TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V12 - Miniguns are SCARY - look it up - Games

Depends on what you mean by "died". TF2's development team exists solely because of the TF2 economy. It is the only revenue stream TF2 has and without it, it would've made no financial sense to continue You're not representative. The base game is great, yeah. It's awesome. It's one of the best games ever made. It would have almost no active playerbase without items. People don't play TF2 over a decade since its launch just because it's a good game. That is not sufficient to keep a playerbase. People stick around that long because they have invested something in TF2. In your case it may be a lot of time, but for a lot of other users it's the inventory they've built up -- even if they've never spent a cent on the game. You have a warped view of TF2 if its economy isn't the largest pillar that's propping up an 11 year old game.

Aww, so Halloween gifts don't spawn anymore? Shame.

They were replaced by the Soul Gargoyle in Scream Fortress 2015.

That bites.

The closest equivalent is that you get bunches of souls that spawn on the map in the same way.

I like using the Scorch Shot because it's good at harassing snipers.

And it annoys the fun away from everyone else.

I think anyone with a basic understanding of business can make the connection that if something makes a company money, its worth their time. The decision to go free to play is what lead this game to its dependency on earnings from trades and store bought keys/items. I'm not retarded enough to think one thing can represent the majority. Don't twist my praise for the game into some egotistical standard you think I have. Experience tells me that if people didn't like the base game there would be no reason for the heavy investments in the first place. Yes, hats brought a lot of people into the game, but it also drove a way just as many if not the bugs and direction the game has gone over the years. Without the hats this game could be dead or entirely different by this point, but what matters to me and evidently a lot of other people is where the revenue this game still makes pushes it to next. This latest update, after having waited a year for it, consisted entirely of community based content apart from the one major exploit fix and the voice lines that were recorded over a year ago. Valve is hardly touching this beast anymore. I don't think the economy is nearly as relevant as it was prior to 2014 at this point. I strongly believe that while its still kickin' the main reason TF2 is still around is because its: Widely known Free to play; If I had some statistics to look at, I'd wager they'd point to the majority of the playerbase being new with a relatively high turnover rate. Its no secret that a lot of players come back to see the state of the game when updates release. You'd be wrong to assume "a lot of time" is what keeps me playing Team Fortress 2. My investment with money or time means nothing compared to my desire for a well balanced, high skill ceiling environment in a First Person shooter that offers well designed and consistent gameplay. The core of TF2 offers just that (with some flaws) and recently I've found the same thing in Rising Storm 2: Vietnam (Specifically in the Skirmish 8v8 gamemode). What keeps me playing Team Fortress 2 is the fact that I've yet to find a game that does it better and is still active. ... So right back at you! While some people might feel like the money or time they've invested into Team Fortress 2 is an obligation to continue playing it no matter how awful the game gets, this is not representative of the playerbase! ... You're not representative. ... Wait a minute... Isn't this just the converse of what I said?

Anybody come across this great menu bug when you find a new item where none of the buttons are actually clickable, and so you're forced to restart the game in order to get rid of?

Press Enter my dude.

Except it isn't because the Danger Shield exists. If anything, it's a minot inconvenience.

Funny, just like Sniper does. Sniper is the least deserving class for an anti-Pyro weapon.

If a sniper takes up their secondary slot exclusively because you're using the scorch shot, that sounds like good harassment to me tbh

Good news: if one of your contracts glitches out like mine did and doesn't give you your reward, you'll receive it next time you boot up TF2.

I feel bad because while you made a completely valid argument, Geel just committed what we in business call a "conflict of interests". No shit he's going to be super into the idea that only the item economy keeps TF2 alive, for the past 2+ years his sites have basically been the core pillars of the economy. He's supplanted historically populous sites like Tf2outpost and TF2wh.

