Super Smash Bros. General v24: Joker Waiting Room, Please Take A Number - Games

But the question is, is this an absolute accident like wavedashing? Or is this something that ended up in the game that they consciously let exist? Mechanics can end up in games by accident, but the difference with stuff like wavedashing is that Sakurai literally came out and said "I didn't know you could do this and I'd go back and fix it if I could because that's not how I intended the game to be played" after the fact. That's moreso what I'm arguing, that wavedashing is less a feature and more a mistake on the part of the devs that the community really latched onto.

Wavedashing wasn't an accident. Even if it was, I can guarantee you that yes, it is an absolute accident. It makes no sense for the input system to work in such a way that you can immediately use a back attack without any turning only through a timed press of buttons, as well as to be able to halt all forward momentum and execute a neutral air while dashing, by changing what attack is on the stick.

Wavedashing absolutely is an accident. They were aware it existed during testing, but they definitely didn't go in making air dodges thinking "this needs to happen when they land from an air dodge." It's a physics exploit and not a glitch, but it was surely accidental.

Wavedashing is literally just emergent gameplay; the use of simple mechanics in complex ways (ie airdodging, attacking and the ground). No, the devs did not necessarily intend for these mechanics to be used in this way; but they allowed these mechanics to have wider uses than what they envisioned. And those mechanics fit in well with Melee's overall sense of speed and freeflowing gameplay. Do you also think rocketjumping in Doom is cheating, or combos in the original Street Fighter? Do you think they should've been removed, despite fitting in well with the highspeed FPS gameplay of Doom or the competitive nature of Street Fighter? Sakurai has said wavedashing was not planned, but he has also said that Melee was intentionally a faster game; it just so happens that the unintentional "jank" fits in very well with the intentional designs. What I'm saying is it isn't valuable to only care about developer intent. Developer intent was never for Bayonetta to be the strongest character in Smash 4 to the point of trivializing everything else. Developers intend for a lot of things and sometimes they even work out the way they intended. But those things aren't better than what players end up doing soley by virtue of the devs coming up with them. These games have option menus for a reason.

Wavedashing is not emergent gameplay. There's no reason you should be able to airdodge during your jumpsquat, before leaving the ground. Airdodging right after jumping is called a triangle jump and that's something else. Wavedashing is being able to airdodge before jumping and that was not intended behavior.

One part of what was in my deleted post was comparing the resistance to moving on from Melee with the resistance of moving on from Windows XP. The circumstance was almost exactly the same - the 2001 installment getting superseded with the 2007/8 installment after enjoying an unprecedentedly long lifespan, and a lot of folks fuming over it. No Windows version prior to XP had been the flagship for more than three years (similar to only SSB64 existing before Melee and only holding the spotlight for two years), and people had a lot of time to get nice and cozy and complacent with it to the point that it became an unconscious expectation that this would be the status quo forever, save for some sort of "Windows XP 2.0". Let alone Vista, many users weren't even willing to move to Win7 at first. Before the "Windows Cycle" meme, there was the "Windows peaked with XP" meme. Much talk in the 2000s even during early Win7 was "well, Windows is different from XP sucks now, guess we'll have to migrate elsewhere." Especially with Apple's big popularity climb in the 2000s and Linux users... acting like how they normally do, to be honest, there was a lot of smug preening about how the era of Windows was over and that a mass exodus was to take place to competing OSes because Windows was no longer good after XP. We even saw the same "what the next one should have been" modding with people combing through the Windows Longhorn development archives and distributing packages of old beta features and styling (which I actually dig, since it's preservation of an actual product that never saw the light of day and not just some circlejerk). But to not dwell too long on Windows, this isn't even necessarily something rooted in Smash itself. I noticed even at the time that there was a lot of resistance in moving from the early-2000s paradigm to the late-2000s one with tech and gaming in general. "Smash will always be Melee, Windows will always be XP, PS3 will be the de-facto singular console just like the PS2 was, the internet is for chat rooms and phpBB and this social media thing is a passing fad for high-schoolers, my sprite comic forum mod status will make me a CEO later in life". Even today I still see a lot of "well things were just better in my doom room days!" sentiment from "the old guard". Hell, the whole ironic "gamers rise up" meme wouldn't exist if there hadn't been a genuine, years-long undercurrent of resentment from people who hate how tech and gaming became cool for normies and casuals in the late 2000s when it should have remained - and I'm using a verbatim term from someone who was spouting such stuff at me recently - "our one respite".

