TF2 General Chat & Speculation Station V15 - Buff Pyro plz
999 replies, posted
TF2 is fun
Try taunting on it, seems to make it work for me (also helps if other people try to push you off).
Isn't that because you need to be still and teammates can push each other? Pretty sure that's why crouching and taunting work in those situations.
This isn't directly related to TF2, but it offer some hope:
Valve banhammer strikes record number of players after CS
26,000+ VAC bans on Dec 26: https://steamdb.info/stats/bans/
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/6/6b/Sniper_specialweapon08.wav
flamethrowers are unfixable as long as its this tf2team handling the game.
and dragon's fury was his only chance to stand up to soldier/demo and it got killed off after a meager 2 months.
I guess it'll stay a stupid suicide pick class for another 11 years.
No it doesn't. The only reason record numbers of people are being banned on CS:GO now is because it went F2P, so now it has the same issue with hackers using burner accounts as TF2.
Maybe that valve has 3 free to play games that share a similiar issue they can be arsed to do something.
Seem I think valve really did greatly improve how pyro feels to play, the flames feel great now, but as I had expected they really couldn't find a concrete role for him to fill. So he's fun enough to play around with in pubs now but he doesn't have any real role outside of that. This is why I voted heavy, pyro's kind of a lost cause imo.
I like to think of Pyro as the jack of all trades, which I don't know if that is a good thing anymore.
From a personal standpoint I love supportive tools for every class, Heavy tossing sandwiches, Soldier with buffs, Scout with Fan O'War, etc.
But all Pyro really has is removing afterburn, like woohoo you did something a healthpack, a medic or a dispenser can do.
And removing sappers instantly (which I still think is seriously damaging toward Spy players)
Gas Passer I thought was going to be Pyro's supportive weapon. Providing area-denial so teammates have a breather or to take advantage. But no, it just flat out blows.
Afterburn just isn't enough of a deterrent for one time area-denial since it can so easily be extinguished.
And to top it all off it just isn't that good of weapon when literally anything is better than it, just use scorch shot if you wanna apply afterburn to a group of people at once.
Originally I had an idea for a supportive flare gun that would detonate and float in the air, teammates near its warm glow would recieve a buff.
Whilst enemies within its glow would recieve an ailment of some kind, like being highlighted for the enemy to see. Something like that.
I'm not sure how well that'd work ingame, but the point of the weapon is to entirely remove secondary damage for something that benefits not yourself, but your team.
well its false.
giving him gimmicks also won't solve problems.
https://i.imgur.com/kssCbhG.png
I said this in the beginning once JI’s changes were revealed and got blasted by pyro mains, but it still rings true:
Pyro cannot (and was not meant to) be fixed by gimmicks or band aid unlocks, which is what JI was. It needs a complete overhaul on purpose and mechanics.
JI failed to revitalize pyro because it is still the no-range low damage Uberstall reflect monkey it always has been since axtingreaser was nerfed. That was the only viable way to play the class, and instead of adding diversity, they nerfed the class into uselessness like the clueless developers they are.
Here’s what needs to happen to stock pyro:
The Fire Sale Update
(prod. By Kaiga)
-Flamethrowers changed to have multiple firing modes
-Mouse 1 is now a short range lightning gun-esque stream of flame that ramps up afterburn time and damage with continual accurate hitting
-Mouse 2 is now a lobbed ranged fireball projectile that explodes in a blast radius on successful hits against human targets. Shares it’s cool down with airblast.
-Special attack fires a cone of air for 35 primary ammo that doesn’t consume ammo upon extinguishing teammates, turns away projectiles and pushes back players based with force scaling to their remaining health.
-Added a 4th weapon slot for pyro, where Gear can be equipped
-The gas passer and Thermal Thruster have been changed to be Gear items with the gas passer as the stock variant.
And that’s pretty much it, I’ll take my giant cardboard check now, Eric.
Clearly pyro just needs more critical hit gimmicks.
Knockback scaling on their hp would be awful for two reasons:
Inconsistency which no one is a fan of
Pyro stands close to a cliff and sees a Demo walking past - TF2 has no visual feedback as to if a person is highly damaged or not - how is the pyro expected to know if they'll be able to knock them down or not? I sure hope you don't expect people to look at if the class is frowning or not.
besides, why did you decide for knockback to scale on hp in the first place?
airblast is already "inconsistent" with the rest of the game pushes, so why would it matter?
That's really not what we're talking about at all. If airblast force scaled with health it would be inconsistent between encounters, not just between damage types. So a pyro has no idea how much push force an airblast is going to do when they blast somebody.