I don't like this because it misses the point - the point isn't supposed to be that the economy is literally the only thing keeping the game alive. Well I mean to be fair if this game wasn't free it would undoubtedly be dead at this point, but that isn't really the crux. It's not that the economy is the ONLY thing keeping this game up, but that in-game economies, or 'games outside of games' or whatever you want to call them, are a provably massive factor when it comes to games staying power. We see the same shit happening from the dawn of MMO titles. it doesn't make a difference to you maybe, but the fact is that for a large amount of people, in game economies are a huge factor, and are 100% a factor to keeping players coming back. It isn't representative of 100% of the player base, but it's representative of enough people that it's relevant, meanwhile it's pretty safe to say that the majority of players looking for a well balanced highly skilled fps are not playing tf2, as it is not at any point both of these things at once

"well balanced highly skilled fps" is pretty subjective though. Some people may see Overwatch as that, some people may see Halo 5 as that, some people may see PUBG as that.

from what i've seen, the majority of people don't perceive TF2 as this crazy-deep mechanical shooter, at least not actively (though it is one, even in pub play) what people seem to like most about TF2 is crazy, chaotic fun. it doesn't take itself as seriously as games like OW or CS or whathaveyou, so general salt and toxicity is quite a bit lower here than it is in other popular multiplayer titles. and while many may not recognize the gameplay depth, it's still there, still fun and still keeps people coming back, because there's always something new to do + always a feeling of constant improvement.

yeah of course it's subjective and what the person thinks is relevant on the other hand, like contra said if it's by what the popular opinion thinks then tf2 is generally not considered high skill and on the 3rd hand, highly skilled is not really subjective because there are immutable factors to skilled fps that isn't subjective, such as 'how difficult is it to aim in the game' which for games such as overwatch you can say well the characters move swampily, the hitboxes are quite big, so therefore it's quite easy. In tf2 you'd probably say it's not an aim heavy game because a lot of the characters have quite low standards for aiming, but on the other hand the characters move very crispily so it can be harder to aim than overwatch for instance. not that aiming is the only factor of a skilled game or anything, just giving an example of a factor that isn't necessarily subjective (of course it's a bit relative because someone who comes from another game and is more trained in crosshair placements and angling could probably struggle in the more arcadey aim style but then we'd have to talk about which factors of aiming are harder which is pretty long so i'm just gonna stick to comparing 2 arcadey ones)

This is unrelated because I don't really have interest in argument and just wanted to interject that skill-based is subjective, but if you think Overwatch is an easy-aim game you either don't play it or are insane. The amount of mobility makes it an actual pain to aim, combine that with the fact that only 3 Heroes ever leave first-person view (Reinhardt, Brigitte, and Wrecking Ball) outside of very specific situations, which means a lot more disorientation after slashing in as Genji or blinking around as Tracer. Overwatch is genuinely the only game I've ever played where I actually get wrist pain because I have to swing around wildly so much.

Economy is just a part of what makes TF2 still kicking after 11 years. However, remove it, and TF2 loses a lot of its charm. The TF2 community is super diverse and removing any of these aspects would make TF2 no longer be the game it is: There are the people who just come and play Casual sometimes to have some good fun. There are traders, who have thousands of dollars worth in their inventories and play in trade servers. There are the extremely competitive people, playing MGE's, 6s and Highlander mostly, in lots of different leagues. There are the ones who sometimes play Casual to have relaxed fun, sometimes Competitive to have the great skill-based action. There are the community server people, playing the wacky modes. There are also players playing in their communities' servers playing vanilla maps. There are the modders/content creators, who spend more time creating content for TF2 than playing the actual game. There are the MvM regulars, passionate about the game mode. These categories can also obviously mix, and that is one of the things that make TF2 a great game. There's just so much you can do in it.

you know the base game is awesome when even something as vile as random crits couldn't halt tf2's success

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrEPGEaIrrg the Tiny spell seems to do a good job on breaking maps

