TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station V14 - The Bargaining Stage
999 replies, posted
Queued matchmaking is bad, yes.
This isn't far fetched either. Match making takes the community aspect out of the game and, in some cases is used to purposely frustrate players into buying things that may not appear outright "pay to win" but can improve their odds or even give them favorable matches down the line.
Believe it or not, Casual in TF2 has an MMR system! In the Match History tab you can see every single match you've ever played in the Match Maker. It gives you a relatively detailed account of what happened during the match, albeit in a somewhat inconvenient manner to decipher.
You can see things like, Match Duration, RED Team Final Score, BLU Team Final Score, Winning Team, Gamemode, Win Reason, "Result Score" or Your Score, Kills, Deaths, Damage, Healing, Support...
All of these are pretty cool to keep track of, but the MMR doesn't seem to care about anything BUT the team you were on, and the team's win/loss results. What makes it worse is the rate at which you gain in the Result Displayed Rating Change is far less than what you can earn. So what does this mean for every time you connect to a game that is already in progress, and has you losing within 30 seconds of joining?
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/315994/0d57d221-2fc4-45cf-bef5-b449d0a111c1/image.png
For the mere minute or so I was in, I scored 11 points, 7 kills, 3 deaths. As a result of my team losing, my Result Displayed Rating Change dropped a full -11.
Good stuff right? It doesn't help that the MMR is pretty difficult to climb, but what puts the icing on the cake is the default MMR for new players is relatively high, meaning even as they drop their MMR you'll still be playing with inexperienced players unless you've somehow miraculously held a 100% win rate in casual for several hundred matches to surpass the default mmr.
I don't exactly thing you can generalize some wacko conspiracy theories that have floated around when it comes to matchmakers.
And no, this was not entirely directed at TF2's MM. I already had this discussion with you and we already agreed to simply go our ways. I'm saying that from my personal experience every Casual mode, if it has Matchmaking or not, will always have players constantly leaving and appearing and teams being unbalanced. That is the very nature of a gamemode where players that leave are not punished and thus not encouraged to stay.
Just disable autobalance if its on the last cap/last minute of the game.
I don't give a shit if I get auto balanced during the second cap of badwater with 5 minutes on the clock, but I'm going to be upset if I get auto balanced with 20 seconds on the clock and the cart is like 8 feet from the final cap.
I think auto balance needs to be in the game, but there's a few changes I would like to see.
First I want Valve to get rid of the map vote and require a requeue after every match. Too many people leave after most games, often causing small team sizes in the next match because the matchmaker often can't find people fast enough unless it's a super popular map, causing more to leave and auto balancing to happen. Next eventually give out cool down penalties if people leave early. This is only for people who do it often, obviously I don't want to see people get cooldowns for leaving if there's a hacker. Finally switch back to the ask first auto balance system, that was the best auto balance system the game has ever had.
Blue Moon's take on autobalance was the best version imo.
Is it naive of me to think that Smissmas will be the Heavy update and that it will be themed around Siberia?
considering its never been acknowledged outside of "both classes will properly get it", yes
I mean if you are optimistic and believe that the TF Team is actively monitoring reddit and forums the like they would be insane not to do the heavy update given the entirety of the community, if memers or not, is anticipating it.
On the other hand, they also nerfed the bison.
To be fair, like Fluury said, they would be fairly foolish to skip out on in it when that's what the community is anticipating. What would they do instead? The Scout Update? Battle Royale?
redesign arena mode into battle royale
a boring smissmas as usual, what else?
Then a very large amount of people will be unhappy. To say the least
this is not how updates work.
It kind of is. They gauge community feedback over what features or balance changes they want to see implemented into future updates--that's how it's worked for a long time. Whether or not they've historically leveraged that feedback well, or listened to the right people, is up for debate.
What part of the patented design that has been officially registered is a "wacko conspiracy theory" that I just linked? Or maybe you didn't bother taking a look at it...?
Just because Activision does not utilize their own creation presently, this goes to show companies have more than likely been designing similar functionalities and we'd be less the wiser when it comes to knowing if its implemented or not. If a company the size of EA is willing to put PAY TO WIN elements in loot boxes and somehow believe this approach to a monetary system is completely justified from the get-go, how is it you're still able to perpetuate the lie in your head that companies are NOT against using these underhanded tactics?
