TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V12 - Miniguns are SCARY - look it up - Games

Even if that were the case, how does one go about solving that problem?

Knowing Valve and their apathy towards the game nowadays, I don't think we'll be getting a new game engine port any time soon. All you can look forward is a bit of optimization of the engine it currently uses and that's just about it.

well not really or do you think the tf team is at fault for not getting more devs?

they're at fault for being dishonest and not telling what's happening with the game. the blog has alot of explaining to have. the state and future of the game how "TFTEAM" really works and why they constantly shift people around what they even think of balance and why this or that is fine or not (is it normal when your competitive community is 20x better and more knowledgeable than you are at your own game?) why they constantly break their own guidelines why they constantly import garbage from csgo (skins) and dota (now we're getting "skill names" like sketchek's bequest and nature call) actually acknowledge and explain problems such as diminishing interest and why support is pretty much being halved every year each year stop thinking "radio silence is better otherwise ppl get mad " maybe put a halt to bloating the game with medals and hats and start cleaning shit up? explain the catastrophe that is mvm after 6 years of nothing

Quickplay: You join a server. You take a look at whats happening. If the scoreboard is any indicator it'll be real obvious if its balanced or not. Leave and find another. Matchmaker: You join a server. You take a look at whats happening. Fair amount of games haven't started yet, so you'll have to wait a minute or two. Regardless of whether the other team is better than yours or vice versa. The moment people leave your team the outcome becomes clear. You are not meant to "Leave and find another" as frequently. What is so hard about this concept of judging it for yourself instead of leaving it to some automated system? I'm actually getting sick of this shit. You make a generalized statement about how people like to mimic zombies and then immediately claim you can't make generalizations. Half the arguments on this board are about claims being equated to the voice of many when in fact most of the time its just a single man's opinion. Nowhere in the post you're responding to do I make subjective statements that are meant to represent the view of many. You have some how confused the method of judgement I use to gauge what players are capable of based on the hours they have as some kind of definitive ladder for social standings. Not everyone learns at the same pace, but there is an average time it takes for people to learn and start to master different concepts. Over the 11 years I've been playing TF2 I've come to determine based on my observations that these hour marks are fairly accurate when it comes to determining what the player knows and doesn't know about TF2. You can't get any of that out of a Casual Medal. Just a reminder: But of course none of these are consistent representations. They are not a good method of judging, but because its the fastest way to an inaccurate answer I use this as the basis of my argument. Anyone under Tier 2/3 or something wouldn't even be a "player", though. If you seriously expect players can experience and learn everything about the game by "Tier 2/3" I'm not certain we're playing the same game.

The Quickplay experience was more like this : Join a server. Look at the scoreboard. Realize you can't exactly perfectly measure the balance because for all you know 3 people have been on the server for the past 4 hours racking up points and that points are basically not relevant. Leave and find another - maybe it has players. Realize there is no guarantee that youll get a proper match because its quickplay. The problem you described in Casual is very real, but from my experience, I have more games where people stick to the server and the game is decently balanced than the latter. Judging yourself is inaccurate and doesn't work, in my opinion atleast. I see that we simply have different outlooks when it comes to this, so let's agree to disagree. "Both teams must play out the objective otherwise there is no meaning to the game other than mindless fuckery." - Some people find a different meaning to be "fun". This is the generalization I was referring to, or well definition. And yeah, thats very much the vibe atleast I got. If I have to prove my big gamerscore for TF2 In the mere 8 years I played this game I simply have a different view of what a "new" player is. It takes a long time to git gud, but I wouldn't call a player that can't properly pogo a new player. Then again as you said, this is just arguing over definitions. If I glance over the casual scoreboard and see players which are mostly red ranked, I can expect a match where I don't see snipers shooting windows, don't expect "question mark" avatars which ask how to go invisible or expect any of the other stuff you described. Players won't learn every single aspect of TF2 by Tier 2/3. Hell I don't even know if that's possible by Tier 8. I'm just baffled by your descriptions of players, but once again, that's just definitions. If you want a good system that actually works, Overwatch has decent Quickplay. I'd trade TF2 map selection if the TF Team got rid of maps like Junction or Dustbowl any day for that.