I'm not certain of where in my post I make the case that there is one single factor for what keeps the game alive. In fact I listed 3 different factors I believe influence the state of the game more so than most other factors. I can wrap my head around the idea that the in-game economy extended the game's life-span but I can't justify the idea that its the "largest pillar that's propping up an 11 year old game." I make the claim that its losing its relevance in recent years due to the stagnation its experiencing. The lack of a solution for a metal sync of the sorts is also a huge thorn in the side and has been for years. The average value of trades has significantly dropped in comparison to before. You're extremely hard pressed to find anyone willing to purchase something for the sake of collecting it these days. I've spent a fair amount of time in trade servers but I don't consider myself to be an expert economist. This is just what I've observed. The core of TF2 offers just that (with some flaws) in a First Person shooter that offers well designed and consistent gameplay. I feel like these were ignored. Partly due to how vague "well designed" is, but for the most part I like Team Fortress 2's class variety and how it manages to create a relatively consistent environment for countering and general interactions. Unlike a majority of the games out there you can immediately identify the danger you are in when spotting an enemy in TF2. Even with the hats obscuring outlines of classes, this game isn't some super realistic shooter with camo on just about every inch of your body, not to mention you can still run the game in DX8. A game like Counter-Strike Global Offensive is consistent, but its also very rigid and doesn't have the variety that you see in TF2. I can't rocket jump over the AWPer to catch him by surprise around a corner.

Ask yourself why it went free to play. A $20 one-time fee to buy the game and play it is not going to be a viable revenue source 11 years down the line. Why did you feel the need to use a slur? Of course it's a good game. But I'm saying that's not enough. Good games don't last 11 years on the gameplay alone. They last because something keeps players engaged. For a huge amount of players that's the economy, even if they themselves aren't "traders". Everyone has hats. I don't think this is correct at all. It flies in the face of reason. If you truly think the economy drove away "just as many" players as it's helped retain (bullshit) then the game would be dead, no question. We didn't wait a year for this update. This is not what they have been spending a year working on. This is a disingenuous argument. As someone who actually has insight into the matter and has numbers from not only my own websites but the SCM: you're wrong. Why is it widely known? How can it sustain being free to play? What system provides Valve a financial incentive to continue releasing all these updates? "Economy" is a large component of #1 and the only answer to #2 and #3. These exist elsewhere. You don't play them because you're not used to them. You're used to TF2. You're comfortable with it. You know its ins and outs. That's called a time investment. I'm not representative either (I don't even fucking trade), but I have a whole lot of data and experience that shows that the economy is the single largest driver behind TF2's continued relevance. Here's what it comes down to: When I was at TotH 2018 I was talking to Erynn, the co-creator of Pugchamp and Mixchamp. These websites offer pug services for higher-level competitive players. Erynn was talking about how they barely (or don't) cover the costs of hosting their services. The only people making any amount of money off TF2 are Valve and people who are involved in the economy. Full stop. Any service geared towards people who love the game for its mechanics is woefully underutilized and unable to turn any real profit. Follow the money. That's not to say that the only metric for quality is "how much money is this making", but it proves my point: TF2's continued development resources and relevance are due almost entirely to its in-game economy.

I really wish we had sv_pure 0 back on Valve servers. I wouldn't go so far to say I'm full-on arachnophobic, but the new Pyro mask is close enough to a real spider to freak me out a little bit. I wish I could mod in a replacement model.

Would it ease you at all to let you know that a majority of spiders are actually beneficial to humans (they eat insects) and only a select few species are actually dangerous? Because that being beaten into my brain helped a bunch. Like the myth that the Daddy long-leg species (which aren't even spiders) have deadly venom but their fangs are too small to bite humans? Mostly a lie, they aren't dangerous to humans in any way. A lot of spider-related "propaganda" for lack of a better word is purely fabricated, just like what's been done with bees and sharks. I obviously still refuse to have spiders crawl on me among other things (because i'm incredibly skiddish and was once bitten by my grandparents' dog which only worsened my jumpiness), but I'm a lot more resistant to actually seeing spiders now. TBH I think both of the new spider cosmetics are actually pretty cute, especially the shoulder spider.

sv_pure was easier then fixing the actual exploits.

Oh I know that my chances of being actually hurt by a spider are almost zero, it's just sort of an instinctive thing for me.

Same. I'm fully aware of the real dangers of spiders (none day-to-day) and their ecological benefits. Fuck them though.