Star Wars Megathread Episode IV: A New Thread: UNTAGGED SPOILERS? 1 WEEK BAN - Film, Television and Music

[QUOTE=JXZ;52982662]there is no evidence that rey has piloted anything that goes higher that 3 feet above the ground.[/QUOTE] she fucking says it though. which is the same amount of evidence we have for luke being a great pilot too!!! [editline]16th December 2017[/editline] like, when she and Finn are gushing to each other after escaping the First Order she says she's flown before just not out of the atmosphere.

[QUOTE=halfer;52982600]Why does every character need to have an elaborate back story? Why does Snoke need it? [Sp]his only purpose is to be a signal that Kylo's changing and getting more confident in his strength[/sp] Why does Phasma need it? [Sp]her only purpose is to show that Finn has found his place in the world[/sp] Same thing about Knights of Ren, the only reason for them to show up would be because "well, they exist, gotta be in the movie then!". Kylo's ark in this film has no place for his "parents suck, the world is cruel" club. Just because it's Star Wars doesn't mean every fucking character needs to have their own mini Wikipedia synopsis in the movie. "Damn, those Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen characters are a joke! They never set them up properly! Who are they? Why is their nephew force sensitive and ao great at piloting? This is bullshit" Really, what am I missing? Emperor had nothing and it was perfectly fine, because he ultimately didn't matter[/QUOTE] Snoke [sp] works in the context of the movie, but doesn't in the context of the 3 trilogies. The emperor felt powerful because he trained Vador, who is shown as being an imposing fearful figure, making Sheev by extension more powerful. Snoke's only accomplishement is training a manchild prone to temper tantrum and meldowns, who got beaten by an untrained jedi[/sp] Phasma [sp] is presented as a badass military warrior, get fucked by a janitor. She doesn't need a backstory, she needs to act like she's supposed to.[/sp]

Someone pointed out that the title of the two films together spell out "The Force awakens the last Jedi" and [sp]I think this movie has made that concept solid. The Force awakened in Rey in the first film, and by the end of TLJ she -is- the last Jedi[/sp] [editline]16th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52982686][sp]Snoke actually literally needs an explanation because he is entirely out of place. He is an old and immensely powerful force user who has shitloads of resources and somehow formed a new Empire fresh off the corpse of the old one. Where in the ever loving fuck did he come from? Where was he during the six movies prior to Force Awakens? That actually needs to be explained because it makes no fucking sense.[/sp][/QUOTE] I feel as if we can expect a [sp]Snoke novel with his entire background[/sp] to come out, now that TLJ has been seen.

Like yeah, there's problems with Rey being pushed too hard way too fast, but like, then there's just being fucking stupid and ignoring things that are established IN THE FUCKING MOVIE

[QUOTE=bdd458;52982696]she fucking says it though. which is the same amount of evidence we have for luke being a great pilot too!!!!!!!![/QUOTE] Don't recall luke doing anything too fancy. He just went in a straight line, used the force, and hit a small target. Rey was doing all kinds of fancy flips.

[QUOTE=JXZ;52982745]Don't recall luke doing anything too fancy. He just went in a straight line, used the force, and hit a small target. Rey was doing all kinds of fancy flips.[/QUOTE] maybe rewatch Episode IV. He's shown to be an excellent Dog Fighter, is one of TWO pilots to actually survive the attack, and also, you know, made the impossible shot.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52982686][sp]Snoke actually literally needs an explanation because he is entirely out of place. He is an old and immensely powerful force user who has shitloads of resources and somehow formed a new Empire fresh off the corpse of the old one. Where in the ever loving fuck did he come from? Where was he during the six movies prior to Force Awakens? That actually needs to be explained because it makes no fucking sense.[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]I don't think Snoke needs explanation, you can understand him from just the movies alone. He's powerful, he has the force. But he's also basically a playboy, you can tell from his clothes how he acts. He's just there for the power, to be in control[/sp]

