TF2 Random Critical Hits: A Fair and Balanced Discussion
669 replies, posted
There is no healthy discussion. You could say plain as day why random crits are unhealthy for competitive gameplay, and ASIC would still respond with "Alright, but what about everything else I said? But why are they unealthy tho?"
It's blatantly obvious there are no arguments for random crits, and there's no reason for discussion to bother continuing. Every single argument for random crits has been based at least somewhat, if not entirely, on nostalgia and anecdotal evidence, vs. the various proven sources and statistics used by the anti-random crit party.
Going by that logic ASIC is a random crit druggy that needs rehab .
there are, and have been presented, but aparenty your hate boner for ASIC is bigger than the discusion at hand.
Then please, enlighten me with an actual valid point that wasn't dismantled yet, instead of just going "oh u hate asic too much to see his arguments". I've seen only three people that aren't ASIC respond in favor of random crits, and the most that they have said amounts to "i personally have had fond experiences with crits so i'm okay with them". Am I wrong? Has anybody given a valid argument? Or is your boner for needless argument for arguments' sake driving you?
There are not, and here is why.
Every argument that supposes randomness being a beneficial factor to the enjoyment of skill based player interactions, also supposes that the outcome of said interactions is meant to be the result of luck+skill and/or luck management a la poker or other chance based games of skill.
That is not or ever has been the case with tf2.
Valve themselves have said what they want the result of player interactions to be, and that is not it. This casket has been closed for a while, end of story. I will gladly reverse this if valve says otherwise, but considering they just added a crit poll to a competitive update, i rather doubt the game us heading in that direction.
Secondly, many of the crit arguments devolve down subjective enjoyment; e.g. "i like silly moments and uncontrolled chaos", or " undeserved damage and deaths are tf2 for me".
And that's fine. You can enjoy whatever you want, just don't try to enforce an opinion antithetical to the point of tf2's core gameplay on everyone else via suggesting we retain unfair, obsolete mechanics from a decade ago.
That brings us to the more "legitimate" pro crit arguments, namely that they lend tangible variety to an otherwise stale teamfight metagame, as was the case at launch.
If this were still launch, without hundreds of weapon combos, maps, skill levels and a decade of strategy and playstyle development- then yes, that might still hold water as it is a real argument.
But it isn't.
We dont need them anymore.
That has been a survey of every rational pro-crit argument in the history of tf2. There are plenty of irrational ones, like apathy or nostalgia, but there's no point in picking apart each person's personal biases.
Asked, answered, and tabled. See? Not hard.
Joy at expense of other people seems to be part of the intended game design of TF2.
For instance one may consider taunts, especially ones like the Schadenfreude.
taunts are just a salt to the wound
while random crits feels like a kick to the dick while getting your mom fucked, basically
That solution is bad. There was already a "Kritboostening" spell that merasmus casts.
You realize that taunts were a late-development addition to the game since they realized that they had both the development time (at least for the animators) and the console memory to add taunts as a means of getting more mileage out of the killcam and the domination/revenge mechanics. They literally talk about this during the developer commentary. Schadenfreude also didn't exist for another four years.
Of course you don't realize it, that's why you brought it up.
There don't need to be random crits to take pleasure in seeing 3 people getting railed by the Well train. There don't need to be random crits to collectively camp a teleporter exit. There don't need to be random crits for someone to die burning as the healthpack spawns at their feet for you taunt into the killcam anyway. The game exists fine without random crits -- it has existed fine since Februrary 2008 -- the real question is why is the inverse fine? How does the TF2 experience magically dissipate if you can't get instantkills?
You've had months to articulate this point and time and time again you dodge the question and demand people explain for things that were already explained, it's gotten so bad that there's a dedicated threat to quarantine you. Just answer the initial question.
I know what the burden of proof is. However, Kaiga, the question is really do you know what the burden of proof is?
You have repeatedly made accusations against me, but when I ask you to prove any of them you refuse to do so.
So at this point it seems like there are 2 possibilities for why this happens.
You do not understand what the burden of proof is and are too ignorant to debate properly. In this case you should stop arguing until you learn what the burden of proof is.
You know what the burden of proof is, but you refuse to prove your accusations because you are arguing in bad faith.
In this case you should retract your accusations, provide evidence for your accusations, or leave the thread.
In either of these 2 cases, if you continue on like you have before, you clearly have no business discussing any sort of topic here.
Now, let's look at what I want you to prove:
For instance in this very post, you accuse me of making an argument along the lines of the classically bad "prove god is not real". In this case you claim that:
I'd like you to prove that I did this.
