Star Wars Megathread Episode IV: A New Thread: UNTAGGED SPOILERS? 1 WEEK BAN - Film, Television and Music

[QUOTE=overwatch pvt;53002931]Yea I really love that [sp]They broke the heroic wacky idea working trope and had Finn and friends just completely fail. [/sp][/QUOTE] The only part of the Casino plot that I really liked was the fact that [sp]the lockpicker was a brilliant subversion, like you said. Sometimes you really can't trust that criminals will have a heart of gold -- totally unexpected, really great.[/sp] I just wish it was worked into the rest of the movie a little better. Oh and I'm a little bitter that [sp]Lando wasn't at the Casino, but I guess I can't really blame the movie for that too much.[/sp]

I thought I'd never see the day where people would start defending the Canto Bight's "plot" and pulling wonderful and interesting interpretations of said "plot" straight out of their asses, but hey, at the very least the world never ceases to amuse me

[QUOTE=EliaMoroes;53004239]I thought I'd never see the day where people would start defending the Canto Bight's "plot" and pulling wonderful and interesting interpretations of said "plot" straight out of their asses, but hey, at the very least the world never ceases to amuse me[/QUOTE] I don't like Canto Bight either but holy shit let people enjoy what they want

[QUOTE=Jimesu_Evil;53004317]I don't like Canto Bight either but holy shit let people enjoy what they want[/QUOTE] Again I'd have an esier time respecting people liking things from The Last Jedi more if they actually took time to [I]properly[/I] argument their opinion instead of just declaring "But I personally liked it" or "You hate the sequel trilogy as a whole so your point of view doesn't count". Claiming that Canto Bight served a purpose in the overall plot because "Finn matured as a character and found other things worth protecting than Rey" is a complete ass pull as far as I'm concerne, and a desperate attempt at defending a long sequence which doesn't advance the characters and plot in any meaningful way and is extremely out of place in a Star Wars media. I mean, even the dreaded pod race business from The Phantom Menace was 40 minutes long and heavily relayed on the characters involved being idiots, but at the very least it introduced Anakin as a character and showed the audience is incredible Force potential

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;53003892]I said this before, but honestly [sp]Leia turning into space Superman didn't bother me. This is a space fantasy film, maybe she can use the force, that's fine. Same with the metal lightspeed kamikaze, or the fact that bombs can drop in space or whatever. This feels like nitpicking to me, there's magic and technology in this universe that I don't understand nor need to understand and that's fine.[/sp] [sp]What bothers me is the dumb characters. Why is Poe so stupid? Why is Holdo so stupid? Why did nothing happen for half the movie? That's what bugs me.[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]It doesn't bother me that much that Leia can do stuff like that, but the execution was pisspoor. I was thinking "oh this is a really nice send-off, she'll forever float through space like an icy queen", and then nope, now she's back and has nothing to do the rest of the movie. It also looked ridiculous, but that wasn't the biggest issue.[/sp]