The problem I have with [sp]Snoke and Phasma is that, yet again, we kill off cool characters for stupid reasons (though phasma may not be dead).[/sp] Also, the BB-8 stuff [sp]with him taking out like, 8 guards and stealing an AT-ST was actually worse than prequel shit. At least when R2D2 had his "badass" moments in AotC and RotS they actually seemed feasible. When I watched BB-8 doing this shit I was like yeah okay this shit is ridiculous how does he conveniently have 100 coins stuffed in him with the convenient ability to shoot them all out. How was he able to get into a fucking AT-ST? By flying up into it? How does he have 50 little fingers in Poe's X-Wing to try to fix his targeting system?Like holy fuck how do you manage to do this worse than the prequels. Everything pissed me off about BB-8 in this film with how reminiscent of the prequels he was.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Butthurter;52982749]they still gave an unknown farmboy the biggest task of working in a team to take down a huge fucking planet-destroying evil base?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=bdd458;52982752]maybe rewatch Episode IV. He's shown to be an excellent Dog Fighter, is one of TWO pilots to actually survive the attack, and also, you know, made the impossible shot.[/QUOTE] We'd ought to remember that Luke was considered by his friends to be one the best pilots on Tatoonie. He used to fly constantly back home and hit moving targets that were smaller than TIEs. He like other pilots in the Rebellion are amazingly, not military trained as a matter of fact they literally took Luke on because he was there and was able to fly a star ship. Having Biggs vouch for him also got him in. Luke also made the impossible shot with the help of the Force, if you'd notice even the veteran pilot missed the shot despite having the targeting computer, they didn't literally curve themselves in like Luke's due the force acting upon them. Luke also wasn't an excellent dog fighter, IIRC he had people on his tail and had to be saved, as well saved one other pilot when he could. He wasn't flying around like Poe or Anakin doing constant rolls,divers, and maneuvers. I didn't see Luke at the Battle of Yavin, stop mid air, turn around and shooting three TIE fighters, he shot down maybe 2-3 TIEs.

People complain about Rey being a Mary-Sue but the real one is definitely [sp]BB-8[/sp]

[QUOTE=bdd458;52982752]maybe rewatch Episode IV. He's shown to be an excellent Dog Fighter, is one of TWO pilots to actually survive the attack, and also, you know, made the impossible shot.[/QUOTE] sure! here's the clip. [video=youtube;2WBG2rJZGW8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8[/video] I'd like to declare that i was wrong. he does something far more difficult than move in a straight line: he swerves around some! He survives because only 2 tie fighters ever actually shoot at him, one of which is piloted by darth vader (and because of plot armor, they don't hit anything important). And the trench shot is fine because it's been built up to for like half an hour at this point and it's the climax of the film. i have to go now, so let's talk about Rey bypassing the limiter or whatever. Let's think about the [I]purpose[/I] of that scene. When Abram's OC instantly fixes the Millennium Falcon while Han Solo is still struggling with it, the PURPOSE of this scene is NOT a straightforward explanation of how the falcon was fixed, or as a natural extension of Rey's mechanical skills. The purpose of this scene is to make (in Abram's opinion) the coolest star wars character gape in amazement over how cool his OC is, because that's how cool you should think his OC is. The excuse for HOW she does it doesn't actually matter. Everyone has a different idea of what a Mary Sue is, which makes discussion difficult, but I don't think that makes it a less valid concept. How i think of them, the type of scene described above is a crucial part of mary sues.

Also you seem to forget that they probably weren't expecting Luke to destroy the Death Star. He literally had it placed upon him because EVERYONE ELSE DIED.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52982784]People complain about Rey being a Mary-Sue but the real one is definitely [sp]BB-8[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]The porg scene with chewie was actually really funny but every time BB-8 did something I just wanted it to end.[/sp]

No TLJ spoilers in this, just TFA and other materials. [video]https://youtu.be/3XdYhYUEX3I[/video]

[sp]I kind of like the idea that luke was never as strong of a fighter but his strength as a jedi master was more toward enlightenment and mental focused force powers[/sp] [sp]oh.. and i actually kind of liked the porgs although i get they were just thrown in for the kids or something because they really don't have any significance. Then again this movie proves that not everything has a secret reason behind it and not everyone is actually someone elses mothers brothers sons dog or something[/sp]

[QUOTE=Jimesu_Evil;52982130][sp]When the camera panned past the back of his head I thought "Oh fuck off", but it genuinely brought a tear to my eye when I realised they were using a puppet and not CGI. I don't know if it's the original puppet or a reproduction, but if it's the latter then it's a damn good one.[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]I actually gasped when he showed up, cheesy as it sounds. I was reminded of Iroh returning in The Legend of Korra, funnily enough; that did have pretty strongly diminishing returns so I'm glad they kept him to a minimum. Also it'd have to be a recreation, foam puppets have a tendency to decay and I can't imagine Yoda would hold up for 30 years.[/sp]

