Star Wars Megathread Episode IV: A New Thread: UNTAGGED SPOILERS? 1 WEEK BAN - Film, Television and Music

[QUOTE=Grizz;52975864]Rey's theme is very memorabe.[/QUOTE] I'm gonna be 100% honest when I say I don't remember what it is at all.

[QUOTE=angelangel;52975818] yeah it does feel like a marvel movie[/QUOTE] Ouch.

All the people in here saying the Canto Bight subplot was useless: yeah, no shit, that's the fucking point. Luke's journey to Cloud City was mostly useless too, and that was the point, he was warned to control his emotions, or he would fail. He didn't control his emotions and he failed. [Sp]in this movie the story is different. The film made a huge deal about the conflict being a lot more complex than just "jump in an X-Wing and blow stuff up". Poe did his thing (destroying the dreadnought) and ultimately the Resistance lost more than it gained. Finn did a thing with Rose and ultimately gained nothing and almost lost Rose Yoda said "mistakes are our greatest master" - did you completely miss this message? The movie almost mocks Return of the Jedi by having an almost 1:1 scene with Rey, Kylo and Snoke - and having this scene be about something entirely different. "Why is Snoke such a powerful Sith?" - it doesn't matter, The Sith are irrelevant now, and Snoke as a character is mostly irrelevant to the story. "Who are Rey's parrents?" - it doesn't matter, some fucking junkies who sold Rey. "Oh crap, Rey is seduced by the dark side, what's going to happen?" - nothing, she goes to the glory hole and it's fucking nothing, because the light/dark dichotomy is irrelevant. She even uses the dark side later when fighting the red S&M guards and she's okay.[/sp] I feel like this film is going to end up like Empire: not liked at release, and loved a few decades after. It even has the same problems, like weird pacing and almost non-existent structure, bacause the main cast is split, and the film often warps time to fit several locations and storylines together. Other than that I thought it was really good.

[QUOTE=halfer;52975992]All the people in here saying the Canto Bight subplot was useless: yeah, no shit, that's the fucking point. Luke's journey to Cloud City was mostly useless too, and that was the point, he was warned to control his emotions, or he would fail. He didn't control his emotions and he failed. [Sp]in this movie the story is different. The film made a huge deal about the conflict being a lot more complex than just "jump in an X-Wing and blow stuff up". Poe did his thing (destroying the dreadnought) and ultimately the Resistance lost more than it gained. Finn did a thing with Rose and ultimately gained nothing and almost lost Rose Yoda said "mistakes are our greatest master" - did you completely miss this message? The movie almost mocks Return of the Jedi by having an almost 1:1 scene with Rey, Kylo and Snoke - and having this scene be about something entirely different. "Why is Snoke such a powerful sith?" - it doesn't matter, sith are irrelevant now. "Who are Rey's parrents?" - it doesn't matter, some fucking junkies "Oh crap, Rey is seduced by the dark side, what's going to happen?" - nothing, she goes to the glory hole and it's fucking nothing, because the light/dark dichotomy is irrelevant; she even uses the dark side later when fighting the red S&M guards and she's okay. [/sp] I feel like this film is going to end up like Empire: not liked at release, and loved a few decades after. It even has the same problems, like weird pacing and almost non-existent structure, bacause the main cast is split, and the film often warps time to fit several locations and storylines together. Other than that I thought it was really good.[/QUOTE] I should compliment your effort in defending this movie, if anything else. I need to point out however that if you thought this whole new trilogy was a deconstruction of the original movies then you couldn't be far from the truth, and that The Empire Strikes Back was liked in due time for altogether very different reasons

Empire's time warping is still all sorts of fucked up.