I think they're entirely at fault for the abhorrent class imbalance that has burdened this game since 2007; I think they're entirely at fault for failing to rectify that imbalance; I think they're entirely at fault for their inability to establish a coherent ethos, leading to contradictory outcomes; I think they're entirely at fault for impulsive decisions that harm the game in the long term; I think they're entirely at fault for introducing new feature after new feature and subsequently abandoned them; I think they share fault in the blundered launch of Competitive; I think they're entirely at fault for their poor communication skills; I think they're entirely at fault for alienating veteran players; I think they're entirely at fault for poor time management; I think they're entirely at fault for taking years to fix glaring mistakes, to the point where the average player will never realize those mistakes were mended due to natural player churn; and I blame them entirely for making my time with this game an embittering roller coaster ride of disappointment and misplaced hope.

Literally always been this way. I remember troubleshooting it for someone in like, uhh, mid-2008.

I'm so confused now. I distinctly remember things like the pyro's bubble pipe, the quick fix, and the haunted hat (to name a few) that didn't do this before. I went out to try and find some sort of proof that it did work correctly at some point and I was able to find something. Ivan The Inedible's wiki demonstration page has a video of it rendering in front of the wire fence. https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/57947/affe15c9-0dbb-420c-816b-2b5c7add1f5f/TEST2.jpg Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2WAYFrBVrE (dated 2014, 4 years ago) But if I go ingame and go to the exact same map Ivan now renders behind the fence. https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/57947/a0b34cae-a5ad-4dc0-b56e-0686be0d24af/TEST.jpg I'm convinced I'm not crazy and this stuff did work at some point and has broken at some point since at least 2014.

i unboxed one case this whole year https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/272579/cc0a1e82-42c1-4f39-a0a0-b488ff8223ec/20181031161841_1.jpg applied it and got spooky night

Looks like I wasn't specific enough? Quickplay: You join a server. You take a look at whats happening. If the scoreboard (Rounds won by TEAMS) is any indicator it'll be real obvious if its balanced or not. Leave and find another. Out of interest, if what you say is true can you share with me how many casual games you've played? What region of servers you're playing on, and maybe even time of day? Out of the 9375 games I've played, the clear majority of them were absolute stomps. One way or the other. I'm not sure if this stat was reset after they wiped ranks. I'm not trying to suggest the "bigger gamerscore" is an important factor in providing a basis for an argument. I'm trying to emphasize the sample size of games I've had the opportunity to observe over time. This stat doesn't show anything prior to the Match Maker tracking it so... Its limited. https://puu.sh/BUbcD/df85be182b.png Ever since the rank wipe I haven't really touched Competitive. The queue times are far too long and the chance of running into cheaters you are powerless to do anything about is beyond annoying. Played it a lot in the beta though; "Lain is the reelest G" https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/315994/ee14d198-cdc6-4039-9baa-4ae35a0a3042/Top 10 Comp Beta.jpg This wasn't a generalization. Its a fact. Its either a well matched game in which both sides have the same amount of people playing the objective AND fuckin about in spawn.. OR its an unorganized and unbalanced one sided game that won't last long or entertain anyone for very long. I'm NOT making the argument that everyone enjoys the same thing. I'm making the claim that if there is an uneven number of people doing the same thing as the other team it will tip the balance resulting in a mixed experience.

People trying their best makes all forms of the game fun. Why do you think there are high scores and achievements and kill streaks that go up to 20:1? Casual is not defined by people being automatically bad or memeing instead of playing, it’s just the version of the game (a skill based team shooter) that accommodates the most players, maps, play styles, items, skill ranges, etc. and where nothing save for a little exp is on the line during the match. That lowers the skill floor a lot because there are obvious gaps in balance that valve hasn’t fixed in the form of weapons and map issues, as well as things like class stacking and dumpster tactics like 10 demos and medic (something valve comp doesn’t address, which is also why it’s not played when you can get the same experience for more fun in casual) Contrast that to competitive, where all this is limited by the rules or enforced by the metagame if you want to win. Some of the best, purest tf2 experiences people describe were community pub servers full of communities of veteran players just blasting away after a long day at work, 12v12 on some enormous payload map full of banter and interaction. That’s hardly Esports Leauge serious or 24/7 ponyfort sandvich picnic, but it definitely leans towards people trying to use their class to its fullest potential.