Warthunder is a pretty good example of a system designed (by region) to encourage players to spend money on Golden Eagles and other RL$toIGC. A sizable portion of the playerbase know WHY Gaijin does it, they ACCEPT the fact that it exists, and will sometimes even DEFEND it with their largest argument being "The company has to make money somehow!" Which I totally agree! A company needs to make money somehow but I DISAGREE with the methods being used to get it.
Read Below:
There are a few obvious and frequent scenarios that helped the old auto-balance system do what it needed to do BEFORE the Match Maker was implemented that consequently prevents any of these from happening.
Scenarios:
1. Player A connects to the server and joins Team BLU, his friend(s) is/are on Team RED. Several players disconnect from Team RED. Player A notices this and immediately switches to Team RED to play with his friends.
This is possible because: There is a delay in the Autobalance and it warns users a sizeable time ahead of when it will automatically change a player's team, and the player can change teams on their own!
2. Player B is concerned about having fun more than winning and will voluntarily switch them-self to a team with less players WELL BEFORE the auto-balance kicks in.
While you might think this is a rare occurrence, preventing people from having this option is a retarded idea, and the time it takes the auto-balance to kick in is rather important. If it kicks in too quick, it can upset people. If it kicks in too late it will ruin the balance of the match and... upset people. So adding a lull in the time that isn't too long while also allowing players to self-volunteer is the way to go.
3. Teams can ask for assistance from the other if player counts are low. Sometimes asking is enough!
Again, you might think this wasn't effective but the room for human interaction was far better than waiting for an auto-mated system to force someone into it. I'd rather have a chance that someone switches early than wait for a delayed auto-balance.
4. NO MMR in the Quick Play system/Ad Hoc Connections
MMR will ACTIVELY prevent you from being placed in certain servers for a duration of time. But what if that server needed players to re-fill a team that just left? A server listing, or Quick Play system that ignores ELO is much faster at filling the gaps.
5. Vote Scramble would often give players a reason to continue playing on the server.
Far from flawless vote but why wasn't it further expanded on with development? I'm certain if done properly it could help to curb imbalances. It gets tricky when you implement a Party System that can support up to 6 friends in one group, but theoretically, 2 6 man parties on either team can still be scrambled.
I definitely recall suggesting we can agree to disagree, but I don't remember saying I wouldn't counter anything you said in the future. Unless of course you'd like me to refrain from discussing the current subject matter.
oh boy
I'll give you a "fair enough" for the first one, but;
Just like in our previous argument, I disagree with the general sentiment that back when players could choose servers and connect directly, there was "consistent player flow". I cannot whip out a fancy graph and Im pretty sure no one can here, but the same problem Casual is having right now (On occasion, players leave at a higher rate than they join) was very much a thing in Quickplay, and I'd argue it wasn't any better than in Casual. MMR in current quickplay from what I have seen is more of a broad player-check but we all know it isn't exactly doing it's job right now. The other points are valid.
I'm not here to protect autobalance and that wasn't exactly my point? My initial statement was that you can't blame "core matchmaking" for the issue that is "quickplay mode has people leaving a lot" given even in games that have competent matchmaking, that is a thing, and it will always be a thing. That's why competitive mode exists in those games. Unless you punish people, they will leave because they are bored or whatever.
Tinker with autobalance as much as you like; My personal position is that Casual atm works *kinda* but they have to make the decision to go either full casual clown mode with spectator, team switching etc. or go back to the age of "competitive lite".
Quickplay? Who said anything about Quickplay? The server browser is where it's at
individual weapon tweaks aren't major updates.
overly dramatic sigh to indicate I'd rather shove spoons in my eyes than type a response, but I'll do it anyways while expressing my discomfort ... is how this works right?
Right. I don't have access to fancy graphs either. BUT I can talk about things that lead me to believe the traffic flowed much better during the Server Browser/SB + Quickplay era than it is and has been during the Match Maker era. All I've really understood what your claim is about is that you've witnessed this without any reasonable explanation as to why it might be.