[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;53002957]Saw it a third time for the sake of recording a podcast with some friends. This time I decided to play script doctor, focusing on all the parts I didn't like and coming up with ways to fix them: [sp]-Instead of Rose, Holdo loses a loved one in the bombing run. This is why she's so needlessly hostile to Poe. In the end, she learns to move past her anger and sacrifice herself for the greater good.[/sp][/quote] I disagree with this, I thought everyone already[sp] had a perfectly valid reason to be made at Po; he got all of their bombers destroyed for what was essentially a pointless "fuck you" towards The First Order that achieved at best a very fleeting advantage. I'd be pissed too if I were his superior.[/sp] [QUOTE=BanthaFodder;53002957][sp]We also get a scene where Holdo explains to one of the bridge officers that she fears there may be a spy on board; she doesn't know how the First Order tracked them through lightspeed and that's the reason she doesn't tell anyone about her plan to hide out on Planet Salt.[/sp][/quote] This however I agree was [I]desperately[/I] needed. The fact that she [sp]refused to tell anyone her plan [I]for no reason[/I] was an incredibly forced piece of drama. A scene where they set up the hyperspeed suicide attack somehow would have been nice in addition, considering it came basically out of nowhere and opens a huge can of worms for why we've never heard of that sort of maneuver before considering it was extremely effective.[/sp] Where can I find your podcast? I'd like to listen to it.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;53003892]I said this before, but honestly [sp]Leia turning into space Superman didn't bother me. This is a space fantasy film, maybe she can use the force, that's fine. Same with the metal lightspeed kamikaze, or the fact that bombs can drop in space or whatever. This feels like nitpicking to me, there's magic and technology in this universe that I don't understand nor need to understand and that's fine.[/sp][/QUOTE] Yeah but what's the point if there's no internal consistency? I don't care much about the [sp]bomb dropping[/sp] because that's the first time it's come up; but we've [I]never[/I] seen [sp]force manipulation on that level from Leia.[/sp] It's not the [I]worst[/I] thing but was a blatant deus ex machina. Still the [sp]Leia[/sp] thing is small potatoes compared to that [sp]lightspeed suicide attack decimating what appeared to be the ENTIRE First Order fleet pursuing them.[/sp] That was both unprecedented and would have entirely changed the nature of how battles have been fought in the franchise. It destroys my suspension of disbelief that it would be simultaneously that effective and something that has never once come up. I don't think it's defensible at all if you're giving any thought to internal consistency (which fantasy or not is still something that I want in my films). [quote][sp]What bothers me is the dumb characters. Why is Poe so stupid? Why is Holdo so stupid? Why did nothing happen for half the movie? That's what bugs me.[/sp][/QUOTE] But man I couldn't agree with you more on this.

[QUOTE=EliaMoroes;53004356]Again I'd have an esier time respecting people liking things from The Last Jedi more if they actually took time to [I]properly[/I] argument their opinion instead of just declaring "But I personally liked it" or "You hate the sequel trilogy as a whole so your point of view doesn't count". Claiming that Canto Bight served a purpose in the overall plot because "Finn matured as a character and found other things worth protecting than Rey" is a complete ass pull, as far as I'm concerned, and a desperate trying to defend a long sequence which doesn't advance the characters and plot in any meaningful way and is extremely out of place in a Star Wars media. I mean, even the dreaded pod race business from The Phantom Menace was 40 minutes long and heavily relayed on the characters involved being idiots, but at the very least it introduced Anakin as a character and showed the audience is incredible Force potential[/QUOTE] The point of Canto Bight was to add depth to Rose, introduce Benicio del Toro's character, and possibly to mix up the locale since there's so few throughout the film. Whether or not it was an interesting arc is subjective to one's opinion. To you, it wasn't that interesting, but if to someone else it was, that doesn't entitle you to be a snob about it. Same goes for most of the film for that matter. That's fine if you didn't like it, but acting like it is inconceivable that anyone else can find entertainment value in it just makes you look like an asshole (this is not aimed specifically at you).

I just saw this a few hours ago with my sister and she immediately laughed out loud the first time General Hux started speaking on the bridge. I think a main failing of this films is the overemphasis on humor, so much of it in the villains and the 'serious' scenes. It just seems weird to go jumping between BB-8 slapstick and then [sp]noble sacrificial deaths[/sp] in the span of four minutes. In a movie that is two an a half hours long.

I am thinking of how perhabs they could fix some of TLJ's plot issues in next episode and i have this idea of [sp] Hux being the real snoke. He uses some remote "force controled" decoy/old creepy flesh to project power, since his own lineage is quite unimpressive and would not allow to properly lead first Order, but with "supreme leader's" physical appearance he allows rumours and fear to properly shrowd himself for intimidation. He also develops Hux persona to be as far away from his true confidence as possible, while maintaining control over first order and masking failures. This would atleast explain both Hux's rabit emotional screaming and Snoke's underwhelming demise for a proper new Kylo/Hux dynamic and a nice plot twist. [/sp]

