Star Wars Megathread Episode IV: A New Thread: UNTAGGED SPOILERS? 1 WEEK BAN - Film, Television and Music

[QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;52990039][sp]I considered saying vaguely-Asian, but that sounded too... wishywashy, I guess. The point is still that it was a sub-plot meant for the Chinese censors carried by an Asian character, both very obtrusively shoved in to the film. [/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]I find that very unlikely, plus isn't there tension between China and Vietnam? If they really wanted to do that they'd have hired a Chinese actress[/sp] [editline]19th December 2017[/editline] [video]https://youtu.be/DHds1LU2zIA[/video]

I might get flak for this but Daisy Ridley acting had been kinda 'meh' she's not bad or good, but I simply don't feel like 'woah she's great as the main character!'

[QUOTE=Ignhelper;52990321]I might get flak for this but Daisy Ridley acting had been kinda 'meh' she's not bad or good, but I simply don't feel like 'woah she's great as the main character!'[/QUOTE] She doesn't have a lot of good personality quirks. Her best moment in TLJ is when [sp]she shows up to her first Jedi lesson[/sp], because seeing her sort of unsure of herself made her feel more like a human and not [PROTAGONIST]. Her character stuff is interesting (specifically [sp]everything to do with Kylo[/sp]), but Daisy Ridley doesn't really have much to work with beyond being determined.

[QUOTE=GunFox;52988948]Space combat in Star wars is essentially a WWII movie. Which is why I can accept most of it. But that entire scene hinged on dropping gravity bombs in space. Hinged on it when a swarm of space dive bombers would better fit the WWII motif and is anything but boring. [/QUOTE] Know whats cooler than the same ship we've seen in 4 movies and 37 video games? A space B-17 we've never seen before. Plus [sp]there was no scene where the rebel fleet was bombarding anything in the entire movie. The only scene in the movie where these rad as shit space B-17's fit was when they were taking on the dreadnought[/sp] Again, it's Star Wars. It's never been practical, it's never been realistic, it's never made total sense from a technical standpoint. It's supposed to be cool with a fun-for-all-ages adventure story mixed imbetween. "Space bombers? really? thats so dumb. Theres no way they would work in space, why not just use the Y-Wing" if they used the Y-wing "Ugh, are you serious? they showed the Y-wing again? Why don't we ever see anything new in these movies? It's so pandering." [editline]19th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=LZTYBRN;52988897][sp]My thing about the bombers is if they're carrying so much fucking munitions, why are they so poorly shielded and traveling in a straight line instead of a staggered phalanx or something? Why did they even start arming them while they were still so far away from the actual drop point? or a line maybe? at least something so they could have actually accounted for one possibly getting disabled and running into another, or just debris in general. The bomber design is cool but it seems impractical on basically every front. Another complaint: I feel like they could have just made Rose and the female A-wing pilot the same character. Why did they even introduce that pilot and give her multiple close-ups, then just kill her off in an explosion? It's somewhere they probably could have trimmed the fat and just cast one person to fill both roles. Rose's story basically picks up right when she dies anyway. And she was cute[/sp] :frown:[/QUOTE] [sp]Because if the bombers were properly guarded and they all made it back home, there would have been no tension or risk in the scene, and the First Order would look like a bunch of retards that the rebels should have no trouble dealing with at all. Why would the rebels be on the run from a group that can't even kill a couple bombers directly over one of their prized dreadnought ships? And yea Rose sucked. She was basically a non-character that was shoe-horned in. But Star Wars has always done a thing where it does close-ups on non-character pilots who inevitably die in explosions. It's a way to make deaths of non-characters carry weight, as opposed to some random A-wing getting obliterated.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52990397]Know whats cooler than the same ship we've seen in 4 movies and 37 video games? A space B-17 we've never seen before. Plus [sp]there was no scene where the rebel fleet was bombarding anything in the entire movie. The only scene in the movie where these rad as shit space B-17's fit was when they were taking on the dreadnought[/sp] Again, it's Star Wars. It's never been practical, it's never been realistic, it's never made total sense from a technical standpoint. It's supposed to be cool with a fun-for-all-ages adventure story mixed imbetween. "Space bombers? really? thats so dumb. Theres no way they would work in space, why not just use the Y-Wing" if they used the Y-wing "Ugh, are you serious? they showed the Y-wing again? Why don't we ever see anything new in these movies? It's so pandering." [editline]19th December 2017[/editline] [sp]Because if the bombers were properly guarded and they all made it back home, there would have been no tension or risk in the scene, and the First Order would look like a bunch of retards that the rebels should have no trouble dealing with at all. Why would the rebels be on the run from a group that can't even kill a couple bombers directly over one of their prized dreadnought ships? And yea Rose sucked. She was basically a non-character that was shoe-horned in. But Star Wars has always done a thing where it does close-ups on non-character pilots who inevitably die in explosions. It's a way to make deaths of non-characters carry weight, as opposed to some random A-wing getting obliterated.[/sp][/QUOTE] the movie panders a shit ton already, you really think the inclusion of the y-wing would be the tipping point?