Slap another bad reading on that "oh boy" cause the Auto-balance debacle is precisely what I'm using to argue that the problem with the turn-over rate has a lot to do with: 1. How the match maker prevents certain scenarios that would otherwise keep players happy, and 2. How auto-balance plays a big roll in what leads people to a fit of rage. If it wasn't clear enough, I discussed factors other than "auto-balance"... Like MMR, Quickplay, Ad Hoc/Server Browser, Vote Scramble, Spectator, Team Switching, A Company's desire for money and the lengths they'd go to...
What is the reasonable explanation supposed to be other than the obvious? My quickplay experience has been that servers were constantly floating at like 16 players and rarely got full; When joining a full server, it would often dwindle down back to 14 or so and never go any higher. Now I'll give you the fact that actual server deaths were pretty rare, but those low underpopulated servers are not something new. That's my point, and that's why I have trouble understanding you seeing Quickplay as the be all end all savior of this issue. The "explanation" for this issue is what I've typed 2 times so far, being that it's casual play, and people aren't penalized for leaving.
Other than that; What... is your point? Auto balance plays a role in why people leave servers, yes, and? I am not arguing against changing autobalance..?
I do agree that the most ideal people to move would be the people who were the newest to the server for sure. They invested the least amount of time. It's not like they're picking the most contributing players, but also not picking guaranteed people who are dead weight.
I believe they actually made changes before Quickplay was axed though to keep people from freely swapping back to their original teams and spectator to some extent. Mostly because people were just swapping back to their team, swapping back to spectator till a spot opened up, or they'd just jump to the winning team because they didn't want to have to deal with the loser teams. There were actual legitimate complaints which lead to it being changed and eventually axed out altogether.
I'm starting to feel that this is a problem with matchmaking period. I can't recall a single game that had a matchmaking system in it that wasn't plagued by people abandoning on a whim. Probably because your thrown into a different enviroment everytime with a bunch of different people, so the experence is going to be different every time.
If you compare it to a community server, you'll generally shift around on those till you find one or a handful that you enjoy playing on. You'll probably favorite them and visite them frequently. As other people jump in they might do the same. So in a sense, you'll probably frequently run into the same people you'd enjoy playing with on a regular basis. This time of a gaming enviroment cannot be provided by a matchmaking service per say.
What's the best email address for contacting the TF2 devs about ideas/change suggestions we have?
Yes, I realize the chances for any I have are slim to none, but I felt like making a go at it.
This is how TF2 was meant to be played
https://youtu.be/4C5nZ_UeuWI
Okay so whats wrong with coming up with a justification that presents more than just "My quickplay experience has been..." as a point in your claims? I'm afraid your point of view can't be surmised in a single sentence or two and that should be relatively obvious considering (according to the forums anyways) you live in Germany. Player counts are different by server/country, of course we are going to see a disparity when it comes to the amount of players, but once again you've contradicted yourself:
"servers were constantly floating at like 16 players and rarely got full"
You've somehow gone from talking about sporadic changes to the player counts in servers, to arguing that although the server isn't full it "constantly" sits at a "average number" that you have observed. Are we talking about the lack of full servers? Is that what you like so much about the Match Maker? Dead servers happen in Match Making just as well! There are times where the server will refuse to add new players and it will fizzle out to whoever remains connected.
Take for instance this Powerhouse that never found more players. The match ended, and I was the last one left in that server.
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/315994/e6552307-b7c1-48fd-b00a-1beb8c12ad86/20180702013921_1.jpg
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/315994/ba5c0aae-4f87-4e03-800a-c8d97ba7c35f/20180702014223_1.jpg
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/315994/98b7c797-49fa-416a-94e1-60514be0ae96/20180702014404_1.jpg
This "average of 16" player count or "near death" server stuff isn't exempt from the Match Maker experience and is often caused the Match Maker's own inability to keep re-adding queued players, whereas in a Ad-Hoc possible scenario, a lack of players is due to hour of day, or lack of playerbase.
I have trouble understanding you seeing Quickplay as the be all end all savior of this issue.