[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;53004426]Yeah but what's the point if there's no internal consistency? I don't care much about the [sp]bomb dropping[/sp] because that's the first time it's come up; but we've [I]never[/I] seen [sp]force manipulation on that level from Leia.[/sp] It's not the [I]worst[/I] thing but was a blatant deus ex machina. Still the [sp]Leia[/sp] thing is small potatoes compared to that [sp]lightspeed suicide attack decimating what appeared to be the ENTIRE First Order fleet pursuing them.[/sp] That was both unprecedented and would have entirely changed the nature of how battles have been fought in the franchise. It destroys my suspension of disbelief that it would be simultaneously that effective and something that has never once come up. I don't think it's defensible at all if you're giving any thought to internal consistency (which fantasy or not is still something that I want in my films). But man I couldn't agree with you more on this.[/QUOTE] [Sp] That comes at such an enormous cost to the resistance that it's pretty reasonable we haven't seen it before. Add in an obvious assumption that it was a risky move and she got lucky that it even worked and you've got a pretty small suspension of disbelief. There's enough issues with the film that you don't need to nitpick the [I]Star wars tech[/I], it's hardly hard sci fi.[/sp]

I thought this movie was pretty good. Not fantastic, but pretty dang good. The casino subplot should have been much shorter and it introduced some plot holes and cringe worthy moments from Rose especially, but for the most part I'd say this movie earned an 8/10

[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;53004426]Yeah but what's the point if there's no internal consistency? I don't care much about the [sp]bomb dropping[/sp] because that's the first time it's come up; but we've [I]never[/I] seen [sp]force manipulation on that level from Leia.[/sp] It's not the [I]worst[/I] thing but was a blatant deus ex machina. Still the [sp]Leia[/sp] thing is small potatoes compared to that [sp]lightspeed suicide attack decimating what appeared to be the ENTIRE First Order fleet pursuing them.[/sp] That was both unprecedented and would have entirely changed the nature of how battles have been fought in the franchise. It destroys my suspension of disbelief that it would be simultaneously that effective and something that has never once come up. I don't think it's defensible at all if you're giving any thought to internal consistency (which fantasy or not is still something that I want in my films). But man I couldn't agree with you more on this.[/QUOTE] [sp] How many 3.5km long flagships do you think the resistance has going spare that they can just throw them at enemies willy nilly?[/sp]

[QUOTE=squids_eye;53004639][sp] How many 3.5km long flagships do you think the resistance has going spare that they can just throw them at enemies willy nilly?[/sp][/QUOTE] [Sp]It took out their entire fleet. The whole thing. Seems like it would have been a decent trade-off at the battle of endor or something to sacrifice one capital ship to do that much damage. They'll lose way more in a straight engagement. And let's not forget Plan A for them was "Just keep going forward and get shot a lot and explode without even attempting our most powerful maneuver." The ship was going down anyway and it never occured to them? Hell the captain on the Frigate earlier who evacuated his crew didn't attempt anything like that even though the Frigate could have done serious damage before it went down and possibly saved the their flagship.[/sp] This is not me nitpicking the tech, this is a blatant deus ex machina in a film full of them, the consequences of which in a [I]better[/I] movie would have been explored. Turns out in a movie about Wars In Space I want there to be consistent rules for how those Wars are fouord; it's not a tall order. It's irritating how people are willing to throw internal rules entirely out the window for this film in particular. [QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53004590][Sp] There's enough issues with the film that you don't need to nitpick the [I]Star wars tech[/I], it's hardly hard sci fi.[/sp][/QUOTE] You're strawmanning me; I never claimed to want hard scifi, only internal logic.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;53004562]I am thinking of how perhabs they could fix some of TLJ's plot issues in next episode and i have this idea of [sp] Hux being the real snoke. He uses some remote "force controled" decoy/old creepy flesh to project power, since his own lineage is quite unimpressive and would not allow to properly lead first Order, but with "supreme leader's" physical appearance he allows rumours and fear to properly shrowd himself for intimidation. He also develops Hux persona to be as far away from his true confidence as possible, while maintaining control over first order and masking failures. This would atleast explain both Hux's rabit emotional screaming and Snoke's underwhelming demise for a proper new Kylo/Hux dynamic and a nice plot twist. [/sp][/QUOTE] I'm not sure that would make sense for his character though, he's seemed way more content to plow through problems headfirst with his fancy new guns than really scheme.

