Star Wars Megathread Episode IV: A New Thread: UNTAGGED SPOILERS? 1 WEEK BAN - Film, Television and Music

[QUOTE=Agent_Wesker;52982469][sp]This was dampened when he immediately dies afterwards for no reason (I guess Mark didn't want to do any more movies?)[/sp][/QUOTE] I think people have said before that [sp]spending that much effort to project himself that far and with the ability to physically interact with stuff would kill him. I also think Luke knew that. He not only provides time for everyone to escape then and there, but saying the line "I'll be seeing you kiddo" is gonna drive Ren mad and cause him to focus his efforts on finding Luke. He doesn't know Luke's dead. At least I hope that's it, and that ep 9 shows Ren wasting time hunting Luke down and letting the resistance recoup and rebuild a little.[/sp]

[QUOTE=stupid07er;52982998]I think people have said before that [sp]spending that much effort to project himself that far and with the ability to physically interact with stuff would kill him. I also think Luke knew that. He not only provides time for everyone to escape then and there, but saying the line "I'll be seeing you kiddo" is gonna drive Ren mad and cause him to focus his efforts on finding Luke. He doesn't know Luke's dead. At least I hope that's it, and that ep 9 shows Ren wasting time hunting Luke down and letting the resistance recoup and rebuild a little.[/sp][/QUOTE] People said that because [sp]Kylo himself says it to Rey, so he most probably knows Luke's gone. One the other hand, the second time I saw the movie, I noticed that after becoming so weak he can barely get himself on the pedestal, he actually gets his back straight and looks okay. I'm not sure if that's because he actually regained his strength and willingly became one with The Force; or because the filmmakers wanted Luke to die gracefully (probably latter); but it's still worth noting[/sp]

[QUOTE=Thlis;52982586]Having magic in a story doesn't excuse lazy writing.[/QUOTE] Using said magic to create and resolve a scene is not "lazy writing". "Lazy writing" would be to inadvertently introduce a problem in your story and, being out of idea, using a trope or some kind of cop-out to avoid being inventive with a solution. In TFA, all of the scenes in which Rey uses the force exist because they wanted to showcase her being a naturally good force user, which was built upon in TLJ and serves as the basis for her character through both films thus far and seemingly will continue to be a central aspect of her development. It's not "lazy writing", it's planning ahead to set up a character and their development. I'd also like to add that within the boundaries which the new trilogy establishes, everything she does in TFA is essentially babby shit and doesn't bring her anywhere near the kind of overpowered shit that the Jedi are thus far known to be able to pull, such as immortality. [editline]16th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=JXZ;52982788]When Abram's OC instantly fixes the Millennium Falcon while Han Solo is still struggling with it, the PURPOSE of this scene is NOT a straightforward explanation of how the falcon was fixed, or as a natural extension of Rey's mechanical skills. The purpose of this scene is to make (in Abram's opinion) the coolest star wars character gape in amazement over how cool his OC is, because that's how cool you should think his OC is. The excuse for HOW she does it doesn't actually matter.[/quote] I mean unless you have written proof that Abrams specifically designed the character that way, I think everyone just go for the much more straight forward explanation of "she's characterized as good with ships and also they needed a way for her to bond with Han Solo in a way that made sense". [QUOTE=JXZ;52982788]Everyone has a different idea of what a Mary Sue is, which makes discussion difficult, but I don't think that makes it a less valid concept. How i think of them, the type of scene described above is a crucial part of mary sues.[/QUOTE] Mary Sue is kind of a well defined thing and you're the one haphazardly fucking with the definition to make this one specific character fit in, while also carefully making other characters you like not fit in. Rey isn't a mary sue because she's got fairly evident flaws and those flaws don't just exist as consequence of her qualities, they're legitimate character flaws which are developed upon and are an integral part of her character. Sure a lot of those have come out in TLJ over TFA but the same was true for Luke, he was kind of a braindead farmboy with ambition and he only became fleshed out in the second film.

I feel like anyone complaining about the humour in this movie hasn't actually seen the OT or at least barely remembers it. I rewatched RotJ last night because TLJ put me in a Star Wars mood and it had some genuinely funny moments. RotJ in particular Han is basically just there just to be funny.

