TF2 General Chat & Speculation Station V17 - Ms. Pauling Won't Stop Calling Me - Games

Jungle Inferno was released the 28th of October 2017. I began working on my thesis the 26th of march 2018. Now, one year later, I finished it. It took less time to write an entire thesis about X topic than a new update for TF2. At this rate, I'm going to finish uni before we get the Heavy Update. What about y'all? Over 450 days, I'm sure we all made improvements over this waiting period. Share em!

not sure why so many users try to make a point out of "i see bad players". it's really not relevant. excellent spies exist and they're not that uncommon.

L'Etranger / Ley-Trawn-zhey (Zh Example: the "sure" of "pleasure") = The Stranger Claidheamh Mòr / Clee-Av-More = Claymore

'Relevant' is a pretty weird word to use there, buckaroo. This ain't some Flat Earth conspiracy, it was simply being pointed out, from my own experiences, that I see decent Spies less frequently than I see a decent Sniper, or Pyro, or Demo. Congratulations on rebutting an argument that nobody made.

it's not spies getting worse, it's other players getting better. drop your common pub spy into launch tf2 and (unless they're one of those spies that need the DR to survive) they would do massively better just because there aren't any players who know spy's "tells" yet. there are now enough people playing TF2 who have been doing so for a decent amount of time that the average level of spy awareness is higher than it used to be.

I'd consider that a problem in of itself, for lack of a better term. There are elements of player knowledge adapting to deal with every class (Oh, there's probably going to be an Engineer turtling a Sentry Gun there, because there always is!), but I feel like it applies more to Spy. Every class relies on the behaviour of other players, because, you know, that's how the game works, but it reaches an obnoxious level for Spy when a large portion of their success is taken out of their hands - a player can randomly turn around at the worst time, for example. To that you might argue 'Oh, just make a move just after they've checked', but even then there's no guarantee that there'll be consistency to how often someone spychecks, or just so happens to tilt their model ever so slightly etc. There's always been an element of 'high risk, high reward' to Spy, but I wonder whether the adapting of other players has led to, partially, elements of risk being replaced by luck. Or maybe I'm just absolute dogshit; that too is a strong possibility.

you can be the best player on the planet, you can't look in 2 opposite directions at once. you go for the players that are fighting your team, not the ones that have literally nothing else to do than turn around and counter you.

nah, you're pretty on the mark here. this has always been the biggest problem with the spy class: when your biggest counter is awareness, you're going to become dramatically less effective as time goes on. it's why spy has such a tough time in competitive- everyone is communicating with each other in a way that simply doesn't happen in pubs, and any mistake the spy makes is instantly amplified. it's difficult to solve this problem, since spy is fundamentally a stealth class. buff his speed and damage too much and suddenly you have an invisible scout, which would be an utter nightmare. me personally, I'm in favor of reworking certain spy weapons (YER and RTR because they're useless, Diamondback because it's busted) into things that expand Spy's utility. I've talked a lot in this thread about Sapper replacements that do...well, non-Sapper things, like dropping fake health kits or gathering intel. you know...sabotage! spy stuff! people would eventually start adapting to these new tricks too, of course- but spy having more variety gives him more room to surprise enemies in ways they don't expect. you can't juggle everything a spy could possibly be doing and all the other things happening in game at once- whether you realize it or not, there's always something in the game that you aren't thinking about right now, and spy flourishes when that's him

Unless your decloak noise bugs and plays twice over, causing it to be twice as loud as well, meaning anybody within a 5 mile radius now knows you exist. I really hope this is just a clientside issue, but I would not be surprised in the slightest if it happens server-wide - Spy decloak noises bugging and being twice as loud because they play twice.

never heard about this bug. You have any documentation about it?

Hol' up. Is this why decloaking sometimes blares in my ears for no apparent reason? I always thought it was an issue caused by lag; that's typically when it happens to me.

well, i recall you could with exor's setup.

The sapper exists as a replacement for Grenades. Spy without grenades was incapable of doing anything if a sentry was around. Since throwing a grenade didn't drop disguise, the standard anti-engineer play was to lob some grenades as his building and be done with it. The sapper was devised as a way for Spy to actually get things done when Engineers are afoot because a Spy without the ability to do Spy things is about as frustrating as an Engineer without a dispenser or teleporter. Face the music, Spy will never get a sapper variant that specifically designed to disable buildings while he's stabbing things.

I'd have to actually record a bit of my gameplay to get documentation, but very rarely (maybe once a match) if I'm playing Spy the sound will play twice - you can hear it much louder and a slight 'echo' as the two decloaks play over eachother. Like I said, it might just be a clientside/HUD thing, which wouldn't be surprising (there's another huge bug right now because I play with ToonHUD on, with mouse3 set to turning viewmodels on or off and with transparent viewmodels).