You managed to use too many words to say nothing at all.

I'm not sure if attack cancelling is an unintentional addition, considering that different attacks have different frame windows as if coded by intention (jabs/tilts can be cancelled within the first 2 startup frames, smash attacks within the first 3)

I'd say changing their username to VinBRAWLiA would do the trick.

I don't personally enjoy playing Melee but I totally respect the game and its legacy, and I recognize what it does better than later titles. Ultimate is more fun for me to play, but Melee is definitely different and more important.

More important I disagree with. Ultimate is the first time we have every character ever, and some of the most requested characters (K Rool and Ridley.) As said by Reggie, it's the biggest video game crossover ever. That eclipses the other smash games in terms of importance, especially since this won't happen again.

What even would be the next direction for a Smash game? One that cuts the roster down significantly but focuses on making the gameplay extremely tight and technical with some new system, like stances or attack weights? One that somehow expands the roster even further at the expense of all singleplayer activities? It feels like something's got to give, they've reached the point where the balloon can't grow any more without popping.

I think Ultimate will be the last Smash, and they'll just update it for years, games-as-a-service style.

If the roster gets reduced heavily, then I'd like to see moveset reboots and a cartoon stylization. I'd rather have a port or new DLC waves though from a dream crossover perspective. Just give me Isaac (GS), a Rhytyhm Heaven rep (Wrestler/Karate Joe/Marshall/etc), Banjo-Kazooie and a retro rep like Mach Rider and maybe a LoZ rep like Skull Kid or non-Sakurai Kirby rep like Bandana Waddle Dee and then have your way with the character purge that follows afterward because then I'd at least have one game where all of my popular favorites are present.

What exactly makes you think something's got to give? Game development isn't a balloon, it's not going to suddenly burst. Pokemon has been going strong for 20 years, with way more games pumped out, at least one new generation on every portable system and at least one new side game on every main console, and it just recently announced what might be the most hyped up generation yet due to being on the Switch. There's literally no feasible reason why they couldn't release another new Smash game with the same characters, same everything, just adding and improving, should a console that usurps Switch come. That's the beauty of game development. Almost every single model you see in the game from a character that was in Sm4sh was re-used. Most animations were re-used. The entire Sm4sh engine was re-used if I understand what Sakurai has talked about in terms of development correctly. There are still many flaws that could very likely require an entire new game to be fixed. The input delay is awful. There are still flawed mechanics. World of Light is a glorified event mode and Spirits are jpegs uploaded to imgur compared to the trophies of previous games and SSE. New characters is always a possibility.

Incorrect, Ultimate's engine is new. The renderer in particular is fundamentally different on an architectural level.

The rendering engine may be new, but I'd hazard to guess that there are probably a lot of things that aren't. Wasn't Ultimate quickly cracked due to a similar file formatting? They couldn't even be bothered to reorganize the music theme names. That being said, internally, Ultimate seems like a bigger leap from Smash 4 than Smash 4 was from Brawl, despite Ultimate reusing way more assets from it's predecessor.

A+. You sure showed me.

https://twitter.com/dril/status/134787490526658561 Maybe it's time to realise that you never had the maturity high ground to begin with.

Well, if he were to put some actual effort into his retorts for once, I'd actually be impressed.

bowser in smash ultimate https://i.imgur.com/HySqoEi.gif

I'll have a place in my heart for Bowser's Melee fire hovercar animation.

I thought he had that in every game before Smash 4, since that was when he got the new running dash.

I will say, fighting a heavy who attacks slowly, but can change their position alarmingly fast, is pretty scary Calm counterplay punctuated by huge bursts of movement

I can hardly return what you give 😘

Next OP should include some notable Smash mods somewhere like Project M and 20XXTE.

Smash Bros General v25 - 🦀 MELEE IS DEAD 🦀

Smash Bros General v25 - One More Thread, One Less Game at EVO

I used to keep a PM segment along with the Brawl segment in the old OPs but someone just kinda ended up removing it I'll make the next OP, gonna go with @FlandersNed 's thread title idea

When I redid the OP, I meant to include a fan games section for stuff like that and Super Smash Flash, I just didn't get to it in time...