Pretty sure I just had major things spoiled to me by a friend because "you enjoy things more if they're spoiled I read a study"

[QUOTE=EliaMoroes;52976033]I should compliment your effort in defending this movie, if anything else. I need to point out however that if you thought this whole new trilogy was a deconstruction of the original movies then you couldn't be far from the truth[/QUOTE] The Force Awakens is nothing but a deconstruction though, isn't it? It places 3 new major characters, ergo Rey, Finn and Kylo, in situations where they are followed by the Original Trilogy's legacy, and they talk about Legends of old and their place in the world with a legacy such as this - just like kids who haven't seen the OT talk about the OT. It both deconstructs the Original Trilogy and establishes what it [I]was[/I] for people who didn't know. It's essentially "poetry - they rhyme", but actually makes sense thematically. But I should have made it clearer in my post that this film is such a departure from Force Awakens, I won't be that surprised if they pull a Justice League and completely change the tone of XI so that people will like it more. Considering the shit show that is Solo's production, this will be completely normal by Lucasfilm's standards. This film is really weird and doesn't fit AT ALL in the Star Wars "bigger picture". But as a standalone film, I think it's great. [QUOTE=EliaMoroes;52976033]The Empire Strikes Back was liked in due time for altogether very different reasons[/QUOTE] My wording in my argument about Empire was very poor, I wasn't trying to compare the two films directly, as much as I was trying to compare the reception they did (and might or might not) get because of their relationship to the other films. here's what I mean: Empire had a plot twist that contradicted the backstory told in the original film and was a lot less cheerful (people betray each other and main characters fail miserably )- both things seemed "out of place" compared to the first film. The Last Jedi changes the mythology the series is based on (but not really though, I'll elaborate in the spoiler at the end) and gives a giant middle finger to people who expected it to go through the usual Star Wars motions after The Force Awakens - I think it's pretty clear why people might dislike this film [sp]Regarding the changes to "mythology the series is based on". I think the smart thing about the film is that it changes seemingly cornerstone truths about the Universe like The Force, the Jedi, the Sith - but it ultimately says that it doesn't matter, all that matters is fighting for what you believe is right, and hope - that's what this world is about[/sp] At least that's my take on it, I might just be completely delusional and deeply disappointed about the film, thus bending logic to make this film make sense. In any case, if anybody's going to see the film again, try watching out for the stuff I'm pointing out, I think it has value

I can't make heads nor tails of all the opinions It's like people are watching different movies

[QUOTE=Grizz;52975864]Rey's theme is very memorabe.[/QUOTE] It’s really not. I couldn’t tell you how it goes and I watched TFA AND TLJ last night. Nowhere near the brilliance of the force theme or twin suns or duel of the fates

It's hard to believe we've watched the same movie. You don't like rehashes but you don't like new things. There was some humor, yeah. Keep in mind that this is Disney though. Aside from that the movie was great, and it had a ton of underlying messages.

[QUOTE=ElectronicG19;52976168]It’s really not. I couldn’t tell you how it goes and I watched TFA AND TLJ last night. Nowhere near the brilliance of the force theme or twin suns or duel of the fates[/QUOTE]while overall I 100% agree there have been way fewer great tracks on the soundtrack for the new star wars films I can't deny I've had Rey's theme periodically stuck in my head for like two years

[QUOTE=halfer;52976046]But as a standalone film, I think it's great.[/QUOTE] That's probably my main gripe with it. It's part of a trilogy of trilogy, there is context that people already know, and context that isn't explained that I think is missing from that movie. You can't remake A New Hope just like you can't remake Harry potter 1 : it's a movie where the magic of the new universe happen, and you don't care why, you're just enchanted to see every aliens, every spaceships, every planets. But if you want to add on top of that, with sequels, you have to start providing context and explantations for everything. It doesn't have to go really deep, but it has to exist. Spoiler for TLJ [sp]The biggest offender here is Snoke. From what we know of him, he's just a random villain guy, he doesn't fit in the overall story. He's missing context. Basically it feels like this whole story is missing a prequel movie to make him actually fearsome. Something as basic as a flashback of an exploratory empire group going to the outer rim to search for stuff and being turned buy this mysterious figure would have gave him something before his death Also, wtf happened to the knights of Ren? [/sp]