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;52990418]the movie panders a shit ton already, you really think the inclusion of the y-wing would be the tipping point?[/QUOTE] Naw, but I would rather have rad as shit space B-17's doing rad as shit space B-17 stuff instead of Y-wings doing Y-wing stuff for the umpteenth time. My complaint against Y-wings being included isn't because it would be pandering, my complaint is that it wouldn't be as exciting, cool, or fun as rad as shit space B-17s. "Hmmm, how can we remove all tension, consequence, and weight from this scene? Oh I know, lets replace the rad as shit space B-17s with Y-wings."

I don't have an issue with the bombers' bombs relying on the internal gravity on the bombers to drop. I have a problem with them parking the bombers inches from eachother so that the one that exploded while armed took out half the column by itself in the explosion. Should have spread the bombers way out.

[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;52990396]She doesn't have a lot of good personality quirks. Her best moment in TLJ is when [sp]she shows up to her first Jedi lesson[/sp], because seeing her sort of unsure of herself made her feel more like a human and not [PROTAGONIST]. Her character stuff is interesting (specifically [sp]everything to do with Kylo[/sp]), but Daisy Ridley doesn't really have much to work with beyond being determined.[/QUOTE] Even in Murder on the orient express her character was bland af if this goes on she'll be like emma watson. [editline]20th December 2017[/editline] [sp]the next movie is gonna be an even bigger clusterfuck,with the messed up plot in TLJ.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Trekintosh;52990487]I don't have an issue with the bombers' bombs relying on the internal gravity on the bombers to drop. I have a problem with them parking the bombers inches from eachother so that the one that exploded while armed took out half the column by itself in the explosion. Should have spread the bombers way out.[/QUOTE] They were all going for the same, relatively small target. Spreading out decreases chances of success as much as it increases chances of survival. It also makes it more intense and exciting [i][b]because it's a movie[/i][/b] [editline]19th December 2017[/editline] "Lazer swords, space flight, faster-than-light travel, faster-than-light-travel-tracking, lazer guns, force fields, space magic, deflector shields, gravity in zero-gravity, all cool. Not gonna over-analyze any of that and see if its actually practical or realistic. Wait space bombers? theres no way that would work in real life [i]or[/i] my sci-fantasy movie where all of the above are normal and common things!"

Laser swords, faster than light travel, the Force, etc are all entirely fictional, with no basis in reality, so they can easily be written off by anyone with a decent suspension of disbelief, but things like the bombers and anything that's based off something that exists in reality, should at least try to be believable. I like films that manage to blend fantasy and reality in a cohesive manner, it makes the fantasy aspect feel more real. So in my mind there's nothing wrong with trying to make the film believable and realistic in some parts while still including over the top fantasy. It's not like you can only have one or the other.

-snip-

I was disappointed by it because I like y-wings and was hoping to see a modernized y-wing get the same treatment as the x-wing. That's the only reason :v:

Fuck I can't unsee this now [sp]http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Goldmember.jpg Young Snoke[/sp]

A thought on the Leia thing: [sp]Lots of people say it was a pointless scene and her powers needed establishing beforehand, but what if it was there to establish her powers for Episode IX? The Jedi have basically no leadership now, maybe Leia was supposed to help mentor them in the next film. Except, well... :([/sp]

[sp]I mean it's been ~30 years since the events of RotJ there was no doubt in my mind that she would have learned some force abilities from Luke to defend herself or to use in an emergency. I thought the scene was pretty cheesy but it made sense.[/sp]

good god it is confusing having two threads for discussing your reaction to The Last Jedi. gonna go ahead and merge this to the film forum thread in a little bit, the articles 4 days old anyways.