I don't believe this would play twice for others to hear. If it does happen it should be purely clientside and just for your perspective only

No other class in the game is stuck with a weapon that exists specifically to deal with another class, and becomes completely useless when that class isn't in play. I'm not saying the Sapper doesn't have value- it does, I like it- but if a whole fourth of Spy's kit is rendered completely useless without a Sentry in play, isn't that a bit of a problem? It's not like Sapper is the only sentry counter, or even the best one, either... I know why the Sapper exists and why things are the way they are, but that doesn't mean they should stay this way. Don't know why you're telling me to "face the music" and getting confrontational about it, dude.

you want a better spy bug? there's a slight chance the resistance uber icon will get stuck on top of a enemy spy, even after he dies, and will still show if he's disguised or invisible.

perhaps it's time you see the sapper as a bonus rather than a full fledged loadout slot? the way the sapper has no cooldown, doesn't even animate and can be placed infinitely at no interval just proves it wasn't meant to do anything other than its one purpose and is obviously designed to never suck at it. spy got 4 things to use for all-around play, doesn't he?

Here's the rub. If you replace it with something that explicitly does not disable buildings you wind up creating situations where a Spy finds himself useless not because he made the enemy team paranoid to the point of mass pyro or even because he's getting outplayed, but because he made a mistake at loadout selection and has to forfeit his life so he can return to spawn and equip something useful. The sapper is designed to be situational but always available for when that situation inevitably comes up -- only because sentries have better attention spans than humans do (without the object permanence). If you remove that, you wind up defeating the express purpose of the sapper even existing. If you want non-sapper things, you're explicitly asking to be put into situations where you are throwing a life away for 1 kill at best. Sure those kills still wind up happening even with a sapper because sometimes nabbing their medic is just that much more valuable and he's right there. But the sapper allows you the option of picking how you proceed, safely but more time consuming or taking a dive. Sapper isn't going anywhere no matter how much you want a non-sapper in that slot. You can make a case for other weapons giving you tools or even a case for having more slots to equip things into, but the sapper as a concept won't be leaving Spy unless the replacement itself is an answer to sentries.

Here's the rub. If you replace it with something that explicitly does not disable buildings you wind up creating situations where a Spy finds himself useless not because he made the enemy team paranoid to the point of mass pyro or even because he's getting outplayed, but because he made a mistake at loadout selection and has to forfeit his life so he can return to spawn and equip something useful. This is already the case. If an Engineer is not on the field, the Sapper is a waste of a loadout slot. This wouldn't be a new problem created by adding a new option to replace the Sapper. If you want non-sapper things, you're explicitly asking to be put into situations where you are throwing a life away for 1 kill at best. Again, already the case for the Spy class. If you want non-sapper things, you're explicitly asking to be put into situations where you are throwing a life away for 1 kill at best. Sure those kills still wind up happening even with a sapper because sometimes nabbing their medic is just that much more valuable and he's right there. But the sapper allows you the option of picking how you proceed, safely but more time consuming or taking a dive. Sapper isn't going anywhere no matter how much you want a non-sapper in that slot. You can make a case for other weapons giving you tools or even a case for having more slots to equip things into, but the sapper as a concept won't be leaving Spy unless the replacement itself is an answer to sentries. Dude, I understand how the Sapper works. You're coming off kinda condescending right now, and that's saying something coming from me. But you're also kind of...overstating its importance to Spy's kit. There are plenty of times where an Engineer has been in play while I'm playing Spy but my sapper doesn't mean jack shit, because his nest is out of reach or too well-protected. There are also times where the assistance of my Sapper just plain isn't needed- see, Highlander, where my team is going to Uber on that sentry anyways, and it'll very often die without me needing to do anything. It's also not like Sentries consume the entire map, either. If I can't get to a nest, I'll operate outside of its range and pick of stragglers who push too far ahead or aren't yet in the range where a sentry can protect them. Hell, if it's in the open, I'll just shoot it. You'd be surprised how well that works. If there were no counters to Engineer and Sentries whatsoever besides the Spy and his Sapper, I would concede your point that a Sapper replacement shouldn't be a thing. This is...far from the case, though. Sapper isn't even in the top 5 of things that are good at destroying sentries. (In order: Uber pushes, Direct Hit, Loch n Load, Sticky Launcher, Grenade Launcher.) The Sapper's sole utility is destroying sentries, but this is a utility that is shared by every explosive weapon and any combat class with an Uber applied. My thinking is this: Spy isn't very viable, especially in competitive play. This is a problem, but it can't be fixed by straight buffs, since that would arguably make him overpowered. The answer instead, then, is to give him new utility. Of the weapon slots he has available, Sapper is by far the most situational. Especially in competitive play. Ergo, this would be the best weapon to provide replacements for.

funny, I can overwhelm engis by continually sap -> shoot -> resap and they can't do a thing to save the sentry despite landing every wrench hit and despite the revolver sap dmg nerf. perhaps you meant "top 5 things that are good at destroying sentries in a comp environment with entire teams involved" which kinds of become moot

That's way slower and more dangerous than using Direct Hit, Grenade Launcher, Sticky Launcher to destroy it from a distance, even in pub play. The methods I listed are better than the Sapper in pubs and competitive alike. It's also way easier to counter- good Engineers will just shoot you and then remove the sapper, because sap time actually takes a good little bit.