[QUOTE=halfer;52976046] The Force Awakens is nothing but a deconstruction though, isn't it? It places 3 new major characters, ergo Rey, Finn and Kylo, in situations where they are followed by the Original Trilogy's legacy, and they talk about Legends of old and their place in the world with a legacy such as this - just like kids who haven't seen the OT talk about the OT. It both deconstructs the Original Trilogy and establishes what it was for people who didn't know. It's essentially "poetry - they rhyme", but actually makes sense thematically. [/QUOTE] A deconstruction fiction is a fiction which takes the elements of a certain genre or another fiction and seems to follow in that suit at first, but then completely and unexpectedly subvert said elements in every possible way, either to make the audience reflect upon them or change the table completely for future fiction. While I don't think The Force Awakens is a mere rehash of the original trilogy it's still a Star Wars story who doesn't subvert every character and trope in the book. I'd say it does the opposite: it uses said stock characters and tropes to craft a story which, while trying to result familiar to the audience and what you'd expect from a Star Wars story, tries to be its own thing at the same time (the perfect example of this would be Kylo Ren and how he compares to Darth Vader). I hate to sound yet again like "that guy obsessed with the KotOR games", but to this day Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords is pretty much [B]THE[/B] deconstruction story about the whole Star Wars universe. [QUOTE=halfer] My wording in my argument about Empire was very poor, I wasn't trying to compare the two films directly, as much as I was trying to compare the reception they did (and might or might not) get because of their relationship to the other films. here's what I mean: Empire had a plot twist that contradicted the backstory told in the original film and was a lot less cheerful (people betray each other and main characters fail miserably )- both things seemed "out of place" compared to the first film. The Last Jedi changes the mythology the series is based on (but not really though, I'll elaborate in the spoiler at the end) and gives a giant middle finger to people who expected it to go through the usual Star Wars motions after The Force Awakens - I think it's pretty clear why people might dislike this film.[/QUOTE] The Empire Strikes Back was ultimately like because, especially compared to the other two movies, didn't change the general backstory or the lore of the original trilogy, but it was a much [I]mature[/I] film where the heroes weren't portrayed as infallible (and paid dearly for their mistakes) and the ending featured a very famous plot twist which at the time of the release nobody saw coming and was recognized as a good narrative move. When it comes to The Last Jedi, but I know we are going towards personal opinions territory, I believe there is a certain and very important difference between trying to change the direction and main elements of your story in a clever direction which will surprise the audience positively and set up further and good developments and, on the other hand, literally [I]writing by the seat of your fucking pants[/I] in order to create a cheap shock in the audience which ultimately doesn't steer the narrative towards a better direction

[QUOTE=TheFrostBible;52976205]It's hard to believe we've watched the same movie. You don't like rehashes but you don't like new things. There was some humor, yeah. Keep in mind that this is Disney though. Aside from that the movie was great, and it had a ton of underlying messages.[/QUOTE] I don't think it was Disney, or LucasFilm, it was Rian. It's been said repeatedly that Disney is hands off with the movies and LucasFilm themselves gave Rian breathing room.

Well, I loved it. Kind of surprised how divisive it seems to be with people, I didn't personally find much wrong with it aside the odd moment here or there but even then I didn't hate them. There was less witty quips (even if one like many said was a pain) and less fan service. And it wasn't just Empire 2.0 which is what I was worried about. I think that there was maybe too many action sequences, not enough breathing room for character development (or indeed establishment of the new characters). Went into the movie kind of open, no real preconceptions or theories. Hell, I have only seen the second trailer maybe once or twice and am not really a massive Star Wars fan to begin with. I can understand why people may not be sure what to make of it or not be too keen on it. But hate? I dunno, I wouldn't want to speculate or question people's choices too much but maybe me not being so big on Star Wars was why I got more out of it.

I'm hearing more much positive feedback than negative. [editline]14th December 2017[/editline] Annnd some cunt just spoilt it for me via Discord PMs...

