TF2 Random Critical Hits: A Fair and Balanced Discussion
669 replies, posted
So is this the reason you have not responded to other questions I have asked you?
(I am talking about these two:)
he doesnt and he doesnt accept that too
If someone tells you that you are wrong, does that necessarily mean that you are wrong?
If multiple people tell you are wrong and explain the reasons in painful detail, does that mean you are wrong? The reason doesn't just become null when you ask a meaningless question about it.
You seem to dislike it when I supposedly evade questions.
Do you care about all the other people evading questions, or is it only targeted at me?
Stop asking questions that have already been answered and instead answer the questions levied at you that you keep deflecting from by getting into stupid semantics shitflinging or baby's first philosophy class.
Not necessarily. The reason doesn't become true merely because it is stated, or it is given in great detail.
I would also like to know what your answer is to the question you just asked me.
I would like you to go and answer my question.
Yes and yes. And if someone, you are making it longwinded by making this 12 pages long now by asking question after question, damn it.
Nonono, you see, people like ASIC think any points that disagree with his are irrelevant just because they disagree.
They could be argued by subject matter experts (they are certainly being argued by people who outrank him in competitive experience or game knowledge, even people like dane, and jill who've expressed their opposition) and he would still just question them in to eternity.
He is a result of living in a world where opinions are held to the same value as facts. It's an intellectual wasteland.
its funny because you're evading the questions made at you by making this question.
Boy, if they implement crowfunding permabans i am ready to rain diamonds on it.
To be honest, I think this thread should be called "lite-shitposting and crits" or Critical Discussions: You can win when you get a random quote crit!. No matter what you do, ASIC will not reply to the question given to him, and will try to force the discussion to suit his worldview. I have been tempted by demons to just quote ASIC and ask him question about his questions until something explodes (like that security robot in the Deus Ex mod).
Back on topic: Boy, oh boy, I just hope the TF2 Team tries disabling random crits on an update just to test the waters. See how players react and how the data they hold behaves. Of course some places and websites will be ablaze by such act, but, I'm sure most player past the 1000 hours will experience the joy of a fair match, instead of relying on a dice roll to kill your opponent.
@ASIC
By the way Ive been wondering, you've said that random crits are fine in a fair game because each team has equal chance of doing random crit, and now you are saying that the teams with unequal skill level is fine because the team with lower skill level can rely on things like beginners luck.
Wouldnt random crits still be unfair if the teams had unequal skill level? It's obviously not a fair matchup so random crits would obviously be unfair.
Even if I ignore the unfair matchup less skilled players wont be using the optimal strategy the skilled players are using so the team with less skill are less likely to get random crits.
Also beginner's luck isnt a good excuse because it wouldnt apply to TF2 as much as tennis or chess like you brought up, because TF2 is 12v12 and not 2v2 or 1v1, so TF2 is much less likely to get affected by them.
You have answered yes to these 2 questions:
"If someone tells you that you are wrong, does that necessarily mean that you are wrong?"
"If multiple people tell you are wrong and explain the reasons in painful detail, does that mean you are wrong?"
( @Hell-met also answered yes to the first one, so part of this is directed at him)
What are the consequences of this?
Let's start with the first one, "If someone tells you that you are wrong, that means you are wrong". Here are 4 conclusions that follow from it.
1:
Your belief that you are posting on facepunch is wrong. Your belief is wrong because I told you it is wrong.
2:
Your are a criminal. You are a criminal because I told you so.
3:
Your belief that you exist is wrong. It is wrong because I told you it was wrong.
4:
Your belief that "If someone tells you that you are wrong, that means you are wrong" is wrong. Your belief is wrong because I told you it is wrong.
Now here is the second thing. ""If multiple people tell you are wrong and explain the reasons in painful detail,that means you are wrong."
So consider this: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php
Okay what the actual fuck does this have to do with random crits? I'm here to discuss why random crits exist, not... this. I just don't want to even start.
WHY are random crits in the game? What are the things that make them good?
I have not evaded any questions.
If you are talking about this post:
TF2 Random Critical Hits
Then I responded to it here: TF2 Random Critical Hits
That is the 3rd post above you.
Attempting to wax philosophical about criminals and existence is a poor way of avoiding answering the one about random crits.
And that's when it's attempted by actually intelligent people. Trying to hide behind the freakin' flat earth society is the mark of a genuine idiot.
asic's so dense that scientists could visit his house to learn about the black hole that produced from his sheer density
ok guys we're getting kind of off topic here, I know bashing ASIC's sheer lack of awareness into the random crit problem is fun and all but lets stay on topic
random VAC bans when?