[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;53004663][Sp]It took out their entire fleet. The whole thing. Seems like it would have been a decent trade-off at the battle of endor or something to sacrifice one capital ship to do that much damage. They'll lose way more in a straight engagement. And let's not forget Plan A for them was "Just keep going forward and get shot a lot and explode without even attempting our most powerful maneuver." The ship was going down anyway and it never occured to them? Hell the captain on the Frigate earlier who evacuated his crew didn't attempt anything like that even though the Frigate could have done serious damage before it went down and possibly saved the their flagship.[/sp] This is not me nitpicking the tech, this is a blatant deus ex machina in a film full of them, the consequences of which in a [I]better[/I] movie would have been explored. Turns out in a movie about Wars In Space I want there to be consistent rules for how those Wars are fouord; it's not a tall order. It's irritating how people are willing to throw internal rules entirely out the window for this film in particular. You're strawmanning me; I never claimed to want hard scifi, only internal logic.[/QUOTE] Read the post, Luke. [QUOTE] [sp] That comes at such an enormous cost to the resistance that it's pretty reasonable we haven't seen it before. Add in an obvious assumption that it was a risky move and she got lucky that it even worked and you've got a pretty small suspension of disbelief.[/sp] [/QUOTE] I'm not saying you were asking for hard sci fi, I'm saying that not giving the benefit of the doubt and ignoring reasonable ways to justify it because they're not explicit is silly for something that's not hard sci fi.

[QUOTE=-Ben_Wolfe-;53004464][sp]The point of Canto Bight was to add depth to Rose, introduce Benicio del Toro's character, and possibly to mix up the locale since there's so few throughout the film.[/sp] Whether or not it was an interesting arc is subjective to one's opinion. To you, it wasn't that interesting, but if to someone else it was, that doesn't entitle you to be a snob about it. Same goes for most of the film for that matter. That's fine if you didn't like it, but acting like it is inconceivable that anyone else can find entertainment value in it just makes you look like an asshole (this is not aimed specifically at you).[/QUOTE] [sp]What depth did it add to Rose's character, though? She has like one line about how she grew up as a slave or whatever, and that's about it. She doesn't talk much more about her relationship with her sister or whatever, and in general she seems fairly oblivious to the fact that she's dead after she's introduced to Finn. The entire sequence has some of the cringiest writing I've seen in a Star Wars movie (including the prequels), and some general dumbness. We're supposed to accept that them not finding a proper parking spot is basically the reason why most of the rebellion is then wiped out while on the transport ships. You may find that humorous or whatever, but to me it just takes me out of the movie. BB-8 is suddenly able to take down four guards on his own, because a weird, drunk alien confused it for a slot machine a few hours earlier. Again, this may be funny to you, but to me it's dumb. Our sorta main characters' only reaction to their ship getting blown up (making the odds of them saving the [I]entirety of the rebellion[/I] basically zero) only nets a "oh come on" from Finn, and when they release the cute creatures to the wild, apparently it was all worth it because they stuck it to the man. Also, please do remember that everyone in that casino was a bad person selling weapons to the first order. Let's make that very, very, very clear, so our audience don't miss anything. [/sp] Enjoy all you want, but if you can't be snobby about that aspect, you really have to dig pretty deep to find films or sequences you [I]can[/I] be snobby about.

