she said, but the conversation to this effect happened over the past two episodes with her and Tyrion), and that burning the city was the only way to guarantee and secure the Throne. Even then, she gave peace one last chance by heeding Tyrion's words to give Cersei the chance to surrender - and what it got her was seeing Missandei lose her head. I think that whole series of events, ultimately, is what made her do what she did in this episode. The bell was just a reminder to her of everything that had happened and everything that she had lost. It was Tyrion, after all, that told her the bell meant surrender - and the last time she listened to Tyrion in favor of peace, things didn't go her way. I think she just didn't trust that surrender was the way she was going to get what she wanted, and did what she did because of it. I agree that it *would* have been more rational for her to just beeline to the Red Keep and destroy it, thereby ignoring the surrender but still getting the revenge she wanted (and betraying Tyrion's wishes in the process), but again, you can't expect 100% rational actions from someone coming from a family of insane people. There was, in my eyes, just enough justification for her to do what she did given the circumstances. It was a jump, yes, but not one large enough that I can scorn the entire arc of her character.
Most of us come to this thread to voice our opinion and expecting those to be objective would be an oxymoron. I didn't mean to be rude I just saw you typing up a billion plot justifications for everyone's critique when I feel it should be obvious that most of us are unhappy with the execution and not the plot. That said it was about time this show put a real wartime atrocity on screen, we've had a lot of talk about what happens when a city is sacked so it's about time we saw it.
My biggest problem with the past two seasons has been Euron. What a transparently worthless character. He exists only as a plot device and for dramatic tension. Especially in this episode. The ONLY reason he just magically and conveniently washed up right next to Jaime is to have the audience feel some amount of tension and drama by introducing a threat to Jaime. There was virtually nothing to his character other than retrieving the golden company, killing off the sand snakes, and fighting Jaime once.
It didn't occur to me until now that Ellaria Sand is now dead, lmao
I feel bad for Euron's actor, I feel like he could make a decent character, just that the writing for the character is so poor and contrived.
Alrighty lets break it down a bit. Epic fight to the death? Check. Great swordplay? Well we got some cool shots of them clashing and hitting stone, I'll give that a check. Gregor throwing Sandor through walls and shit? Well, we got Gregor throwing Sandor, and Sandor throwing Gregor through a wall, but I wanted something more.. Disarmed and have to resort to fists and the environment? Check for disarmament, no check for beating each other with chunks of the environment. (pressing up against the wall doesn't count) Gregor looks to be besting Sandor until Sandor gets out on top? We got that... so check, but not a happy check in the way it played out. They had greatness in their midst, but ended it too soon, and in an unsatisfying manner. I technically got what I wanted, but I still feel disappointed. https://discourse-cdn-aws1.com/boingboing/original/3X/9/6/96ff87d6345589bdb36b8e147741b7ee003dbcd8.gif
Stupid. Stone fucking stupid. They have lost the plot. Most pointless episode yet
I was fully expecting Arya to turn the tide in Sandor's favor. Or go to kill Cersei. I would have been pissed if she got to kill the Night King and The Mountain/Cersei.
I feel like they fucked this season up on purpose if that even makes sense which it still doesn't, but how do you fuck everything up to this degree. Even for the sake of cool it still doesn't make sense. I just kept laughing at everything this entire episode.
I thought it was fine. The only thing I really disliked was that Jaime didn't kill Cersei.
One thing that was cool was finally, after all this time, getting to see the dragon shadow over Kings Landing scene. Even if it was the precursor to something awful.
https://i.imgur.com/lVXWyF7.jpg i like how its just been a slow and steady descent this season lmao. I really got some high hopes for the final episode... yea i can't even defend this anymore. fuck this. on the plus side it is making me want to finally pick up the books at least. also that fucking editing when jamie and euron fought. I could swear Jamie kept teleporting to the left and then suddenly the right of him?? couldnt help but laugh when Euron looked confused at one point cause yea so was I lmao
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