TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V10 - It is not dead, is Aliven't - Games

I am really glad you've bothered with this. MvM needs WAY more randomness in it to make it more replayable.

I also remember testing a urban map where bots would cap points around buildings and each point was closer to the hatch so you had to re cap the points to push the bot spawn points back. It was really hectic and hard but was fun.

The map you're thinking of is Downtown.

Yeah, but to be fair, the Ambassador even existing was a mistake. Spy should have never been allowed to do headshots, let alone for the sole reason that they had just introduced an equally stupid anti-spy item for the sniper. It was a bad decision piled on top of another bad decision.

you're using LC wrong then if you're trying to go for a donk every shot. simple as that.

well great Do you disagree that a more randomized MvM would make it a LOT more interesting and replayable?

yes. because different templates are inherently easier than others, so having a wave decide to be a unecessary pain in the butt because of rng isn't fun. same with routes. People often reroll routes if the mission hasn't begun yet.

MVM is pretty much the only reason I play Team Fortress right now so kudos for bringing something new to the table. Have a diamond!

when you stagger it with untimed shots it doesn't make much of a difference https://i.imgur.com/wt6tnQQ.png

IDC about charts, you said you had to "wait and be vulnerable" or something. No you don't. Use impacts to keep foes away and bring them in midrange where you can attempt donks.

the chart shows that using 2 stock nades is such a superior strategy LC makes no sense

That just means shitty balance. Of course there would be slight differences in difficulty, but optimally, there shouldnt be the largest. As far as the route thing goes, that can be solved. Playing the same missions over and over again is boring.

Welcome to the Well update! AT 20:00 UTC+3 we will be playing at the EU server to play (or until people get sick of it).Koth,arena,cp or ctf anything you want in well. Please try to join the server i dont want to await alone with 2 other people playing harvest again

Designing robots that are different enough to keep it fresh yet sidegrade with eachother isn't easy. I speak from experience because I've made over 25 missions with alot of passion and thoughts in them. you want randomness or not? I don't follow here. for you... The lesson we ought to learn here is people that know little about a subject shouldn't go around and tell how it should be done. This is eeringly similar to pub tf2 telling comp tf2 what to do. mvm isn't for you. It's that simple. And no, making a good mvm map isn't easier than pvp. Mannhattan is an excellent showcase of how badly it can go wrong because a single scottish resistance can solo it.

Regardless of whether or not Fluury is an MvM veteran, shouldn't any hypothetical MvM developments target issues such as longevity among the more casual playerbase? Fluury isn't alone here; one of the primary reasons I haven't touched MvM in years is precisely because once I completed the missions, I had no incentive to play them again beyond acquiring randomized items I can attain by simply purchasing them from a storefront. MvM has a problem with maintaining player interest, and similar wave-based shooters such as Killing Floor 2 overcome this obstacle by introducing variables, some of which are randomized.

mvm needs updates to maintain interest, yes.

It isn't simply a matter of releasing updates to maintain interest. By making the gameplay loop more dynamic, there are more experiences to be had in the interim between updates.

For those not subscribed to Dr. Face, he just released a video about an amazing new Deathrun map he worked on releasing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8NKDAXMUUM The attention to detail is astounding, and I'm super excited to try the map out.

yep, we achieve this by trying out different setups and loadouts. Unfortunately there's no reason to do this when an item or ability is just braindead overpowered. The 2$ / a game requirement is also a major turnoff that's pretty much ridicule and downright an insult by now. Even 2$ per tour could be questionable at this point. Bootcamp is not a reliable way to have a good time in mvm and isn't a solution.

Unlike dedicated co-op wave shooters, balancing TF2 for MvM is that much more difficult when the base PVP modes take precedent. A meta is always going to develop, no matter how hard a developer tries to balance the options, and the existence of PVP adds another layer of complication to their efforts. Relying on different setups and loadouts to inject the experience with variety is putting the onus on the players to conjure up their own methods of abating boredom, rather than having the game provide that variety itself. Dynamic difficulty and less predictable waves is a sound method of accomplishing this.

