• TF2 Random Critical Hits: A Fair and Balanced Discussion
    669 replies, posted
What bluff did you make? Attempting to impersonate an intelligent human being, that's what.
Are you for or against adding more classes to the game, such as another type of engineer?
what does that have to do with the question
If we are talking about fair in the terms of randomness or probability, then the odds don't stop being fair even if you only "flip the coin once".    (Yes, if you flip a coin once then it can't land on heads and tails an even amount.) The thing is that fairness (as the term is used here) isn't defined by equality of the distributions of the outcomes, but by the equality of chance. Distribution of outcomes is not the same as chance (although they are linked). What you seem (to me) to be talking about with your individual crocket example is more distribution, than chance. In that individual skirmish the crit chance isn't unfair, but the distribution of crockets is not equal. You can actually have an equal distribution of outcomes, without the chance being fair. Suppose we have a coin that has 75% chance to land on heads, and 25% chance for tails. You could flip this coin 10 times and have it land on Heads 5 times and tails 5 times. You also could have a perfect 50/50 coin*, and have it land on heads twice and tails 8 times. As to random crits making the game less fun, that is not precisely true. Fun is a subjective thing, and around 50+% of players like R-Crits. *I am talking about a "perfect" coin. Real coins can sometimes land on their edges and are not perfectly balanced.
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/132451/e5705bbc-a5c0-4ac0-a300-bb78c980c5a8/homer.gif
If there are so many pro-crit people, surely there's a wealth of tenable arguments to defend the concept of them. Reddit isn't a majority. Twitter isn't a majority. Youtube isn't a majority. Facepunch isn't a majority. teamfortress.tv isn't a majority. They're small snapshots of parts of the community, and it's patently obvious which subcommunities foster members who care enough to articulate their argument and back things up. I'd much rather trust an economist (whose job is to understand economics) over a news anchor reporting on the stock market (whose job is to look presentable to a mass audience).
Can you prove these accusations?
Questions, questions, questions, don't you have a answer?
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/132767/15707832-3051-40c6-9285-e007cdabfc38/screenshot-forum.facepunch.com-2018.04.11-11-09-28.jpeg https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/132767/192a7465-47e1-41d4-801c-30cec56d9ca1/screenshot-forum.facepunch.com-2018.04.11-11-10-15.jpeg @Hezzy
Answer the fuckin question ASIC this isn't second grade debate class
https://i.imgur.com/ziggMto.png FIFY
hezzy this is your chance to get your rep back up due that entire megathread clusterfuck infront of the tf2 idiots smite him or this will go on forever
pls hezzy smoke this guy for the greater good all he does every day is spam here like a quarantined junkie that really want those crits
Very sorry about the wall of text everyone For example on this post; https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/200318/0fdeb0f0-d212-4427-874f-6e8a07765a60/image.png The whole "Why should skilled players always win" made no sense and you had plenty of opportunities to make a structured reply on how this made sense in the context of TF2 but instead reply; https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/200318/208f7928-8598-4bdd-9906-f5f28243ced6/image.png You had the chance to prove what you said wasnt obviously wrong but you didnt, proving that you are not willing to come up with points for your argument and ignoring the question. Another example is this post; https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/200318/fb89172e-e73c-4b13-abf5-725e944e2936/image.png This also proves that you're dodging the question because you never answered the question and instead asked Fillmore to come up with an answer to prove your own point. I know you're going to see all this but you wont reply because you cherrypick arguments that is in your favor, even if that has counterarguments made, because you still use the flipping coin thing as an argument which proves the other point that you just repeat the same argument but in a slightly different way.