[QUOTE=EliaMoroes;52976347]A deconstruction fiction is a fiction which takes the elements of a certain genre or another fiction and seems to follow in that suit at first, but then completely and unexpectedly subvert said elements in every possible way, either to make the audience reflect upon them or change the table completely for future fiction. While I don't think The Force Awakens is a mere rehash of the original trilogy it's still a Star Wars story who doesn't subvert every character and trope in the book. I'd say it does the opposite: it uses said stock characters and tropes to craft a story which, while trying to result familiar to the audience and what you'd expect from a Star Wars story, tries to be its own thing at the same time (the perfect example of this would be Kylo Ren and how he compares to Darth Vader).[/QUOTE] Force Awakens wasn't an experimental film, but how it approached it's villain was pretty unexpected for a franchise such as Star Wars - Kylo is pretty far from a stock character, isn't he? Finn wasn't all that shocking, but still, a Stormtrooper that disagrees with the Empire's ways? That's pretty new. But you are right, calling The Force Awakens a deconstructionist work was stupid on my part, it's more of a meta-commentary, I guess? With Rey as a vehicle for new viewers commenting on the franchise's legacy; Finn as a subversion of the franchises good/evil dichotomy; and Kylo Ren being a more extreme commentary on the series legacy. [QUOTE=EliaMoroes;52976347]The Empire Strikes Back was ultimately like because, especially compared to the other two movies, didn't change the general backstory or the lore of the original trilogy, but it was a much mature film where the heroes weren't portrayed as infallible (and paid dearly for their mistakes) and the ending featured a very famous plot twist which at the time of the release nobody saw coming and was recognized as a good narrative move When it comes to The Last Jedi, but I know we are going towards personal opinions territory, I believe there is a certain and very important difference between trying to change the direction and main elements of your story in a clever direction which will surprise the audience positively and set up further and good developments and, on the other hand, literally writing by the seat of your fucking pants in order to create a cheap shock in the audience which ultimately doesn't steer the narrative towards a better direction[/QUOTE] That's the thing, I personally don't think the "shocks" here are all that shocking or cheap [sp]Kylo is an unstable fucker to begin with, and after killing his father and thinking his mother died he's a fucking mess - killing Snoke is not that out of left field for him (I just remembered, he actually tried to attack him earlier in the film). Also, Kylo's connection with Rey has been set up very well in TFA and in this film, so choosing to become Supreme Leader and lead The First Order with Rey, again, not that unexpected from Kylo. You could say that Snoke allowing himself to get killed is a cheap shock (he's so powerful after all), but I honestly thought that was set up adequately too: he underestimated Kylo, and that's what ultimately killed him (as Rey said it would).[/sp] and since the idea that the world isn't black or white isn't new for the Star Wars universe; the change in the Jedi/Sith status quo isn't that shocking either. Unless you mean some other twist, of course, even though I think [I]almost[/I] every one of them was done well (more on that under the spoiler) [sp]the most effective narrative "shock" the movie pulled (for me, of course) was Luke being an absolute failure as a Master, and an overall dickhead. I've always lived with this image of old and wise Luke in my head, and this movie proceeded to punch me in the gut repeatedly for the first 1,5 hours with how it treated Luke. This character turn is not totally unreasonable too: Luke massacred a bunch of Jabba's people and outright threatened to kill Jabba himself in Jedi; he's also been known to make rash decisions based on his emotional state (Empire and Cloud City). Thinking of killing his nephew is pretty fucking nuts though, they should have set it up better.[/sp] To reiterate (couldn't edit the previous paragraph to be more sensible): I don't really see the twists this film pulled as cheap shocks, I think they make sense and it was possible to seem them coming. I do see your point though, Empire Strikes Back builds on an already existing mythology to surprise the audience and built a more interesting story onwards, this film, on the other hand, destroys the existing mythology. But the only conclusion I take from this is that ESB is a more [I]respectable[/I] example of a sequel that takes things into a new direction, compared to TLJ. As you said, the twist in ESB was a move towards a more nuanced and interesting direction, ROTJ largely failed to follow up on that promise, in my opinion; and the question now is whether or not Episode XI will succeed in it's task (it probably won't)

[QUOTE=Freeze;52976244]while overall I 100% agree there have been way fewer great tracks on the soundtrack for the new star wars films I can't deny I've had Rey's theme periodically stuck in my head for like two years[/QUOTE] Yeah, I really agree. Rey's theme is great, and it's always stuck in my head.

By the way, wasn't it confirmed that [sp]a new lightsaber color would show up? The only new one was the one Kylo wielded in the flashback, and I'm fairly sure it was light blue, just as Anakin's[/sp]. Also, huge props for continuing to use practical effects when they could - Porg animatronics were really cool to see