[QUOTE=Killuah;52986707]The full movie theater let out a collective moan of annoyance when [sp]Leia became a Disney princess with superpowers, surviving space freeze, floating and door busting Superhuman strength[/sp][/QUOTE] I actually liked this scene because both elements in it are already established in universe. [SP]1.Leia is (and I don't know why people forget this so easily), a Skywalker. And as a result, force sensitive. She might not be a full on Jedi but she has every capability Luke has and there's no reason she wouldn't have trained that ability in the decades since Endor. 2.Jedi are capable of moving objects (including themselves) in unnatural ways. Discounting the prequels, you can still see this in the Original Trilogy when Luke jumps unnaturally high out of the carbon freezer. 3.This one is an expanded universe element so complain about that if you want but one particular force power is that Jedi are capable of withholding their breath longer than average. This allows them to survive for longer than others in environments that lack air or environments filled with poisonous gases. Long story short it is entirely within Leia's means to do everything that happened in that scene and it's not even that much of a stretch. Compare to lifting a spaceship out of water, holding laser blasts in the air, casting fucking lightning out of your hands, choking people, so on, does it really stand out that much that Jedis can hold their breath longer than average and move your body?[/sp]

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;52990678]Laser swords, faster than light travel, the Force, etc are all entirely fictional, with no basis in reality, so they can easily be written off by anyone with a decent suspension of disbelief, but things like the bombers and anything that's based off something that exists in reality, should at least try to be believable. I like films that manage to blend fantasy and reality in a cohesive manner, it makes the fantasy aspect feel more real. So in my mind there's nothing wrong with trying to make the film believable and realistic in some parts while still including over the top fantasy. It's not like you can only have one or the other.[/QUOTE] Nitpicking that the bombers in space don't operate like bombers in real life is the epitome of nitpicking. Complain about this movie for its complete mess of a plot, no direction, bad side stories, no character depth or development, or any of its other immense problems. Dont complain that the space bombers were too close in formation.

I don't have a problem with the concept, [sp]it just looked really stupid.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52990864]I actually liked this scene because both elements in it are already established in universe. [SP]1.Leia is (and I don't know why people forget this so easily), a Skywalker. And as a result, force sensitive. She might not be a full on Jedi but she has every capability Luke has and there's no reason she wouldn't have trained that ability in the decades since Endor. 2.Jedi are capable of moving objects (including themselves) in unnatural ways. Discounting the prequels, you can still see this in the Original Trilogy when Luke jumps unnaturally high out of the carbon freezer. 3.This one is an expanded universe element so complain about that if you want but one particular force power is that Jedi are capable of withholding their breath longer than average. This allows them to survive for longer than others in environments that lack air or environments filled with poisonous gases. Long story short it is entirely within Leia's means to do everything that happened in that scene and it's not even that much of a stretch. Compare to lifting a spaceship out of water, holding laser blasts in the air, casting fucking lightning out of your hands, choking people, so on, does it really stand out that much that Jedis can hold their breath longer than average and move your body?[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]Simply put, lack of breathable air isn't the only downside to being exposed in space and that's the only thing you've managed to explain away.[/sp]

I liked the movie. I spent a week rewatching the original trilogy and the force awakens in preparation and with all those fresh in my mind, I felt that TLJ was the first of the new movies to truly feel like a real spiritual successor to Star Wars. It didn't feel like it was living in the shadow of the OT as much as TFA does. Overall I didn't have too many problems with it. I wish they found a way to get Snoke's backstory in. [SP]When he dies, it's clever how they do it and all, but it leaves you with a sense of confusion. Like, ok, he's dead. But who the fuck is he? Just some guy with force powers as far as anyone knows. Now, if we are to understand Snoke, it'll have to be post-mortem, and it's not really going to be as satisfying as it could have been. I like the theme of moving on and getting over the past. It has value both in the story sense (Star Wars could really use more grey in it's morality a la KotOR 2) but in a real life sense there's a feeling of addressing the originals and moving on instead of living in their shadow. I don't know how I feel about that manifesting by killing off all the characters we've loved for like 30 years, but on the other hand it forces them to be creative and move on rather than wheeling out the old crew forever. Leia will probably be killed in the next one, offscreen or something, because of Carrie Fisher's passing. That leaves Chewbacca, C3-PO, and R2-D2 as the last vestiges of the original trilogy. I like that! That means we're now stuck with a Star Wars that lacks the characters we're inclined to hang on to. And that means we have to build Star Wars anew with characters that can hold their own without using the originals as a crutch. That said, we need stronger characters than the ones we have. Luke's arc in the original trilogy was fantastic. In the first movie he's essentially got the mind of a teenager. His heart's in the right place but he's childish and immature. In the second movie he has grown up some but he remains impatient and bullheaded, and that gets beat out of him over the movie. In the third it feels as if he has fully matured in to a capable, adult leader, and a real Jedi. Unfortunately, there's no such character arc happening in the new trilogy that I can see, beyond Rey realizing that her parents were nobodies and realizing Luke wasn't all he's chalked up to be.[/sp] Overall I like the direction they're taking. They burned some bridges but those bridges needed to be burned if they're going to get anywhere substantial. They took a torch to the Star Wars establishment so they can strike out on their own creatively and I approve.