Hot Take(?): Stock Pyro got nerfed by Jungle Inferno. His DPS got buffed but it still didn't match the TTK of the three Power Classes and then Blue Moon came around and crippled it with its "it takes one second of perfect tracking to start dealing full damage". Also, by making Airblast not be the obnoxious stun mechanic it was, killing Scouts became harder than ever. As a result, Pyro still struggles to keep up with any other Combat Class, without having enough support tools to consider him a support Class.
Pyro doesn't need his mechanics to be completely changed, he needs a team that can change him while keeping three different goals in mind:
Weaker in lower levels of skill - Raise skill floor, rework the Phlog
Significantly stronger in higher levels of skill - Raw numerical buffs, Flamethrowers should act like Primaries not Secondaries, defined core identity, buffs and reworks to almost every unlock
Less obnoxious to fight against - Smaller particles, airblast pushback falloff, stronger inherent counterplay
But these demand manpower and understanding, neither of which our TF Team is known for.
If anyone wants my poorly worded 5cents on how to push Pyro towards these goals, I've linked my extensive and poorly worded thoughts here.
Yeah, I always enjoy going pyro when my team doesn't have one and we're currently facing a plague of enemy spies.
i think pyro's focus should be on crowd punishing and area denial. i think the gas passer should minicrit players on fire while in it, maybe more penalties too, last longer even; flamethrower beam should be very narrow, maybe add reverse fall off. Make it very tracking centered aiming, but with minor leading.
add or change traits of the afterburn, make it so that being near another player who's on fire catch them on fire to encourage dispersing the enemy team or something.
I think a lot of the things we are mentioning tho, not sure how it all plays in 6s.
tbh he's not even that dominating in this role anymore. with afterburn not inflicting maximum duration with single puffs, cloacked spies removing debuffs 20% faster and other classes getting access to spy check and/or tracking utilities -through jars and bleed mostly-, Pyro has had its once defining trait weakened
I would be all for the idea of a longer-range narrow flamethrower focused more on applying fire than damage, if it weren't for the fact that Medic healing outright counters any type of DoT in any situation. I feel like, if you really wanna go the debuff direction, then the more accurate flamethrower design of a long, narrow fire dispenser, that deals low damage upfront but with a much longer-lasting afterburn would be the way to go, even if it's a radical gameplay change compared to current Pyro.
If we're just throwing shit at a wall, my first conceptual rework would be something like -
flamethrower now has the range of 2fort's bridge, but a much tighter flame particle cone, about half the radius of the current cone, if not even smaller. Upfront damage would be pitiful, something like the current far range damage of ~7.9/sec but for the entire cone. Current afterburn duration would be doubled (from 3-10 secs to 6-20 secs), but tic damage would be halved (40 damage/10 sec instead of 80) and the flinching effect would be diminished somewhat. Spies would no longer be visibly set on fire when disguised and hit by a pyro's flames - instead, they'd play the "fire!" alert voiceline and would take very slightly reduced damage. This is to try and diminish the effectiveness of Spy-checking by just swinging around wildly whenever you're aware of a Spy on the enemy team.
Pyro has the weird mechanic of reducing healing and resistances on people set ablaze. If we designed a Pyro -or just a Primary option- focused on support, and made an unextinguishable Afterburn it could have some applications.
Also if I'm not mistaken, the reduced healing is coded wrong and instead of -20% it's *20%, so -80% healing. Maybe that's been fixed though.
I was reading the wiki when I planned out my hypothetical rework, and I tried to factor that in. I considered removing the healing debuff entirely, but if a Medic just has to heal his teammates for the fire to be irrelevant, Pyro would still be just as useless. If it is bugged, i think fixing the coding and making it -20% healing would be fine.
I actually like the idea of Pyro tampering with Medic's healing. Via that and the reflects Pyro could be a decent counterpick to 3 of the 4 meta staples. But with Pyro being so undertuned and Scout being not only overtuned, but a massive counter to Pyro as well, this is just a dream.
But what a dream it could be, one Pyro so strong and meta defining, that it would necessitate the enemy team to counterpick into Engy, Heavy, Sniper, or switch to specific loadouts.
Reminds me of this suggestion someone made a few years ago over on reddit. I don't have any experience in competitive play so I don't really know how viable these changes would be, but it's still interesting to think about, even if a few of the proposed parallels do seem like a bit of a stretch.
Man I'd love it if the Heavy got an unlock that's just him dual wielding shotguns.
That's a very interesting post. It also leads to this gem
As someone who mains pyro i really don't know how he can be buffed or reworked out of the terrible state you people seem to be. on the other hand, i really don't play competititve, just pubs.
maybe just buff the damage of the fire particles the closer you are to your enemies and the closer they are to your crosshair, to genuinely reward acurate tracking like the other class that is forced to do so(heavy)
That reminds me of another place...
https://i.imgur.com/aQGqz8Q.png
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TF2 General Chat & Speculation Station V15 - Buff Pyro plz