So I saw the movie this morning, [sp]There are some great scenes in this film, I was worried about Luke's arc and him being a pessimistic hermit but I thought the story behind him being distrustful of Ben's power and him almost snuffing out Ben, only for his moment of weakness forcing him to be driven further to the dark side was really intriguing and gave Luke some real weight, you could tell he carried that with him and that he had never been able to let go of that horrible misjudgement. I also liked the fact that Rey was a nobody, as well as Snoke being killed off early was unexpected. Puppet Yoda telling Luke to stop acting like a little bitch and laying down a well-needed wisdom smackdown was also awesome. But every time it seemed like things were going to get really interesting or it was really going to ramp up the intensity and do something completely off the mark, it just does a 180 and ends up being completely disappointing. I thought Holdo was a First Order spy and was the person giving the location of the Rebel fleet which is how they were being tracked through lightspeed, the reason there was no plan to try and escape their death was because she was secretly sabotaging them from the inside, and that this would later be revealed as a sneaky twist BUT NOPE she's a good guy and she saves the day by sacrificing herself... except we've barely known this character and she had like 15 minutes of screen time, but we're supposed to give a shit about her even though we really don't?? Rose was an absolutely wank character and had no purpose or likeable qualities, and her and Finn's entire casino plot was garbage and completely pointless and ultimately served no real higher purpose to the story. Also, Finn decided yet again that he was going to run away from The First Order and secretly bail in an escape pod even though he already came to terms with the fact he was done running from them in TFA? Then at the end decides to try and sacrifice himself which comes out of nowhere, but instead of committing to it and giving him some actual purpose in the movie for the first time, Rose saves him and declares her love for him, even though they've known each other for literally 12 hours. Rey's arc was the best in the movie, and the scenes where her and Ben were connected by the force created a lot of intrigue and uncertainty as to what was going to happen with the characters. They both struggle to understand their connection with one another, they feel lonely in the universe, struggle with inner conflict in balancing the light and dark sides of the force, yet in spite of their hatred are drawn towards one another because of these shared experiences; and with Luke talking about how the Jedi suck and need to end throughout the ENTIRE movie this seemed like an awesome setup for the two of them teaming up with one another outside of everyone else and creating the 'grey jedi' concept, they even have an awesome fight together. But nope Ben all of a sudden goes "okay let's rule the Galaxy" and now he's a bad guy again and then at the end Luke says "there is a Jedi" and now it seems like Rey will carry that legacy on instead. Captain Phasma enjoyed all of 5 minutes of screen time which is annoying because when she's on screen she's a badass, but was just tossed in at the end to have a fight with Finn then fucked off again. Total waste. And that fucking scene where Leia was frozen in space and what seemed like a heartfelt send off and then all of a sudden fucking force pulls herself back to the ship lmao it was laughable and probably pulled me out of my immersion the most. Also, why end the movie on a shot of some random little kid no-one gives a fuck about? I really wanted to enjoy this film, but ultimately there is more that upsets me about it than I enjoyed. 5/10 from me :([/sp]

[sp]Finn wasn't running away from The First Order he was trying to save Rey, no?[/sp]

[QUOTE=lew06;52977123][sp]Rose was an absolutely wank character and had no purpose or likeable qualities, and her and Finn's entire casino plot was garbage and completely pointless and ultimately served no real higher purpose to the story. Also, Finn decided yet again that he was going to run away from The First Order and secretly bail in an escape pod even though he already came to terms with the fact he was done running from them in TFA? Then at the end decides to try and sacrifice himself which comes out of nowhere, but instead of committing to it and giving him some actual purpose in the movie for the first time, Rose saves him and declares her love for him, even though they've known each other for literally 12 hours.[/sp][/QUOTE] This is actually a problem area in the film, I think. I'm 100% sure they intended for Finn [sp]to be mostly selfish and only caring about Rey (the first thing he says after waking up is "Where's Rey"), that's why he wanted to bail, not because he was afraid of the First Order. This was actually a minor plot point in Force Awakens - he only went to the Starkiller Base so that he could "save" Rey, there's even a scene with him and Han Solo discussing this, where Solo says that it was incredibly irresponsible of him to not make his intentions clear, because the whole resistance is relying on their success to turn off the planet's shields.[/sp]. But this plotpoint was explained a bit too fast and wasn't really mentioned afterwards. So ultimately his arc, while pretty sloppily done, is about [sp]him understanding his place in all of this, as he said to Phasma, he's not just scum, he's Rebel scum[/sp] I might be defending a movie a bit too much, I understand, it's just that I really liked it, and I have nobody to discuss it with at the moment, so I'm doing it here EDIT: oops, sorry