[QUOTE=stupid07er;52982998]I think people have said before that [sp]spending that much effort to project himself that far and with the ability to physically interact with stuff would kill him. I also think Luke knew that. He not only provides time for everyone to escape then and there, but saying the line "I'll be seeing you kiddo" is gonna drive Ren mad and cause him to focus his efforts on finding Luke. He doesn't know Luke's dead. At least I hope that's it, and that ep 9 shows Ren wasting time hunting Luke down and letting the resistance recoup and rebuild a little.[/sp][/QUOTE] Something else to consider: [sp]When Rey and Kylo started seeing each other, Kylo says "You can't be doing this, the effort would kill you." So as easy as it looks for Luke to project himself across the galaxy, it might take an insane amount of effort. He also hasn't been connected to the Force for how ever many years so for him to pull a trick like that is a really big deal.[/sp]

I think part of the reason Rey is called a mary sue is precisely because a lot of the challenges she faces are diminished, though I'm not sure mary sue is quite the right word for it. It's hard to feel like a character is out of their comfort zone when they are established to be an excellent pilot and an excellent fighter and are able to force trick stormtroopers (which I somewhat assumed to be difficult) with zero training in the force and is able to read Kylo Rens mind(?) with zero training and is able to beat Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel at the end of the movie. There might well be explanations for some of these things, but it doesn't make them more compelling to watch.

Depends on your point of view I presume, but shit like her defeating Kylo Ren in a duel is instrumental in the establishment of the conflict between those two characters and literally one of the first things developed upon in TLJ. It's a humiliating defeat for Kylo because he's not nearly as experienced as he thought he was and is also a giant raging manbaby who's hiding behind a quickly failing cloak of artificial intimidation. Like, Kylo Ren in TFA is written as an entitled fucking cunt who's never actually faced a challenge in his life and thus instantly assumes he's the best, and he eats shit when he meets someone who's got more raw power than he does, thus establishing an immediate relation between the two characters which the story can use to not only further the plot but the development of these two people in particular.

is bb-8 a mary sue? I can think of several fuckups that c-3p0 and r2-d2 have done but that little orange fucker is flawless at everything

[QUOTE=Chris Morris;52982638]Honestly I'm not even capable of mustering up the courage to let my heart yearn for the Star Wars brand anymore. As soon as it became a Disney-owned brand I knew it was going to become a McDonald's-style franchise even moreso than Lucas had already made it, and from what I've heard of the story and from what TFA was I'm now dead certain on that belief. Cut out 'Kylo', splice in 'Snoke', slap a producer's name on it, get a safe-and-harmless director with little personal vision beyond the popular ideal of the series, and wheel it out as a bi-Christmas funfair. Seemingly harmless, but ultimately it's reductive and a creative quagmire. A black hole that absorbs talent and potential and consumers' time and money. I suppose a lot of the burden is also on people who know it's the same fucking shit with a different lick of paint, but at the same time, the studios market these kinds of movies so fucking voraciously (and use such underhanded tactics as viralling and paid fans) that I honestly can't say the blame isn't at the very least more on the part of the studios. Oh well. There will always be culture out there for me, I suppose, and if not, my dissociative episodes (which have been growing in frequency) will provide me endless entertainment. Rest in peace, Star Wars. You were never the pinnacle of art, but you used to have something to offer.[/QUOTE] The new movie is sort of a middle finger to JJ Abrams' entire shtick, but whatever.

[QUOTE=meppers;52983035]is bb-8 a mary sue? I can think of several fuckups that c-3p0 and r2-d2 have done but that little orange fucker is flawless at everything[/QUOTE] He's just a real good boy.