[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;53004663][Sp]Hell the captain on the Frigate earlier who evacuated his crew didn't attempt anything like that even though the Frigate could have done serious damage before it went down and possibly saved the their flagship.[/sp][/QUOTE] See this is what bugged me as I left the theater. [sp]They started with 3 ships. Instead of letting all of them uselessly run out of fuel and get destroyed, they could have rammed the last order and got away[/sp]

[QUOTE=-Ben_Wolfe-;53004464]The point of Canto Bight was to add depth to Rose, introduce Benicio del Toro's character, and possibly to mix up the locale since there's so few throughout the film.[/QUOTE] I must assume that this depth about Rose you are talking about involves [I]really[/I] liking animals

Some poster already said it before, but in the context of when it happened I think it's just that [sp]it had a very low chance of actually working since the timing had to be very precise and enemy distracted[/sp] In that sense, it would add a nice layer to that whole arc [sp]first the pink-haired lady reprimands the guy for stupid reckless heroic desperate stunts, then she learns that sometimes doing a stupid reckless heroic desperate stunt youself is the only option to proceed[/sp]

[sp]My favorite explanation on the hyperspace kamikaze, from reddit[/sp] [sp]Active Hyperspace tracking. I think this is the best answer, explains why nobody used hyperspace tracking much if at all, and could allow Holdo to be making a conscious decision where she knew the outcome would be destruction of Snoke's ship. Perhaps with Active Hyperspace tracking spacetime is altered such that the ship and it's surrounding environment are present in hyperspace as well as normal space and that's why it is able to track a ship through hyperspace. Either nobody has ever done this before, or it's been done before but smarter people saw how intrinsically dangerous this was. Yes you can deploy this tech but it's so easily defeated by any hyperspace capable ship that it's basically useless. Maybe the First Order thought they were geniuses coming up with this, not realizing the implications or why no one had ever done it before. I like this in that it portrays the First Order as pretenders to power. Anyway Holdo has a last minute realization of how it could work. I think Finn, Rose, and Poe are the only ones who know about the nature of the Active Tracking system. All Leia and the rest of the leadership know is that they are being tracked somehow. Holdo doesn't find out about the scheme until just before they are ready to deploy the transports when Poe tells her, the mutiny happens, the mutiny is foiled, the transports launch, and then are being shot down. Not a lot of time for Holdo to process the information about the Active Tracking or it's implications. Then in a sudden burst of inspiration she realizes the nature of the Active Tracking system and makes her suicide run.[/sp]

I saw the movie a second time and i really liked it. Its disappointing to hear so many people upset about it because i actually think that most of the complaints are with the fact that their expectations were something else and they were unwilling to accept what was actually happening. Yeah, it didn't go how i thought it would, but i think people know the existing star wars stuff so intimately that they are struggling to accept something different. There are a couple hokey things but really star wars has always been kind of wack. You just aren't phased by any of the existing stuff as much anymore. I also think its funny how many complaints revolve around what plots happen and yeah, it can be frustrating to watch but some of the plans people come up with are legit bad plans in universe as well. To anyone who really didn't like it, yet is passionate about star wars. I just really hope you can give it another chance and let the movie bring you along its path. I truly think there is something good here that is actually an excellent addition to star wars. Its not perfect but it is special.

My biggest problem was the whole casino plotline, it added nothing and the setting felt like something from the prequels. If they cut it out entirely I think it would be a better fit.