Well, $translucent always had sorting issues, since the inception of the Source Engine. They might have changed some things in 2014 however.

Just updated my post with a screenshot from 2017 this time with the bubble pipe. I'm still convinced it worked before but in the last year, probably Jungle Inferno, it all broke.

This was far more succinct than what I could come up with and drives the important point across that even if everyone in the server has 5 thousand hours in the game they can play less seriously and still have fun knowing that the other team is doing just the same and can still play at their level. The moment that balance tips no matter the circumstances its going to start pressuring the people on both sides. In Casual you get a lot of instances where people rage quit over the dumbest things, but not before calling you a slur in chat.

Nah, I'm 100% sure there were issues like this before Jungle Inferno. But this issue is incredibly inconsistent: sometimes even Jarate doesn't render the jar.

Ignoring the unfolding slap fight for a second, I've got some good, if mostly trivial news: Deep searching on the SCM has been broken for months now. Say you wanted to search the SCM for: Game: TF2 Class: Heavy Quality: Strange Item: Primary Weapon Description text includes: professional killstreak team shine fire horns exorcism For the last two months or so you will get bag GARBAGE, especially if you try to sort by price. If you were lucky, you'd get every instance of the search terms "OR" not ALL of the search terms "AND." If you were unlucky, you got "fuck you." Well, Valve have (mostly) fixed it. For instance this search is returning valid results. I forgot to mention this, but weeks ago I sent an email to Valve via their contact page, complaining about this very issue. I never heard back from them (shocker, I know) and it's more than likely that my complaint had nothing to do with the SCM getting (mostly) fixed, but I'll take it.

How bizarre, I guess I should type up and email and send it off to Eric with as much visual proof as I can find. Hopefully, and that's some pretty big wishing on my end, that they can actually figure out the issue. I really wish TF2 would do another Hatless update where they clean up the game like that update did.

Yeah it makes finding cards and backgrounds a nightmare even when simply sorting by game name. 400 pages...

There might've been some backend change but I swear to god it's always happened. It's something I regularly have to deal with in SFM and SFM has not had an update since 2013.

this is completely unrelated to everything else but i have nowhere to post it but this thread i had a lengthy adventure dream last night, and at some point in that dream, for whatever reason, i took tf team jill out to dinner and blew it, presumably delaying the update even further into the future sorry guys

i feel contracts are definately the way to go for teaching players the mechanics; noone wants to stop and play simon says, they want to learn from experiementing and testing things in a real enviroment, and things like free contracts to access all weapons should definately be the next step in tf's evolution. Stuff like getting the battalions backup from doing X amount of damage in one life would great: it would give new players a reward for trying a new method of playing, and at the same time, teach them the playstyle you need to practice in order to make that weapon truly effecient. Hope they go forward with that, as the new pyro weapons was very nice; however it was a bit overly niche and too difficult for certain new players, so hopefully easier contracts that focus on teaching more would be better.

I think simple tutorials to learn the basics concepts of the rest of the classes (especially Medic) and MVM, a good training level like tr_walkway built into the game, and a more obvious place than stats to read all the tips would be very helpful for new players, as well as more tips for game modes other than arena, and tips for the newer weapons (side note, pretty sure the official wiki is missing a bunch of tips). Finally, using contracts to reward weapons is a great idea, and maybe give more of a focus on the achievements that reward class weapons by having a dedicated area for them (showing the weapon you'll get, showing your progress, in a menu that looks better than using the old source engine UI to filter through 900+ achievements). Also if I remember correctly coaching isn't possible in casual mode servers, and might be helpful for some players. I think the game right now is super complicated for new players because of all the different weapons, but I don't really think that's fixable aside from matchmaking all new players together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYqCi6o5r5I

I'm certain Valve thinks the same way with how they've made all of their titles. Not a single one of Valve's games forces you into a tooltip charade that takes you out of the world's immersion. Contracts might be a good way to teach players but describing the various technical skills in a short and decipherable manner would be quite the challenge. I remember achievements being a main driving force in what drove players to discover the various things they could do in Team Fortress 2. But with the achievements being the broken mess they are and quite a few being completely invalidated or made impossibly difficult due to the nature of the matchmaker... Its probably not a good idea to be designating servers for new players only. If no one in the server has a real understanding of what they're meant to be doing they'll have no one to look to for an example. It also severs any opportunities for these new players to reach out to a more knowledgeable player for some initial help. It sucks getting clobbered when you start up a new game for the first time, but its like that anywhere you go. Backbones and the will to learn more about a game you're interested seem to be a thing of the past these days.