It's kind of baffling to me how many of the criticisms about those films tends to fade away once you actually start paying attention to the film and to the more nuanced stuff that it's using for characterization. Like all of the complaints about Rey just magically being good at ship repairs when the film spends quite a lot of time establishing [I]why[/I] she's good at those things in a way that actually makes sense. It's like people have a cinemasins level attention span and ignore crucial plot elements just to complain about their absence.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52982922]I don't get the Mary Sue stuff, in tfa she's overly aggressive and constantly trying to shirk responsibility, afraid of leaving her Sandy shithole of de facto slavery life because it's familiar to her. She has some damn big character flaws. Just because she's a good pilot doesn't mean she's a Mary Sue.[/QUOTE] For anyone it's just unusual how competent and good she is. Anakin when we first seem the only skill in the Force he has is pre-cognition but it's not something he KNOWS he's doing. Luke's first interaction is actually deflecting a blaster shot with his light saber but the biggest first use is his shooting proton torpedoes into the exhaust port. Even then Obi-Wan was telling him to reach out with his feelings. Rey's first successful use of the Force was to successfully mind-trick a first order trooper, without have ANY knowledge of a Jedi Mind trick and then resisting Kylo's probing of her mind. Her naturally resisting Kylo's attempts to get information is fine because it's one those innate things all force users demonstrate, however her mindtricking a stormtrooper without training and naturally doing it is stretching it. Then her beating someone whose trained for YEARS AND YEARS WITH A LIGHTSABER. Sabine had to be trained by Ezra and friggin Kanan to use it. Ezra had to be trained by Kanan who wasn't but a padawan when Order 66 happened. Finn literally swung wildly and used the lightsaber most way people would and just swung for the fences, but Finn was a trained stormtrooper who in junior novels IIRC used those riot trooper batons. Rey literally used a stick in the desert to hit people, but she was just entirely able to go toe to toe with someone that not only got lightsaber training from Luke, but from Snoke too? Come on now.

She does the mindtrick thing because she knows a bunch about the Jedi, she's grown up on legends and stories and she's further enabled in her perception of them when Han Solo flat out says that all of those stories were true just as they were told. Of fucking course she was going to try to use a jedi mind trick on someone and considering the fact she just resisted some angsty fuckboy probing her mind I don't see how it's so outlandish that she'd be able to use a modicum of authority on a single stormtrooper. As for the duel, once again, there were [I]so many[/I] factors in her favor and against Kylo, including the fact her opponent was : - Hurt - Cocky - Told to bring her alive - Completely incapable of focusing due to anger, injuries and generally being real fucking butthurt

Didn't they say that every character from The Force Awakens would appear in the Last Jedi? Because I sure as fuck didn't see [sp]Han Solo[/sp]

Me, personally, I wouldn't be as annoyed about Phasma [sp]"dying"[/sp] / getting a whopping 5 mins of screen time if they didn't keep hyping her up as if they were actually going to explore her character or something. I remember a large part of the interviews shortly after TFA came out were about how Phasma was going to be explored as a character or given a storyline, did they just forget about that?

Also nobody complained that Luke just magically learned how to mind trick people after just lifting a few rocks with yoda for a day.

[QUOTE=JXZ;52982662]there is no evidence that rey has piloted anything that goes higher that 3 feet above the ground.[/QUOTE] In Force Awakens after the whole chase between the Falcon and the TIE Fighters, she literally says, "I've flown ships before but I've never left the planet."

[QUOTE=Rossy167;52983025]I feel like anyone complaining about the humour in this movie hasn't actually seen the OT or at least barely remembers it. I rewatched RotJ last night because TLJ put me in a Star Wars mood and it had some genuinely funny moments. RotJ in particular Han is basically just there just to be funny.[/QUOTE] ROTJ is the worst OT movie and people have never liked it much besides the Throne Room scene.

[QUOTE=dillspears;52983080]ROTJ is the worst OT movie and people have never liked it much besides the Throne Room scene.[/QUOTE] That seems kind of irrelevant, so the movies have their humour.

Hey, I'm a nerd that read Before The Awakening Rey snuck into the Falcon to practice with the controls and mechanics. [QUOTE]“I’d spent some time poking around all the ships parked at the outpost. Mostly at night. It was a way to learn some things. I was careful, and nobody much cared anyway, since I never took anything or tried anything.” She brightened. “Made it a lot easier when we filched this one. Though it wasn’t my first choice.”[/QUOTE] She also built herself a flight simulator out of old parts of a Y-wing to learn how to fly. [QUOTE]“She’d jury-rigged a computer using pieces scavenged from several crashed fighters over the years, including a cracked but still-usable display from an old BTL-A4 Y-wing. There were no radio communications to speak of—no way to transmit or receive and, frankly, nobody she wanted to talk to anyway. On the wreckage of a Zephra-series hauler, though, she’d once found a stash of data chips, and after painstakingly going through each and every one of them, she’d discovered three with their programs intact; one of them, to her delight, had been a flight simulator. So when she wasn’t sleeping or just sitting and listening to the storm or tinkering at her workbench, she flew. It was a good program, or at least she imagined it was. She could select any number of ships to fly, from small repulsor-driven atmospheric craft to a wide variety of fighters, all the way up to an array of stock freighters. She could set destinations, worlds she’d never visited and never imagined she would, and scenarios, from speed runs to obsta“cle courses to system failures.” “At first, she’d been truly horrible at it, quite literally crashing a few seconds after takeoff every time. With nothing else to do, and with a perverse sense of determination that she would not allow herself to be beaten by a machine that she herself had put together with her own hands, she learned. She learned so much that there was little the program could throw her way that would challenge her now. She’d gotten to the point where she would, quite deliberately, do everything she could think of to make things hard on herself, just to see if she could get out of it. Full-throttle atmospheric reentry with repulsor-engine failure? No sweat. Multiple hull breach deep-space engine flameout? A walk in the park.”[/QUOTE] tl;dr, Rey p much played Rogue Squadron for a few years and figured it out [editline].[/editline] Also you can't be annoyed about Rey knowing how to fly if you didn't give a shit about a literal 10 year old being the only human that can pilot a horse carriage strapped to Huge Engines