[QUOTE=-Ben_Wolfe-;53004464] introduce Benicio del Toro's character[/QUOTE] The only point of his character I can see was [sp]to let the First Order know that the Resistance were using small pods to escape their cruiser, which in itself was a stupid plot hole.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Clovis;53003889]Rey is the only character i liked less in this film than the previous one. She honestly felt like part of the background in this movie[/QUOTE] I kinda feel like they're pulling a reverse OT, like back then Vader was a background character who'd occasionally appear to enter conflict and forward the plot with Luke as the focus, whereas here Kylo Ren is the focus and his "good" counterpart is the background character who'd occasionally appear to enter conflict and forward the plot. [editline]26th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53005075]My biggest problem was the whole casino plotline, it added nothing and the setting felt like something from the prequels. If they cut it out entirely I think it would be a better fit.[/QUOTE] But without the casino plotline [sp]literally none of the setup for the finale would have existed, and a large portion of the setup for the next film would also have evaporated.[/sp] It was bad in some parts but ultimately it lead to the events moving forward in a fairly meaningful way, ie [sp]the resistance getting their shit kicked in and effectively losing all of the momentum they had left[/sp] which is a pretty massive development.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;53005308]The only point of his character I can see was [sp]to let the First Order know that the Resistance were using small pods to escape their cruiser, which in itself was a stupid plot hole.[/sp][/QUOTE] [Sp] "sir i'm detecting lots of transport sized ships leaving the big ship." "Perkins, did I tell you to track anything other than that single heavy cruiser? Get back to work!" [/sp] [editline]25th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=BelatedGamer;53004176] Oh and I'm a little bitter that [sp]Lando wasn't at the Casino, but I guess I can't really blame the movie for that too much.[/sp][/QUOTE] Ya [sp] that seemed like they couldn't get billy D williams for the part, even for a cameo[/sp]

I just watched the movie a second time and enjoyed it a lot more than the first time. I was able to focus more on the subtle meaning of things as opposed to guessing what was going to happen next, which made a lot of things make so much more sense. I can confidently call it a good movie now.

I feel like the film relies perhaps too heavily on long-winded setups and payoffs considering how many people seem to just drop those altogether when watching the film and instead focus on the most immediate consequences leading to some scenes appearing pointless or having no payoff when in reality the point/payoff only materializes long after the scene went through. Like how people are calling Poe an idiot in this film or are complaining about Kylo Ren losing a fight in TFA, despite Poe [sp]being mad at the situation escaping his grasp and losing his mutual trust with the resistance's upper command and thus not being able to think straight and fucking up as a result[/sp] or Kylo Ren losing because he's wounded and too mad to focus. Also Holdo wasn't being an idiot at any point in the film. [sp]Her plan was sound as fuck but she did not account for mutiny/betrayal, which is the sole reason why her plan messed up as hard as she did. Her biggest mistake was to not tell Poe Dameron and with the kind of irreverent, insubordinate shit Poe pulled before it makes sense she wouldn't tell him shit.[/sp]

[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;53004176]Oh and I'm a little bitter that [sp]Lando wasn't at the Casino, but I guess I can't really blame the movie for that too much.[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]Rian's said that he actually considered having Lando in TLJ but he felt just having him as a cameo in Canto Bight wouldn't have done him justice and there wasn't enough room for him anywhere else. Maybe in IX. A man can dream.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53005075]My biggest problem was the whole casino plotline, it added nothing and the setting felt like something from the prequels. If they cut it out entirely I think it would be a better fit.[/QUOTE] [sp]The casino plotline introduces the character of DJ. Part of me wants that forty-five minutes of the movie justified by having this stuttering, friendly-looking character be the big baddie in the end. It’s one of the places they can go now that he’s established as having sold ships to both the rebellion and the first order and there’s only so many places he can go now that he’s sold Finn and Rose off, besides never reappear again. At this point in the trilogy I’m mostly wondering who (in universe) is financing this morbid, seemingly pointless reenactment of the rebel/empire war. The casino arc is the closest we get to a part of the answer, where we get to know where all of the first order buys all their shit, though now we don’t know how they pay for it. All in all this movie had me questionning the rebel alliance/first order’s relevance in the galaxy a lot. The last scene of the stable boy getting enlisted with the rebel alliance I found rather disturbing, what with both factions running short on manpower, which would effectively mean the end of the war in the stars, if only they would stop recruiting children to die for them. This is probably why I’m looking for a bigger villain here, regardless of Snoke’s death; the first order is looking more and more like it will die before we get to know where it came from. An unexpected archvillain seems to be more of where they’re heading with the gray morality theme in this trilogy and what they could be hinting at with the discourse on greed throughout most of the casino arc. As for the film I liked it, it was stupid fun and gave me loose ends to play with, whereas I hated TFA.[/sp]