TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V13 - Heavy times - Games

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The Shotgun is insanely balanced for Pyro, Engineer and Soldier, but I dont think it is for Heavy. Not sure how that works but I think it fits.

I would be 100% up for this. Valve used up the last of their goodwill a long time ago and they are completely delusional about this fact.

that's because it's insanely redundant on the heavy, especially if you have any sort of ammo management skill

Only way to make the shotgun a competitive option for Heavy is to change Heavy at his fundamental core in a way that lets him weapon-switch in a meaningful length of time, otherwise he'll just commit to his minigun every time. Minigun does so much damage at the same range that shotgun does that it's rendered obsolete on day 0. When the game launched, Heavy had to spin up for a full second so at least there was a reason to carry a shotgun around, but after being buffed in 119th that window is more and more irrelevant.

Shotgun on heavy is only a prequel to the lunchboxes. Its good, but its not the sandwich.

Probably not controversial but still notable opinions of my own: Sandvich was the best weapon introduced to TF2 both gameplay-wise and personality-wise Kritzkrieg is the most well-balanced and consistently viable non-stock weapon in the game Engineer update was the "healthiest" (in terms of improving and giving variety to a class that sorely needed it) update Payload is the best gamemode to be introduced specifically for TF2 (this one is a HUGE IMO, but it's such a well-balanced and fun mode that I really can't see any arguments for, say, KOTH or CP being better except that CP was one of the original modes and KOTH being an FPS classic)

The only way the shotgun can be made viable is if there's a Heavy primary that trades off the minigun for increased mobility, better passive survivability, and buffs other aspects of Heavy's secondary and melee arsenal such as increased reserve capacity and faster reloads for the shotguns, faster restocks on lunchbox items, and allowing the Heavy to do a short range charge that can either bodyslam enemies or do a critical punch. Yes this does turn the heavy into a very fat demoknight, but at least he'll be a lot more effective at it because he has self sustainability with faster lunchbox restock, can catch up to his enemies much faster with increased base speed, make better use out of his melee with a right click charge, and has the option to pick off enemies beyond his melee range with a hitscan weapon. It's a joke weapon by most standards, but at least it opens up a new playstyle than being a mobile sentry gun.

I'll keep suggesting it until I die: Riot Shield Heavy primary. The specifics aren't as important as the main goals: A. provide Heavy with a way to lead pushes against heavily-offensive teams when a Uber just isn't enough, B. Offer an alternate playstyle to his usual tanky monster with high DPS as a more classic tank role, and C. to give shotgun any usage beyond none at all. It could go any number of ways - it could be innate resistances and a passive item ala Demoknight's Targe, except instead of a charge function it just gives a lot of reistences. It could be an active item like Brigitte's shield in Overwatch, either slowing or increasing Heavy's movespeed depending on balance issues. It could be destroyed and have to be replenished, or it could be consistent, again like Demo's Targe. The core feature that would necessitate it even being worth pursuing would be that, much like real-life riot shields, Heavy could still use his Shotgun (or Sandvich I guess) secondary with it equipped/active. For added fun, he could also use his melee, since he's the only class in the game that can use either Left or Right fire when melee is equipped. "But uber exists in the game already! So additions focused on pushing would be unnecessary!" The idea of the weapon isn't solely just to provide an option for offensive pushes. Heavy as a class is probably the most straightforward and simplistic - use your minigun to shoot people. Heavy doesn't have a lot of options. Tomislav offers a unique more discreet playstyle, but usually, Heavy has to be played defensively, or he'll be peeked to death or mowed down by any group because he tried to peek out of his safe space. Long gone are the days of Heavy ubers being effective beyond pubs, and even as an experienced Heavy player, unless I was decimating the enemy team completely, I'd almost always recommend a Medic uber a Demo or Soldier instead.

Shotgun heavies are blessed by the gods. They always manage to get far more kills and stay alive way longer than anyone would reasonably expect them to.

Wish they removed the Uber removal when you stop ubering a teammate and uber another on the Kritzkrieg. Stock has it for a reason, because the stock Uber lingers, while Kritzkrieg's crit effect does not.

Two things: The Family Business is a straight upgrade. The only reason it's not OP AF is that only Heavy can wield it. The Backscratcher is similar (only Pyro can equip it) but also it's not the Powerjack.

Backscratcher isn't OP because if you have attentive Medics and/or aren't roaming away from your team it's very much worse off. You heal at, like, 1hp/sec. If you're like me and just like to fuck around behind enemy lines it's way better than other Pyro melees, but your Medics will absolutely hate you.

On that note, the Second Banana has been such a blessing, given that I don't have steam friends to pocket me as medic when I play heavy. Which I do a lot: he's my main. Which means I usually have to go on my own. And it's rare I'll be in a situation where I need the full sandwich, so having a significant health kit that recharges near instantly is fantastic for solo heavy.

Is it? It still retains the drawback that comes with Sandvich, that being a four second vulnerability during consumption. It doesn't change how Medic-less Heavy is played at all, as you're still beholden to team protection as you tow the defensive line. You'll be retreating to eat your daily dose of potassium more frequently than with Sandvich, and that's the only difference. Of course linear maps make this slightly less risky, but the point still stands.