[QUOTE=Skyward;52983060]Also nobody complained that Luke just magically learned how to mind trick people after just lifting a few rocks with yoda for a day.[/QUOTE] Time works differently on planets so encompassed with the Force,this coming from Pablo Hildalgo. Basically saying that while it appears that it was only a few days it easily is either a few weeks or a few months relatively. Remember that the Falcon was without lightspeed when they left Hoth, so it would've taken them some time to actually get to Bespin compared to Luke who actually had a hyper drive on his X-Wing that worked. Luke also went back to complete his training with the FORMER GRAND MASTER OF THE JEDI ORDER. It's entirely reasonable that Yoda taught him how to actually mind trick someone, compared Rey only hearing stories and never have seen it ever. Luke saw it first hand with Obi-Wan. [editline]16th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=LZTYBRN;52983101]Hey, I'm a nerd that read Before The Awakening Rey snuck into the Falcon to practice with the controls and mechanics. She also built herself a flight simulator out of old parts of a Y-wing to learn how to fly. tl;dr, Rey p much played Rogue Squadron for a few years and figured it out [editline].[/editline] Also you can't be annoyed about Rey knowing how to fly if you didn't give a shit about a literal 10 year old being the only human that can pilot a horse carriage strapped to Huge Engines[/QUOTE] IIRC Watto said Anakin wrecked his last pod racer, implying that Anakin HAS used the pod-racers before. He just is one, a literal kid, and two a Human, and Humans cannot use pod-racers unless they had something like a 6th sense or w/e.

one of the best explanations ive read for kylo ren [QUOTE=some dude][sp]I think this is a gross mischaracterization of Kylo Ren. He doesn't throw tantrums over minor shit. For all of TLJ's flaws, it ended up making Kylo the most interesting, nuanced character in the entire series. He lacks validation. Completely. So when he fails to earn validation or someone doesn't validate him, he acts rashly. Look at it this way: His parents don't think they can help him, so they send him to Luke Skywalker, his hero uncle, for training. This is abandonment #1. Luke Skywalker trains him and ultimately finds him to be too full of darkness to the point where Luke feels his only recourse is to literally murder him. Luke felt like he had to do this regardless of what Han and Leia felt, what the galaxy would think about the hero Jedi Master killing his own nephew, etc. It turns out to be a misunderstanding, but that kind of thing mixed with the dark side surely made Kylo act incredibly rashly, which he did. So he gets to Snoke, and Snoke goes, "You don't need to live up to the legacy of your mother, father and uncle. They're not the real heroes. The real hero was Darth Vader, and you can be just like him." Here's where he starts to earn validation. Not only that, but Darth Vader is a figure that it's impossible for Kylo to disappoint. Snoke remains the gatekeeper to this validation, though, and it is possible to disappoint him. Finally, you get Snoke so fed up with Kylo he goes "You're a big bitch and you'll never be like Vader take that helmet off you fucking piece of shit." and finally, Kylo has literally nobody helping him. He's by himself. He goes to Rey for this validation and she starts to provide it. He decides to kill Snoke because now he has Rey and she believes in him, and he thinks if he can just get them through this and explain his point of view to her, she'll stick with him. etc etc and so on, you guys saw the movie. I really like him.[/sp][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Rossy167;52983025]I feel like anyone complaining about the humour in this movie hasn't actually seen the OT or at least barely remembers it. I rewatched RotJ last night because TLJ put me in a Star Wars mood and it had some genuinely funny moments. RotJ in particular Han is basically just there just to be funny.[/QUOTE] ehhh nah. I definitely got the "Marvel movie" vibe that other people have been mentioning, where a lot of dramatic moments are undercut by a joke. [sp]Also I thought the opening scene with Poe razzing Hux went on way too long,[/sp] I expected the joke to be done at a certain point but it went on for another 10 seconds longer. Having those weird marvel style joke moments felt really awkward in a Star Wars movie