Well, if you absolutely want the tower defense mode to not be tower defense, I imagine you could try out "Stop That Tank". It's even got real people you can make ragequit!

Tower defense can have dynamic difficulty though? Also a majority of MVM maps aren't tower-defense, just "don't let bots carry X to your spawn". It wouldn't be hard to do variable waves and still have the gamemode be balanced. Hell, you could start with waves with organized spawn routines like regular MVM waves, but the bots are spawned at random intervals in groups, much like KF2 (groups of Scout bots, 2 or 3 Heavy bots with 2 or 3 Medic bots, 5 Soldier bots leading 5 Demo or Pyro bots).

Snooping around the community, talking with friends and just players - Why do you think people aren't playing any mission but 2Cities anymore? It sure as hell isn't "because I already tried every single loadout to kill the same Big heavy and his medic" I don't doubt that there are people out there that enjoy that kind of stuff, but I am certain it isn't the majority. Me not being the 2k tier 2Cities dude doesn't exactly change anything of what I said? As Exor said, it's about making the gameplay loop more interesting and enjoyable for the broad majority of players. Very big difference between edurado.minecraft, 200 hour pub-lord saying that Competitive should revolve about Pyro and me simply suggesting a different roll on MvM. And the balancing statement wasn't about map-design; It was about the balance of randomized waves and the like. Your statement of a single ScoRes Demo can do it only applies to an extreme minority. I am talking from the perspective of the broad majority. Do you have any other arguments that speak against a randomized-wave system? I don't exactly feel any different trying to do the same wave but with a different weapon. You do have a point though; The meta-game in MvM does add to making it be more repetitive. From a pure developer perspective, a randomized system would maintain interest in MvM with no additional development time outside of creating the RNG-system in the first place. By making the gameplay-loop more interesting and less stale, people would play for more than "shiny gold weapon".

because it's the latest addition and it also holds more prizes. Oil Spil land Steel Trap are open scams. this pretty much confirms you have no idea what you're talking about unfortunately. Everyone does this and it's very easy because you just need to shoot at 1 spot on the floor and you'll solo 90% of mannhattan whilst the 5 other dudes clean up the rest. "we need random bots and endless mode" isn't a revelation you come up with today. It's been tried out before, it's not fun. It already exists under community servers and it's basically just as bad as a trade server. Seek out "_30waves" or even "_100waves". You hold on to that idea very tightly and you'll still hate it and leave after 5 minutes. Another point is If you "main" a class in TF2 and you desperately want to only play your PvP loadout exclusively in mvm then you're gonna get bored no matter what. I shared all the points I needed to and it'll just go in a pointless loop from on here. I believe we're done.

Because it's the only tour with good loot.

Well yes, but because the gameplay has gotten so stale, loot is the only reason people bother playing.

the "farmers" is a demographic you generally shouldn't think about. Much like "friendlies" or "traders" are to pvp.

I don't think randomness is the way to go to make mvm more dynamic. Maps would benefit a lot from having multiple missions for each difficulty. If you want to play bigrock, or the 2city maps, there is only one intermediate/normal mission, but adding more mission difficullties would mean you're not playing the same mission every time you play bigrock. I think the contract system is a good way to spice up mvm, along with the changes hell-met suggested (expert changes especially are good onces) Contracts would have to be built carefully though, to avoid people ruining the higher difficulty missions by being useless trying to get 20 ubersaw kills, while their team is being spawn locked. But if you can make it good, it would add a lot of inventive for people to re-visit missions and try different things.

I wouldn't mind if contracts were never invented and instead MvM continued to be the lootmine of tf2 because currently PvP is like Q: why are you acting like an idiot A: contracts

if contracts never existed Q: why are you acting like an idiot A: it only casual leaf me alone