I use the shotgun a lot as heavy because I bring Natascha/Brass Beast for the damage resist. This is usually when I'm defending areas, so when I'm moving from area to area the shotgun serves me just fine because revving up would get me killed. Plus, you can make snipers flinch with shotgun bullets at a huge distance, but not minigun bullets, so if there's snipers I usually take the shotgun so I don't get picked and don't have to use FoS or GRU which leaves me vulnerable if I run into a non-sniper enemy. Besides I generally don't have 4 seconds to eat and would rather camp a medkit instead, and since I tend to spycheck as Heavy I do actually run out of ammo sometimes. Also the shotgun is devastating with meatshots and I can aim well enough to take advantage of it; nothing better than shotgunning a cocky scout out of the air in two hits while I tank his meatshots since I can actually aim unlike most Heavy players.

If you're going to be dwelling near health kits, I would recommend the Dalokohs Bar instead, especially if you're toting a Natascha or Brass Beast. The only time I ever consider using a shotgun is against Huntsman Snipers that know what they're doing, because there really isn't much a Heavy can do against them.

Given that I'm good enough at heavy that I'm consistently at the top of the leaderboard in casual if I play as him, it's been very helpful, yes. It's not like I don't use normal healthkits either. There's just certain parts of certain maps where the best corner to hid in and catch people by surprise happens to be a significant distance away from a medkit. So I rely on the banana quite a bit in those situations. Most recently, I helped turn around defense on Mountain Lab by utilizing that strategy. First two points were goners real quick, but we managed to hold the last point until the end, in large part because I kept hiding in the southwest corner of the final point room and killing everyone who barged in from the west or the south. There was no medkit on that side of the room, nor any engineers (they were near spawn), so I made use of the banana repeatedly. None of the attackers i killed ever did enough damage that I couldn't heal to full health (or virtually full health).

I actually find it can really benefit heavy if he's playing without medic on defense. It pretty much makes Heavy enter every engagement with full HP. I abuse this a lot of maps like Badwater, I hold the room above last with Heavy Tomislav and mow down people who walk in and dont ever really need to relocate because of the uptime the uptime on the banana. Whats good about that spot is if the cart starts to get pushed underneath you, you can jump out the window and mow people down. Its definately Heavy's first worthy side grade to the sandvich.

It can be beneficial on certain maps in specific situations, but as I mentioned previously, it isn't the radical shift in the Heavy meta that people make it out to be. It doesn't do a good job enabling self-sufficiency, and at the end of the day, Heavy's still required to play passively in a defensive position, or ensconced within his team to help mitigate his many weaknesses. Were there not any Demos or Soldiers spamming you out in that southwest passage?

except that laying sticky traps and sitting in a corner would not get anything done, nor any class would if they were sitting passively in a corner expecting people to walk into their range. even snipers. the gameplay is always geared towards aggresive approachs and get things done up close.

What are you saying exactly? Stock Demoman cannot aggress without team support in the same way that Soldier and Scout can, and like Heavy, relies on his team to patch up his weaknesses. Stock Demoman has mobility, but it is costly and unreliable in the thick of battle for anything other than a risky bomb or clutch escape. The reason Demoman is used full-time in sixes comes down to the fact that an overheal makes quick rollouts with the class possible, while his arced indirect damage proves to be unique and invaluable. Because Demoman does not utilize hitscan weaponry, his impact on aerial denial isn't as severe, which is a major sticking point in the competitive community when it comes to allowing Heavy to mid. Competitive notwithstanding, Demoman is very similar to Heavy as a defensive class; the major divergence comes down to their toolkit, and Heavy's is limited and one-dimensional. Demoman does not have this problem, and his versatile cache of weaponry can be mixed and matches to create varied modes of play.

garry really dicked the forums up the ass when he removed the tf2 section and r/tf2 has wickedplayer494 as an admin, so that's a no

Brass Beast Heavy is... Surprisingly fun. Granted, it may not be as optimal as other miniarmas but with the right team and position it work wonders (or just a kritzkrieg to say fuck you to anything you can see). Plus. I'm glad my friend fixes his mic so now we can communicate and do crazy combos. I missed him.

"the right team" probably means you would've won regardless of what you personally did

I hate the Brass Beast, it has no practical utility beyond simply rage-switching to it if an enemy Heavy is giving you trouble and you want to "stick it" to him.

Eh, I can't deny it is fun. I wish it had increased rate of fire instead of damage per bullet.

Honestly the damage bonus of Brass beast feels so minimal and the defense bonus would've been good if it didnt require the user to be at half health on top of being a slower minigun I dont know why but I like it though, makes me feel like tank that can mow down anything except snipers

I think the funniest part about trimping as Demoknight is essentially just teleporting vaguely near people. I just trimped off a staircase on 2fort, flew around their spawn's ceiling for a second and instantly smashed down due to hitting a weird piece of geometry on the ceiling, dropped right in front of a Sniper, and shot a crit pill that killed him, me, and 2 other people also leaving spawn. I hate random crits, I hate 2fort, and I hate using the Tide Turner, but god damn the combination of the three is incredible

In MvM it actually works pretty well if you upgrade Heavy's movement speed, giving you the strafing abilities of the regular minigun coupled with the extra firepower of the brass beast. The inherent defence bonus also works a bit better coupled with a few of the buyable defence bonuses.