Force literally makes you better at everything. Guides your actions, flows through shit so you understand where it goes, yada yada. Having the force in a roleplaying game might as well be +Force to all your rolls or something. It's pretty established. Oh, and on rogue one +++ Action is fucking awesome. Blasters are full of power, special effects are cool, people use strategy. + The Empire is terrifying. Stormtroopers aren't comic, Walkers are fucking terrifying, Vader is mindblowing. +There aren't too many jokes, and they land. -The lead is bad (Don't think they knew what they were doing with her, reshoots and edits lead to some personality changes), and the other characters aren't well developed. -Character deaths are contrived. -CGI characters be horrible. -First act isn't well put together. Lots of planet jumping. -Death star use. -I know a lot'll shout me down because they thought it was awesome, but the scene with the hammerhead broke suspension of disbelief for me. Yet to see TLJ, but R1's definitely better than the prequels and ROTJ (Though I think Ian Mcdiarmid's the greatest thing in star wars.) It's top 3 for me.

Frankly the martial aspects of the jedi are the least interesting part.

I wish Wedge Antilles and Lando Calrissian would come back

[QUOTE=halfer;52982600]Why does every character need to have an elaborate back story? Why does Snoke need it? [Sp]his only purpose is to be a signal that Kylo's changing and getting more confident in his strength[/sp] Why does Phasma need it? [Sp]her only purpose is to show that Finn has found his place in the world[/sp] Same thing about Knights of Ren, the only reason for them to show up would be because "well, they exist, gotta be in the movie then!". Kylo's ark in this film has no place for his "parents suck, the world is cruel" club. Just because it's Star Wars doesn't mean every fucking character needs to have their own mini Wikipedia synopsis in the movie. "Damn, those Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen characters are a joke! They never set them up properly! Who are they? Why is their nephew force sensitive and ao great at piloting? This is bullshit" Really, what am I missing? Emperor had nothing and it was perfectly fine, because he ultimately didn't matter[/QUOTE] halfer I need you to understand that I deeply respect you and other people in this thread liking The Last Jedi, but at the same time I feel like you are all getting increasingly irrational in your arguments in its favor. To be honest I wasn't the one who published an entire comic revolving around captain Phasma. And I was also not the one who wrote some canonical novels which helped paint a clearer picture of Supreme Leader Snoke. [sp]So am I so wrong in thinking that killing off these characters so suddendly wasn't a long-planned decision and was hastly done in The Last Jedi to clumsily pull a "Take that!" towards the people who thought The Force Awakens was a reharse of A New Hope? And/or to pull off a cheap narrative shock after another as a substitute for actual good writing?[/sp] Also the same people that today claim "backstory and character building are useless, we are better off without them" are the same people that shortly after the release of The Force Awakens were pushing their own theories about the main characters' backstories like it was nobody's business

[QUOTE=JXZ;52982788]sure! here's the clip. [video=youtube;2WBG2rJZGW8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8[/video] I'd like to declare that i was wrong. he does something far more difficult than move in a straight line: he swerves around some! He survives because only 2 tie fighters ever actually shoot at him, one of which is piloted by darth vader (and because of plot armor, they don't hit anything important). And the trench shot is fine because it's been built up to for like half an hour at this point and it's the climax of the film. i have to go now, so let's talk about Rey bypassing the limiter or whatever. Let's think about the [I]purpose[/I] of that scene. When Abram's OC instantly fixes the Millennium Falcon while Han Solo is still struggling with it, the PURPOSE of this scene is NOT a straightforward explanation of how the falcon was fixed, or as a natural extension of Rey's mechanical skills. The purpose of this scene is to make (in Abram's opinion) the coolest star wars character gape in amazement over how cool his OC is, because that's how cool you should think his OC is. The excuse for HOW she does it doesn't actually matter. Everyone has a different idea of what a Mary Sue is, which makes discussion difficult, but I don't think that makes it a less valid concept. How i think of them, the type of scene described above is a crucial part of mary sues.[/QUOTE] A Mary Sue is [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue#Origin_and_development_of_the_meaning"]literally a self insertion character[/URL]. Unless you think Abrams likes to imagine himself as a petite girl this is probably not the case here. I agree that the point of the first movie was to hand off the hero torch from the old guard to the new characters, and this was part of it. [editline]16th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=The Jack;52982863] -CGI characters be horrible. [/QUOTE] Aw come on. K-2SO was the bast character.