The new star wars movies are pretty forgettable. They're like marvel movies; something I'd watch once but not really great or even good pieces of cinema worth watching more than once. I honestly think the movies are just advertisements for the merchandising, which makes more money.

[QUOTE=gameplaya89;52983112]one of the best explanations ive read for kylo ren[/QUOTE] That’s just how I saw it

[T]https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/912nuFVA9SL.jpg[/T] I liked Holdo's corvette. Would be nice to see more of these things show up in IX.

[QUOTE=Blueleaf;52983175][T]https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/912nuFVA9SL.jpg[/T] I liked Holdo's corvette. Would be nice to see more of these things show up in IX.[/QUOTE] 'Nebula-C' Why did I expect anything else? According to the expanded lore the First Order uses Nebulon-Ks [editline]16th December 2017[/editline] There are also preview images of Kylo's TIE Fighter and the A-Wing on the amazon page. [URL]https://www.amazon.ca/Star-Wars-Last-Incredible-Cross-Sections/dp/1465455523[/URL] [editline]16th December 2017[/editline] Well that book makes the fact that Nebulon-Bs were Imperial canon again.

[QUOTE=Thlis;52982586]Ignoring that in ANH Luke has lines which explain why he's able to make the shot/his piloting skills. Also ignoring that the Empire let them escape the Death Star, which was pointed out by Leia in the movie. If ANH was TFA then Luke would have been instantly better at piloting/repairing the millennium falcon than Han. Luke would be mind tricking the Stormtroopers before being told what the force is, and before the end of the movie would saber duel Vader and win before escaping the Death Star. [/QUOTE] See, I don't have some weird chip on my shoulder about luke as a protagonist, but If I did in the same way some people seem to with Rey- it would be just as easy to pick holes in his story. So Luke shot some dessert rats with the onboard guns while he flew a T-16 skyhopper in his spare time- and that means he's able to hop into an unfamiliar ship and go toe to toe with ace imperial pilots, including evading the fire of Darth Vader himself where several more experienced pilots could not. Flying a skyhooper also apparently prepared him for shoot-outs with the Empire's well trained army of stormtroopers. Also, your comment about magic not excluding lazy writing could easily be applied to luke in the Death star trench, so what he turns off his targeting computer and just ~magically~ hits his target? how lazy!. You also seem to forget that Han Solo didn't build the Falcon with his bare hands lmao- he won it in a scoundrels game of chance- it's even played for laughs in the Original Trilogy that Han doesn't understand how to repair the thing despite pretending to be an expert on it. Whereas Rey has grown up as a starship scavenger indentured to a criminal who stole the Falcon, for her entire life. Unkar Plutt has likely had her working on his ship, off and on, for her entire life- how is it some amazing feat that she knows about a modification to the falcon, [i] that she was likely made to install personally[/i] when a previous owner didn't?. Sure Rey sounds like a Mary Sue if you intentionally make her out to be one while also omitting all of her flaws, but lets not pretend there was a reason this whole thing caught any traction besides idiots on the internet bleating about ~grrrr fucking sjws putting a woman in my films~ because they literally have to invent some new SJW conspiracy each week to keep their Youtube channel going. [img]https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/25467784_2051322701818269_1647942212_o.jpg?oh=ef7297ce8d03465d793f51153429c327&oe=5A3802D1[/img]

Saw the movie, it was great. Not amazing as there were some problems and lots of inconsistency but man, the [sp]Hyperspace Jump into Snoke's Ship was amazing[/sp]

The T-16 and X-Wing are both made by Incom. The control scheme is very similar which let Luke actually fly it despite only just getting into it. In Legends, the T-16 was used by the Rebellion as a trainer for the X-Wing.