[QUOTE=halfer;52977185]This is actually a problem area in the film, I think. I'm 100% sure they intended for Finn [sp]to be mostly selfish and only caring about Rey (the first thing he says after waking up is "Where's Rey"), that's why he wanted to bail, not because he was afraid of the First Order. This was actually a minor plot point in Force Awakens - he only went to the Starkiller Base so that he could "save" Rey, there's even a scene with him and Han Solo discussing this, where Solo says that it was incredibly irresponsible of him to not make his intentions clear, because the whole resistance is relying on their success to turn off the planet's shields.[/sp]. But this plotpoint was explained a bit too fast and wasn't really mentioned afterwards. So ultimately his arc, while pretty sloppily done, is about [sp]him understanding his place in all of this, as he said to Phasma, he's not just scum, he's Rebel scum[/sp] I might be defending a movie a bit too much, I understand, it's just that I really liked it, and I have nobody to discuss it with at the moment, so I'm doing it here[/QUOTE] Fix your quote spoiler tags

[sp]But even so that'd still mean he'd end up leaving everyone else on the ship on their own? I know he and Rey are the closest, but he still has a strong bond with Poe and BB-8, and I would imagine at least a sense of responsibility to try and work in their best interests as well[/sp] [editline]14th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=halfer;52977185]I might be defending a movie a bit too much, I understand, it's just that I really liked it, and I have nobody to discuss it with at the moment, so I'm doing it here[/QUOTE] and that's cool man, we're all entitled to our opinions and I don't expect everyone to agree with mine, I just had to get that rant off my chest

[QUOTE=halfer;52977090]By the way, wasn't it confirmed that [sp]a new lightsaber color would show up? The only new one was the one Kylo wielded in the flashback, and I'm fairly sure it was light blue, just as Anakin's[/sp]. Also, huge props for continuing to use practical effects when they could - Porg animatronics were really cool to see[/QUOTE] Yeah there wasn't from what I could see. [sp] Would have been cool if Force-Luke had a weird lightsaber. I don't get why he was wielding a random blue one (I didn't get a good look at the hilt, was it Anakins?) instead of his iconic green. [/sp] EDIT: Anyone else confused as to what Porgs were actually for? Because you could take them out and it changes NOTHING. They literally exist only to sell toys. At least Ewoks were important in the Battle of Endor. It's blatant toy marketing by Disney and it makes me a bit sick to see tbh. In fact I'm not sure they even say the word Porg in the actual film, the only reason anyone knows what they're called is because Disney is pushing them as a Toy. Urgh. edit 2: btw i really liked it and thought it was head and shoulders above TFA

[QUOTE=ElectronicG19;52977369]Yeah there wasn't from what I could see. [sp] Would have been cool if Force-Luke had a weird lightsaber. I don't get why he was wielding a random blue one (I didn't get a good look at the hilt, was it Anakins?) instead of his iconic green. [/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]it was vader's of course, as a hint to the audience to what's going on, because we just saw it get destroyed[/sp]

[QUOTE=krail9;52977397][sp]it was vader's of course, as a hint to the audience to what's going on, because we just saw it get destroyed[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp] yeeeaahh but i dont know why they didnt just have Luke use his lightsaber, its probably my favourite hilt/colour, would have been nice to have seen it in a context other than 'im about to murder my nephew in his sleep but then change my mind'. the biggest hint is that luke looks like he does in the temple flashback [/sp]

[QUOTE=lew06;52977123] [sp]But nope Ben all of a sudden goes "okay let's rule the Galaxy" and now he's a bad guy again and then at the end Luke says "there is a Jedi" and now it seems like Rey will carry that legacy on instead.[/sp][/QUOTE] Yeah i agree with this, Kinda pissed me off tbh. [sp] It's like lets kill off the sith, They're no longer a thing...but there is still a jedi. Goddamn is that stupid, The books should've been burnt and rey should've been something more even fucking yoda said the time of the jedi is over...goddamn it.[/sp]

I have a huge love for weaponry in the Star Wars films, without spoilers, does TLJ add anything cool to the mix, like the awesome F-11d from TFA?

[QUOTE=Zeos;52977542]I have a huge love for weaponry in the Star Wars films, without spoilers, does TLJ add anything cool to the mix, like the awesome F-11d from TFA?[/QUOTE] Captain Phasma's pistol looked and sounded pretty awesome, Unsure if it's an existing weapon in the universe though.