Do it.
You are exaggerating that last part a little bit.
Exaggerating the joy or the websites being ablaze? Because yes, the Steam Discussions will be on fire.
Your rebuttal to my post only consists of fallacies.*
You called my argument bad, and you called me stupid. Even if those 2 things were true (and those 2 things are not true), neither of them show that any point I brought up is invalid.
If an argument is so blatantly wrong, then why can't you disprove it?
*If it matters, they are "Appeal to mockery" and "ad hominem".
calling out fallacies is not an argument by itself and you know this
That is all his post really had in it.
Anyways I didn't just call it a fallacy, I explained why what he said didn't apply.
To elaborate on this.
Someone being stupid doesn't necessarily invalidate their argument.
If a mentally disabled person, were to tell you that "1 + 1 = 2" that does not mean that "1 + 1 is NOT equal to 2".
A post being bad or stupid doesn't necessarily invalidate the presented ideas either.
A premise can still be valid if the conclusions are invalid, and vice versa. Basically if one part of an argument has flaws, it doesn't necessarily mean that all of it is flawed.
Suppose someone says that " 1 + 1 =2, therefore we live in the sun". Now we do not live in the sun, but that does not mean that 1+1 != 2.
Another example is if someone says "The lizard illuminati controls the governments, therefore most cars run on oil". The lizard illuminati does not exist, but that doesn't mean that cars do not run on oil.
What does that have to do with random crits? I do not know. You should really ask other people that question.
The thing is that I didn't bring that topic up, what happened is that various people accuse me of things. The people doing that don't want to stop making accusations. So it goes on and on. I just respond to them.
My post up there was related to that topic that they bring up.
Random crits are in the game because the developers wanted them to be.
To answer the second question in a more useful way, I need to know what you are thinking of when you say good. The thing is that good can refer to many things, it could mean fun, it could mean well designed, it could mean enjoyable, and so on. One thing to note is that stuff like fun and well designed are subjective.
The thing is that I would have the same issue answering "Why is this good" in relation to other stuff as well. Why is TF2 good, why is soldier good, Why is the cowmangler good, etc.
You could say that people find them fun, but that's already been said. Someone is probably going to ask why people find them fun.
Okay well, I'm just going to word it in a different way, why do you want to keep them in the game?
I don't know about how the steam discussions would react.
I was talking about the joy bit. He may have been exaggerating to joke about it.
I'd guess that if someone plays tf2 for 1000 hours and they don't like random crits, it's not really that big an issue for them. Either it doesn't bother them much, or they are somehow playing without them.
If it's significantly bothering them and they are playing with them, I would wonder why they would play for that long. It is not impossible for that to happen, but it is strange.
There is the question of if they would end up finding something else to complain about if they were removed.
I think that matches aren't going to be any more or less fair, and that saying it's a relying on a dice roll is somewhat of an exaggeration.
a quick recap says that crits are part of TF2 original desing and as such they add little moments of joy and/or frustration that are part of tf2's inherent desing as a casual game, but community has grow an opinion agaisnt it over the years and have no place when the game is played with a competitive focus for the same reasons other games do: while competitive play can exist in a game that factors chance (such as poker) said chance often works towards gameplay, not agaisnt it.
If you can, try to find a community server and enjoy the experience of nocrits. The game is essentially the same. Some classes suffer more than others (Sniper, Engineer and Medic get a ton of melee crits) but they can still work as intended without any loss.
i usually use weapons that has the no random crits tags so im so used with not having crits
I thought I had explained this in detail earlier in the thread, but I can't find the post.
Basically, I like them.
If you are wondering, this is what the "always vs most of the time" changes. I'm not sure how relevant it is. If something always happens it has a 100% chance.If something is more likely to happen then it simply has a higher chance than the alternative.
In the case where there are 2 exclusive possibilities:
If something always happens it has a 100% chance and the other thing has a 0% chance.
If something happens most of the time will have a chance that is bigger than 50% and the other thing will have a chance smaller than 50%.
If something always happens then it is more likely to happen. However the opposite is not true. If something is more likely to happen, that doesn't necessarily mean that it always happen.
That skill related stuff is naturally going to be affected by random crits, but that is not the same thrown out.
Like in the Crocket from opposite side of the map example, if the medic had paid attention he could have noticed the crocket and moved out of they way. It's rather noticeable projectile due to the visual effect, and it was from long range.
As a side note, yes I do know that skill isn't just a number. I had mentioned this earlier, but it was in the middle of a long post:
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