They are at fault for the things you mentioned. No one is trying to argue otherwise. That still doesn't change the fact that they aren't at fault for not getting more developers that might speed up fixing certain issues. Round won by teams barely tells you any information. You don't know if the outcome was lead by a few select players, you don't know if the rounds were close or extreme rolls. In some gamemodes like payload, teams are switching constantly. You can't rely on that information. If you wanna see my big dong gamerscore, here it is https://i.imgur.com/halEClP.png Far away from the amount of Casual games you played but Id argue it's enough to get a decent idea of how matches look like; And for me, they usually aren't stomps. There sure as hell are stomps, but it isn't the quote normal. I usually play with another person or two at peak-ish times or deep into the night; I don't know if maybe because we are facing different parties(?) that this might affect the matchmaker, who knows, I just know that from my personal perception, they mostly aren't stomps. Also about competitive; How long are your queue times? Comp queue times, atleast for me, usually only take roughly 5~ ish minutes if you aren't doing it at 2am. Cheaters I also actually rarely meet in it. The issues that makes competitive so mediocre arise from soemthing else but these two things are probably the lesser evils. I'd actually go as far and say out of these 250 matches, only 10 were like.... fun and good and rather equal. And about the last point; Fair enough. I probably misunderstood you, because I agree with that sentiment, so sorry that we argued over nothing for a bit. I don't exactly understand your point; I agree. That's why I didn't play a lot of Quickplay back when community servers were alive; They are objectively better in almost every way. I just view Casual as this mixed... mess. Why do you think Valve hasn't decided to fix that issue yet? Because there are some madmen out there that think class stacking is an integral part of casual. I find that to be stupid, but that's what these people define as "Casual" and there are a lot of those.

You’re not going to get clobbered if Getting a boot up the ass after just installing is part of any game with a skill range, however getting clobbered uneducationally is what causes people to leave for lack of instant gratification and entitlement; something demanded by this generation of gamers. (I’m going to describe Overwatch here, if you feel I’m just shitting on it for no reason ask yourself if it isn’t true first) This is why in addition to mechanical skillshots answer regular gunplay, Overwatch has a lot of the things you normally do with skills like rocket jumping or large damage outputs bottled up behind ability buttons- push button, get positive result. Push button in right circumstance, with teammates also pushing buttons that work well together, you and get a bigger reward. The thing in TF2 is, the game is so reliant on deathmatch aim combat, that the only thing you could be doing wrong is having slower reflexes than the opponent, or worse decision making and you will still get clobbered in the thousand different ways you can lose combat in the game. Tutorials will (should) teach you about team strength, map knowledge, class features and all the things you need to get going, but unless there’s some focus on actual combat training that’s a better representation than offline bot mode, players will still leave after being outplayed because they can do everything else’s right and still be stomped, without any guaranteed damage outputs or game affecting abilities at their disposal instantly like in Overwatch. Some sort of tr_walkway mge hybrid like Overwatch has would make things better as a compliment to an official tutorial. Valve can learn a lot from this game. All hope isn’t lost however, as if the casual matchmaker puts players on teams with mixed enough skill levels that there are; A: enough players of their ability to be on an even fight with and B: experienced players to learn from either by example on both teams Then you will have a much better player experience. Relegating casual to a noob fest isn’t the solution at all.

But how will the matchmaker calculate how much skilled someone is or make apart new people from smurf?

Thought; there's a lot of Valve made weapons you can't get via achievements. Why not add some contracts so players can unlock the Escape Plan, Gunboats, etc.

I never said they were, but then again, five core programmers isn't anything to sneeze at considering the size of Valve's other teams. They should be able to accomplish much more than they're outputting.