[QUOTE=Louis;52990893][sp]Simply put, lack of breathable air isn't the only downside to being exposed in space and that's the only thing you've managed to explain away.[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]she also got a bit chilly[/sp]

is she force sensitive because [sp]she's a skywalker, or can anyone just be force sensitive like the movie implies? i'm getting mixed signals here. hereditary, random? all of the above? next it'll be an std[/sp] [editline]20th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Louis;52990893][sp]Simply put, lack of breathable air isn't the only downside to being exposed in space and that's the only thing you've managed to explain away.[/sp][/QUOTE] yeah she literally [sp]suffocated AND froze over! so she used the force to LITERALLY REVIVE HERSELF FROM DEATH and UNDO THE EFFECTS OF SPACE! i can't buy this for a second.[/sp] [editline]20th December 2017[/editline] [sp]if the force is strong enough to bring people back from the dead or straight up prevent death why can't anyone more powerful do anything like this?[/sp]

[QUOTE=Rusty100;52990913][sp]if the force is strong enough to bring people back from the dead or straight up prevent death why can't anyone more powerful do anything like this?[/sp][/QUOTE] have you ever heard the tragedy of darth plagueis the wise? [sp]i thought not. it's not a story the jedi would tell you[/sp]

[QUOTE=Louis;52990893][sp]Simply put, lack of breathable air isn't the only downside to being exposed in space and that's the only thing you've managed to explain away.[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]Unless you intend to invoke real life scientific aspects of space beyond lack of oxygen (Which I think is a pointless endeavor considering the whole sound in space thing) then that's all I feel needs to be said. Besides, isn't it the case that a human being actually can survive for a very short time in outer space?[/sp] [QUOTE=Rusty100;52990913]is she force sensitive because [sp]she's a skywalker, or can anyone just be force sensitive like the movie implies? i'm getting mixed signals here. hereditary, random? all of the above? next it'll be an std[/sp] [editline]20th December 2017[/editline] yeah she literally [sp]suffocated AND froze over! so she used the force to LITERALLY REVIVE HERSELF FROM DEATH and UNDO THE EFFECTS OF SPACE! i can't buy this for a second.[/sp] [editline]20th December 2017[/editline] [sp]if the force is strong enough to bring people back from the dead or straight up prevent death why can't anyone more powerful do anything like this?[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]Leia is blatantly force sensitive and that's been the case since Empire Strikes Back. Also, at no point did she die. I'm not sure if they want it to be that anyone can do it with training or if it's a gift random people have, but in the past it's been that some people are force sensitive and most aren't. But Skywalkers are pretty established as being an extremely force sensitive family. Anyone born to a Skywalker is going to be force sensitive, hence Kylo Ren.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Rusty100;52990913] yeah she literally [sp]suffocated AND froze over! so she used the force to LITERALLY REVIVE HERSELF FROM DEATH and UNDO THE EFFECTS OF SPACE! i can't buy this for a second.[/sp] [/QUOTE] [sp]Things more crazy then that have happened in canon. And nothing says she was dead. You can theoretically survive up to 3 minutes in a vacuum[/sp]

[sp]Still trying to figure out why the only surviving OT character (main cast, anyways) is the only character without someone to represent them in the next film[/sp]