[QUOTE=EliaMoroes;52982885]halfer I need you to understand that I deeply respect you and other people in this thread liking The Last Jedi, but at the same time I feel like you are all getting increasingly irrational in your arguments in its favor. To be honest I wasn't the one who published an entire comic revolving around captain Phasma. And I was also not the one who wrote some canonical novels which helped paint a clearer picture of Supreme Leader Snoke. [sp]So am I so wrong in thinking that killing off these characters so suddendly wasn't a long-planned decision and was hastly done in The Last Jedi to clumsily pull a "Take that!" towards the people who thought The Force Awakens was a reharse of A New Hope? And/or to pull off a cheap narrative shock after another as a substitute for actual good writing?[/sp] Also the same people that today claim "backstory and character building are useless, we are better off without them" are the same people that shortly after the release of The Force Awakens were pushing their own theories about the main characters' backstories like it was nobody's business[/QUOTE] I think I just have a fundamentally different view of the whole franchise, and that results in a vastly different outlook on this film. I've always viewed Phasma as Boba Fett - a character so built up in promotional materials, that he seems to be almost infallible, while not actually having anything interesting about them (at least in the films). [sp]If you forget the promotional stuff, Phasma's death (or not death) makes sense, doesn't it? She's a commander, she's pretty ruthless, she's probably good in combat - that's all that's set up in TFA. Losing to an ex-Stormtrooper in a moment of emotional weakness (Finn didn't really beat her, she just kind of fell) doesn't seem all that impossible. I'm fairly sure Rian Johnson approched her like that.[/sp] [I]I do see the problem, of course[/I], Star Wars is a mega-franchise-toy-figure thing, and the movies, while important, aren't everything - and stuff has to make sense. If Phasma is built up as a mega-badass in a novel or a comic, why does she suck ass in the films? Because Johnson was given quite a lot of freedom to deal with the characters as he saw fit. But since I've never "consumed" anything Star Wars outside of the films, I have this perspective, and to me it's totally justified. But it is wrong though, I agree [B]EDIT:[/B] So I just tried to imagine being attached to the universe in a different way, like, enjoying the mechanics of politics inside the world, of the economy - instead of focusing exclusively on the character stuff in the Original Trilogy. Having this background, this movie is probably a pretty big slap in the face, I think I see it now.

I don't get the Mary Sue stuff, in tfa she's overly aggressive and constantly trying to shirk responsibility, afraid of leaving her Sandy shithole of de facto slavery life because it's familiar to her. She has some damn big character flaws. Just because she's a good pilot doesn't mean she's a Mary Sue.

I hope Phasma [sp]comes back with her armor fucking melted togheter with her body that would look wicked and be hilarious[/sp]

[sp]That shot of Phasma's eye reminded me of the Season 2 finale of Star Wars Rebels with Vader's mask broken, which in turn was inspired by an EU comic where something similar happened to Vader[/sp]

Nothing comes close to EP4 Luke in terms of Mary Sue, aside from EP1 Anakin with the abysmal space scene near the end. It would be like if in real life, you got this naive, uneducated farmer boy from Pakistan who manages to successfully pilot an experimental aircraft and successfully blows up the USS Nimitz because some old dead homeless dude whispered sweet words into his ears, all while ace fighters chase him. It's absurd. In comparison, a woman who's grown up on a rough, crime-riddled planet who's had to survive on her own and has a obession with military vehicles isn't NEARLY as far fetched IMO. Luke was sheltered as hell and always had Obi Wan and his uncle looking out for him, he'll know fuck all compared to what Rey would know.

[QUOTE=Tuskin;52982931][sp]That shot of Phasma's eye reminded me of the Season 2 finale of Star Wars Rebels with Vader's mask broken, which in turn was inspired by an EU comic where something similar happened to Vader[/sp][/QUOTE] On that note [sp]having her fall into a burning Star Destroyer reminded me of Grinky's death.[/sp]

Last Jedi is def the best of the new SW movies, the biggest problem IMO is that Finn and Poe could be one character and they have one do useful stuff and the other do nothing. Finns entire plot in this movie was useless and Poe just wasn't in most of TFA. This movie had 2:40 runtime and if they cut out the entire 30min Finn dumb casino heist it would have better pacing and not feel too long. People who praise Rogue One over the main movies blow my mind. The pacing in it was terrible and the character development was non-existent. People praise it for being original but the only redeeming part of it was the last 1/3rd and that was basically just rebel Endor infiltration 2.0.

[sp]Phasma better not be fucking dead[/sp]

I know right, I want them to bring [sp]her back again so she can yet again be completely superfluous and die in another hilariously crap way.[/sp]