I'd say I am probably against. Not for the reason you are thinking of though. I am going to quote (well, really I am going to put it in codeblocks) something I said if from a previous interation of the "random uber topic" There is a difference between a unique mechanic (or gimmick) in the game and one that isn't in the game, especially when its a broad ranging one. Let me give a (possibly exaggerated) illustration of this: There is a RPG computer game called nethack, the unique mechanic/gimmick* is that the game has permadeath. This is means if you die your save gets erased and you have to start a new game all over from the beginning. People wouldn't want permadeath to be removed from nethack. Maybe they would say it's part of the "Charm" of the game. The thing is that if it didn't have permadeath from the beginning people would not want it to be added because it completely changes the game. *Well it's not that unique as there is a whole genre of games with that gimmick, but I am using it as an example.
asic what you gain from vehemently defending random crits
Here is the first post you took a picture of. TF2 Random Critical Hits "Why do you believe it is good for the team with the greater skill to win?" is a question I asked. The line right beneath it explains why I was asking it: "Even in the case where random crits aren't there, the higher skilled (or effort applying) team doesn't always win. Underdog winners are a thing." Here is the second post you took a picture of. https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/238427/c4cab0ca-e5d5-4a20-8877-d99063f546d0/notcropped.png Here is the original post: TF2 Random Critical Hits I will note that you cropped off the bottom of my post, without telling anyone you did so. You should not do that. Note that I elaborated a little on my explanation. (Although it was cropped out of the image you took). ---------------------------------------------------------------- On to part 2. Here is the 3rd post you took a picture of: I did not ask him any questions there. Most of that post was me answering his question. This part is probably the most core part of my post there, It explained why I believed that random crits are not inherently flawed:
attention
congrats, your reasoning is that it should be in the game because it's in the game, even though with permadeath/roguelike games the gameplay is built around that mechanic whereas it's not in TF2 so, if they were not in the game, would you ask for them to be added? If yes, why random crits over random ubers?
If they were not in the game I would probably not ask for them to be added. In the hypothetical alternate universe where random ubers were in the game I would probably have a ubered avatar argue to keep them in the game..
Why?
Since @Hezzy is around and this petition thing appears to be in style now, can Kaiga be banned? Here is why I am asking: TF2 Random Critical Hits (Note that Kaiga did try to prove this thing he said: "ASIC can be objectively disproven by making a logic table or two with all the if then statements, but thats entirely too much work for him to reply by questioning the nature of truth as an escape argument...", so that can be ignored from that post I linked).
Attempting to deflect your own inadequacies on to me doesn't make you look any less foolish. Quite the opposite. You're just digging yourself in to a deeper hole with every reply. Please stop for your own good.
So you're admitting that you only are using an appeal to antiquity and have no actual argument even in a hypothetical scenario.
My post there (and my previous post in that quote chain) is the explanation of why I argue for something, so sort of my motivation for arguing for it. I did not say anything about the argument I am making for that something in those 2 posts.
Can you give an answer that isn't "Random crits have been in the game since launch and random ubers/dead ringers haven't" and why they're different from random crits? TF2 is a game as a service, anything can be changed at any time. Saying it's tradition doesn't really hold much water. Not being able to pick up dead player's weapons on the battlefield was a tradition up until Gun Mettle and then things changed. And to answer your question about adding another another engineer class no, Valve uses weapons to create sub-classes in TF2, enginneers have the Gunslinger which creates a more attack oriented engineer class. I do support Valve continuing to add new weapons that make sub-classes for different existing classes like the Gunslinger or the Demoknight.
@Hezzy so ASIC pretty much admits to be TF2's Tudd.
I've been following this thread since the beggining, and I think there is nothing else to discuss. Arguments against random crits have been capable of destroying over and over again those that support them. Meanwhile, arguments in favour have been "I like them" or "We have them since the start" with little variation between those two. Personally, I loved the idea of this thread to contain the debate, but it has devolved into a discussion between ASIC and the rest, not because of random crits, but due to ASIC's inability to argue as everyone else does. The original idea of this thread has been completed, the only thing that remains is ASIC's attempts to "argue" to fulfill...  some sort of personal belief? I don't even know at this point.  I wouldn't close this thread, because new users, lurkers or visitors, may be interested to hear these type of arguments in a more "formal" way (in contrast to reddit or the Steam Discussions) until they realize how absurd is trying to defend random crits.
It doesn't matter if it's fair on average. I'm not saying that it's not statistically fair. I'm saying that it's random (and not in an inconsequential way), which is inherently wrong to have in a game that's even slightly competitive. It doesn't feel fair in a skirmish, and it also doesn't add anything to the game. Getting murdered by a stray crocket feels like ass.
You can't deny the upside that once crits get removed you have more potential players going krtiz medic in casual.
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