Should have posted this in this thread instead really, so i'll put it here as well: [QUOTE=nightlord;52990933]I think this is missing the point of the complaints. The Last Jedi is enjoyable while you're watching it, but when you stop and think about it, it was bad. Not [I]just [/I]disappointing, but there are so many problems with it overall that i feel like to an extent it was worse than the prequels. In terms of the actual movie quality it was obviously far, far better than the prequels - acting was good, it all looked great, well filmed to a high standard etc - but i'd consider what it did to Star Wars as a whole worse than what the prequels did. The prequels were kinda bad because of poor acting, overuse of CGI and some very silly or strange moments, but i felt overall they added to the Star Wars universe in a fairly positive way (outside of say, Jar Jar) regardless of those individual moments. For example The Phantom Menace alone Introduced all sorts of Starships, Locations, Characters and other stuff - it set up the concept of the Republic properly, showed us the Jedi Order and several other Jedi, The Trade Federation, Naboo, Battledroids, Corusant etc. Regardless of how well some of those aspects (E.g. Gungans and Anakin) were done, it overall made an effort to do some worldbuilding and properly establish things in a way that fit in with the direction things were going in later movies. The Last Jedi however, doesn't bother with such things as Worldbuilding, fitting in with the Star Wars setting, answering questions the previous movie raised in a way that even slightly suggests they put any thought into it, or even having an overall narrative that feels likt it's worthwhile. It's different than the previous movie sure, but the things it does are not something that feels like it had any real need or place in what was [I]supposed [/I]to be going on. It feels like they're were choices made either just for the sake of it, or because they really had no idea what they were going to do with anything and didn't really care about treating those things properly. The prequels were a disappointment because they were kinda low quality, but the Last Jedi is bad for a very different reason, one that i think is much worse - It goes from one thing to another with little consideration about if what it's doing is a good idea in the long run, throwing "You thought we were going to do something with this aspect of the setting? [I]Wrong[/I]!" moments in constantly, or ruining serious moments with completely out of place humour. [sp] Snoke? His Elite Guard? Luke's Lightsaber? Luke himself? Reys Parents? The Resistance fleet and all their ships? Poe'x modified, unique X-wing? Pretty much the entire resistance itself? The whole motivation behind Luke abandoning the Jedi (but being perfectly fine with the Dark Side winning)? The Knights of Ren not appearing or even being Mentioned? All parts of the setting where they went "This new thing/something you remember from before? Lets waste all the potential to do something interesting with it for no real reason". [/sp] It's worse than the prequels because it [I]simply doesn't care[/I]. That's without even going into some of the absolutely silly or absurd things that occurred in the movie. It's like the prequels were something that [I]should [/I]have been good as a concept but was done badly, while the Last Jedi is a bad concept at the core that was masked by high quality production values.[/QUOTE] Basically, while it's a good movie in the sense it's enjoyable to watch and overall it isn't objectively bad, what it does for Star Wars as a whole is more of a negative than the quality-related issues of the prequels. It just wastes all the potential that it had while showing an utter disregard for expanding or improving on the setting overall. The general plot even feels more like a TV-show episode than what should have been a big, impactful, expansive middle element of a trilogy set in a huge universe filled with all sorts of interesting things and potential for any number of plot points and uses for what it had available.

Regarding the Leia scene everyone is talking about it had been done in the show Rebels before. [sp]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZTZQgBKGKg Ofcourse kanan froze over quite quickly...but man it just looked stupid from leia's perspective[/sp]

[QUOTE=RaptorBlackz;52991189]Regarding the Leia scene everyone is talking about it had been done in the show Rebels before. [sp]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZTZQgBKGKg Ofcourse kanan froze over quite quickly...but man it just looked stupid from leia's perspective[/sp][/QUOTE] I don't think the issue is so much the general idea of [sp] surviving in space and using the force to move yourself [/sp] but how it was done. To have [sp] Leia survive an explosion where she [I]should[/I] have died, then be floating unconscious and freezing out in space for a short while, only to suddenly wake up and decide she's suddenly going to use the force (for the first time) to magically fly back in a pose like Superman when she's character who has never actually had any manifestation of actual conscious force power usage before was just entirely absurd. It looked absolutely stupid and took away from what would have been an emotional, impactful, serious scene because of how out of place it is both in tone and in context with Leia herself. She did have some very slight force sensitivity hinted at previously with the connection to Luke and Han, but what she did still felt utterly random and silly because it was unprecedented for her and lessened the scene with it just looking so comical. It fits in the sense that Leia is a Skywalker and Jedi could do that, but it was still far-fetched and silly.[/sp]