I have absolutely no idea how you have come to conclude that I believe Quickplay is an acceptable form of introducing and shuffling players into servers. I've always argued that Quickplay, and now Match Making are some of the largest factors in the decline of the TF2 community. Quickplay has more freedom than the Match Maker, but it still removes the community aspect of things as it had by default matched new players into Official Valve Servers and not community servers.
I'm simply saying that unless you penalize people for leaving, they will leave.
The few points you present are of a very narrow minded, one track mindset. Why does it have to be "Penalize people"? Did you think maybe if we improve the in-game experience and give players a reason to stay it could help prevent empty servers? I'm not as simple minded to think there is one correct solution so I actively seek all possibilities before I make a claim about something. Yes, penalizing people for leaving could change things, but it was already a thing before, and what does penalizing those who leave anyways do? It ensures they cannot reconnect, further dwindling the pool of players in the queue.
I've been frequently told that my own personal experiences, no matter how many games I've sat through, have no justifiable say when it comes to making relatively large reaching claims. I'd be smacked upside my head for uttering something like
What is the reasonable explanation supposed to be other than the obvious?
and quickly labeled an "elitist" without providing a reasonable explanation (justifications) alongside my personal experiences.
I honestly can't make my point any more clear. If anyone else is confused by what I've been laying out in detail, then by all means call me a "stupid dumb idiot."
aren't we all glad the shortcircuit is accessible to bad players to its fullest potential now
is this the price to pay when a weapon is too skill based? we make it brain dead?
What's "wrong" with that? Nothing, it's just that there isn't more to it. There aren't any facts to this, it's just all personal experiences which is what makes discussing this topic so difficult. Sorry if the "it's obvious" came off as snarky, that wasn't the intent. It's mostly that it quite literally is just "I have experienced otherwise.".
...And have you read what I said? I specifically mentioned that the Matchmaker is more prone to causing "dead servers" - just that atleast I have experienced more servers which were at a constant full rather than a constant dead. "Lack of players" in quickplay is very much not just because of hour of day..? There were a bunch of times where atleast I played Quickplay at prime time on upward and the server just fizzled down to 6 people and no one would join - because if you are searching for an upward server, would you rather join the 18/24 one or the 6/24 one?
And once again, let me repeat myself; It doesn't matter if you offer people the best time of their lives. They will leave for a variety of reasons unless you penalize them. By the way, I have never mentioned that I personally believe penalties are what we need to introduce to Casual; I just view this as the only "solution" there is, and it's a shitty one.
The issue you are trying to fix is the very core of a "Casual"/"Quickplay" mode of a multiplayer shooter - every single mutliplayer shooter has this issue, and you will not be able to fix it. Hell some might even argue if this is even an "issue" at all and not just part of the mode.
Have I made myself clear or are there any other questions left? I'd love to see a multiplayer game have a quickplay/casual mode that doesn't end up with "dead" servers or declining ones. Even Overwatch, which I'd personally argue has the best Quickplay system available on the market struggles and has servers often get into the "leaver's loop" where some guy leaves because who knows why, the team lacks a 6th guy for 5 seconds and then gets instantly replaced which is amazing, however the dude sees he is mid-game, the team is losing, so he leaves aswell. Etc. Even with Blizzard actively trying to make people stay by giving them rewards in form of XP or whatever, they won't stay.
I yet to encounter a game which produce unfun and unbalanced matches as consistently as current tf2 matchmaking.
It's fine when people disconnect randomly since it won't produce consistent disbalance. It's not fine when half of the losing team consistently leave after 5 minutes because match isn't fun for them.
Just a random example. I launched tf2 today. Joined a casual server just to witness our last 2 points being rolled in 2 minutes. Once we were on BLU we failed to give any fight at all. I highly doubt it was fun for anyone in my team. I can't blame people for leaving in this scenario.
Back when I actively played casual after Blue Moon I left like 30% of the matches before the end.
The Classic is pretty fun once you get used to the terrible movement speed and charge time since watching my shots turning enemies into meaty chunks is satisfying and it makes me feel like im actually good at sniping, but it would be pretty neat if i could shoot while jumping
What ever happened to TF2Classic?
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