So to get this straight, you believe the sapper is not vital to the spy and he could easily do without it in exchage of some smoke bomb or wall glow gimmick? also if engi starts shooting me then ill just focus on him and it becomes aim vs aim, but his shit is still draining away.

Personally my favourite thing to do is go full on rollout Engie with the Jag or Gunslinger and turn the outside of his killzone into a killzone against him, constantly teleporting comrades in to turn his nest from a safezone into the frontline.

but then again, if we have ubers and explosive classes that can destroy sentries what is the point of having spies altogether? I mean, isnt like classes are designed to work above and beyond the original purpose they were designed for, and most of the time they can effectively and creatively do more than required steps to fullfill an objective, even if either their natural objetive isn't avaliable (ie sentries). lets not forget that one of the reasons of OW's aggresive stance agaisnt certain heroes being used even in pubs is that characters are designed to fullfill one role and will only excel at that specific role, role that more often than desired is already being covered by another hero that can do both and even excel at it. of course, this is not alien to TF2 and some classes are built around soft/hard counters to other classes, but even then regular tf2 play still allows any and every class to shine on its own, disregard of their kit.

I think that if Spy is going to get new utility weapon then it should be a sapper replacement, yes. The core of Spy is his watch and his knife, not the sapper. Whatever form a sapper replacement takes- smoke bomb, sonar, poison kit, whatever- it should be something that gives spy something new to do. I'd personally find sonar useful when playing defense as spy, or when two teams are on opposite sides of a choke in 5CP. Something like a poison kit would be more of a solo pubspy tool, but still fun to play with. Also, that fight isn't just aim vs aim. The Engineer's shotgun has a higher damage output, a lower accuracy requirement, and he has more health than you do. You're still at a disadvantage in that engagement, and it still isn't as fast or safe as Soldier or Demoman doing the job instead. but then again, if we have ubers and explosive classes that can destroy sentries what is the point of having spies altogether? this argument functions under the assumption that Spy's sole purpose as a class is to counter Engineer, which isn't the case. there are plenty of other targets that a Spy should be going after- in the case of Medic, arguably more important targets. but even if that were the case, that'd be a problem we'd need to fix, right?

I still feel the Spy would be interesting if that fourth slot had an assortment of tools the spy could use against the enemy ( or too support his team ) in a different variety of ways. But in order to take one piece, you have to give up the benefits of the others. I don't see another type of sapper really fitting that role either at least. Red Tape Recorder was an attempt, but since they were so simular in purpose it just became a problem of being viable without just being a straight upgrade over stock sapper. Which it turned out to be, and thus nerfed into the ground so the stock sapper is the only real choice. I will also admit that it still bothers me that the wrangler made it possible to build in spots Spy can't reach thanks to sentry blast jumping to spots that can't be reached normally. I wouldn't have much issue with this if the sapper could be replaced with other options or if the sapper served another purpose. But to completely deny the only reason a weapon exists seems like over kill. But what are you going to do? I've been asking for something about this to happen since the Wrangler was released, and not just remove wrangler jumping, but maybe ways for the spy to get up to these nests on his own without relying on the engineer's stupidity with teleporters or relying on the much riskier choice of using an enemy explosive to blast jump to them.

it feels like every engineer click is a guaranteed 90 when you say this. 10 pellets spread is certainly not easier to handle than the revolver. It's pointless to theorycraft as if 2 people are just puppet bots sitting next to eachother. Last I checked engis had 125 hp, and spy have reasonably smaller hitboxes + more move speed. Not to mention rescue ranger has the highest equip rate and kinda pales at self defense

I was on a 2fort server where an Engineer on our team built a sentry in the sewers in such a way that the metal bars to the concrete platform around halfway in was blocking the sightline of the sentry to an enemy teleporter, but as soon as anybody teleported in they got instantly mowed down. A Pyro existed just to ensure no ubers/fully healed Heavies lived long enough to kill the sentry. Engineer ended up having a 30 something killstreak toward the end of the match because the enemy Engineer figured "they must have given up" and kept teleporting in with a fully-built sentry.

if you're fighting close enough to his gun for him to shoot you...and you both have roughly the same aim capability...the shotgun is going to win, man. come on. I know you know that a spy 1v1ing an engineer isn't in the spy's favor, and isn't anywhere near better than an explosive class taking care of the problem quicker at a safe distance. also, yeah, I corrected the health point in my post. I was thinking of the Gunslinger Engie health, not stock Engie health. I will concede that the rescue ranger puts the Engineer at more of a disadvantage in this fight- pretty much forces him to use his wrench, actually. oh wait...the wrench crits in the pub scenario you're talking about, doesn't it? if the sentry's been up for a reasonable amount of time and putting in work, the spy is incredibly likely to get one-shotted. I'm not saying that the Engineer is 100% going to win, obviously- there are a ton of variables here. But if both players fight at close range like that, the Shotgun is factually the better weapon. And even if it weren't...that doesn't counter my original point, which is that the Direct Hit and Demo's Launchers are both already way better for this scenario anyways! Are you just arguing with me for the sake of arguing with me?