There is also the stuff elsewhere.
I'd like you to prove this:
I would like you to prove the accusations you made against me here:
(This is only part of the full post, you can click the link to see the rest)
I'd also like you to prove the accusations you made in these posts as well:
TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6
TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6
TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6
TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V6
Really? You have got to be the stupidest fuck i have ever seen on this forum.
After all that explanation directly above your post in my reply to metaru you STILL answered with "proof or GTFO" quoting observations from 3 pages ago instead of the actual points...
OF WHICH YOU STILL HAVE PROVIDED NONE OF YOUR OWN!
Jesus flipping christ it's like you cannot READ.
ALL OF THE ANTI-PRO CRIT POINTS ARE CRYSTALLIZED INTO THAT POST YOU IDIOT SANDWICH
Close this god damn thread. We're being trolled here.
Make random crit chance rapidly ramp down with damage dealt instead of gently ramping up.
replace all mini crits with full crits.
There are no problems with this change.
At this point I'd just be fine with the banning of ASIC and locking the thread.
this thread was a mistake from the get-go
seven pages and nothing was achieved
We achieved the knowledge that ASIC wasn't just really committed to a troll character and is actually that much like talking to a brick wall in conversations and arguments, and that there are people that agreed with his stance but only based on personal experience and, in the end, they'd be fine with them being removed just as well.
Didn't we already come to that conclusion before this thread?
Some people had doubts, I imagine, but it's better to be all in the clear for situations like this.
I'm pretty sure at this point ASIC even knows random crits are shit, but since he's been branded as the "pro random crit" guy, he just keeps up the act to keep us posting
The point of my post was that you keep making accusations against me, basically slander, and you have refused to prove them when asked.
You said that "He ignored the very evidence he demanded, then demanded it again as an argument." This is not true.
Your reply to metaru was this: TF2 Random Critical Hits
So, good job, you tried prove something.
However it only tried to prove one of the things I have asked of you, this one line:
This post I just quoted even had other accusations from you that you still have not proven.
What you are doing is psychological projection. You accuse me of ignoring the evidence I demand, but you ignore all of the other accusations I asked you to prove.
You focus on one line and exclude everything else.
My god just shut up already will you?
the mods should prevent asics from replying in 10 minutes if he typed crits on his sentences
You kept making accusations that you refuse to prove. I think I would have stopped talking about it if you had stopped doing it.
I was playing with Exor tonight and he had an interesting suggestion: Why not add random ubers to the game? I thought why not take it one step further and add a random dead ringer effect on death? Can anyone that defends random crits also defend adding those to the game? After all they would give the same kind of random advantage to players as random crit.
You are accusing me of the very thing you are doing; your continued replying after your bluff has been called is the reason why this thread exists, to (LITERALLY, SEE THE BIOHAZARD SYMBOL) quarantine the threat you posed to MUS
Wait a minute. You're not going to read any of this anyway.
Every time I see the argument of "remove random crits from non-melees but keep them on melees" I gotta ask why people think that's a good idea. People just hate instantly dying period, and how can you blame them?
I suggest this every so often with varying degrees of success:
Remove random crits from official servers and in servers where they're disabled, apply a "combo system" to melee weapons in the same way the Gunslinger's punches work. Maybe give some leeway in the timing, as the Gunslinger requires you to hold mouse1 down for 3 swings that actually hit for the third one to be a crit, when it would be much more "ideal" given a grace-period between swings that the counter for successful hits doesn't reset. Probably 1-2 seconds, depending on how fast the weapon swings.
A combo system could be a great way to rebalance melees. Weapons that deal higher damage could require more successful hits to crit, with the baseline being 3. I'm sure if a Heavy doesn't die to 3 Scotsman's Skullcutter hits in a row and doesn't turn around to kill the Demo doing it, the Demo deserves the 4th hit to be a 235 damage crit.
A combo system would reward people that can strafe around a target attempting to shoot them down and punish those that either isn't skilled enough to deal with it or aren't paying attention - both things that are at the fault of the victim.
You are basically saying "Since you defend this thing, you must also defend this thing". Is this statement always correct?
There are reasons that one may make for keeping something in the game. Does that mean they are automatically suitable as reasons for adding something to the game?
There are already 9 classes in the game and people would argue against removing the engineer, so why don't they argue for adding another engineer class?
Are you for or against random ubers and random dead ringers?
What bluff did I make?
Can you prove that I posed a threat to the MUS thread?
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