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Don't know what bit your rear, but don't put it on me. The Pyro is fine where it is, on the ground, and it gets around just fine with its average speed that it shares with other classes. Why would it need yet another thing to give it a speed boost? (The Attendant set for example).

the entire point of a Pyro is to be annoying. "okay Medic, get ready to pop that ubercha-" *Pyro'd* your job as a Pyro is to: A. check for Spys B. Extinguish burning teammates C. pop up out of nowhere when your enemies are least expecting you and completely fuck their shit sideways. the key to an effective Pyro is manuverability, and allowing SOME Pyros (increased explosive damage will turn a lot of people off) to flare-jump will only make the class more usefull as a whole. complaining about the Detonator giving Pyros enhanced manuverability is like complaining about the Jag giving Engies the ability to build faster. not to mention, I've played with it in Beta, trust me, the flares do a LOT of damage to the Pyro and there's not much Pyros can do while airborne anyway.

[QUOTE=Vaught;30108396]Don't know what bit your rear, but don't put it on me. The Pyro is fine where it is, on the ground, and it gets around just fine with its average speed that it shares with other classes. Why would it need yet another thing to give it a speed boost? (The Attendant set for example).[/QUOTE] The Pyro shares a base speed with SNIPER, SPY, ENGINEER. Those 3 are not suited for direct combat as they all have low health and their weaponry is not the best suited for up-front fighting. I never stated that the Pyro needs to go [i]faster[/i], I expressed my view that the Pyro just needs some vertical mobility because the class is fairly limited. The other combat classes have ways to get around. Scout is fast and can double-jump. Soldier can rocketjump. Demoman has explosives at his disposal. Pyro has to run, so does Heavy. But the Heavy is not inhibited by range, though. These other classes are still threatening while they're mobile. Pyro has to run [i]into range[/i] (which is limited and has inconsistent properties) but gets damages that are not as impressive (but is comparatively easy to aim). So why should a class that's been comparatively weak (with relation to other combat classes) since QWTF be left [i]as is[/i]? :colbert:

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;30108669]The Pyro shares a base speed with SNIPER, SPY, ENGINEER. Those 3 are not suited for direct combat as they all have low health and their weaponry is not the best suited for up-front fighting. I never stated that the Pyro needs to go [i]faster[/i], I expressed my view that the Pyro just needs some vertical mobility because the class is fairly limited. The other combat classes have ways to get around. Scout is fast and can double-jump. Soldier can rocketjump. Demoman has explosives at his disposal. Pyro has to run, so does Heavy. But the Heavy is not inhibited by range, though. These other classes are still threatening while they're mobile. Pyro has to run [i]into range[/i] (which is limited and has inconsistent properties) but gets damages that are not as impressive (but is comparatively easy to aim). So why should a class that's been comparatively weak (with relation to other combat classes) since QWTF be left [i]as is[/i]? :colbert:[/QUOTE] Soldier, Demo and, if counting GRU Heavy mobility costs health. Scout is just a glass cannon. While Pyro has no forward mobility on its own, he can still be effective at short to long range and keep a steady speed. Isn't that why he was given the Flare Gun? (Which is basically the Napalm Launcher) However, the TF2 team's tinkering has turned Pyro into more of a Combat Support class, being able to blow flames away and projectiles, as well as being able to kick sappers off and totally negate Ubers by just blowing them sideways, as well as CP management by blowing away attackers/defenders, especially for the last point. I recognize your opinion and respect that, but I don't think Pyro needs any more than it already has. [QUOTE=BanthaFodder;30108665]the entire point of a Pyro is to be annoying. "okay Medic, get ready to pop that ubercha-" *Pyro'd* your job as a Pyro is to: A. check for Spys B. Extinguish burning teammates C. pop up out of nowhere when your enemies are least expecting you and completely fuck their shit sideways. the key to an effective Pyro is manuverability, and allowing SOME Pyros (increased explosive damage will turn a lot of people off) to flare-jump will only make the class more usefull as a whole. complaining about the Detonator giving Pyros enhanced manuverability is like complaining about the Jag giving Engies the ability to build faster. not to mention, I've played with it in Beta, trust me, the flares do a LOT of damage to the Pyro and there's not much Pyros can do while airborne anyway.[/QUOTE] I understand Pyro's are meant to ambush, that's fine. But there's a difference between showing up out of nowhere and jumping into the air and divebombing everyone. Soldiers and Demo's, and to some extent Scouts, do that more efficiently. Pyros have the element of chaos, agreed. But they're already fine as is on the ground. And yes, I've played the Beta too, and while there isn't much to do in the air, it gives them an unneeded mobility boost. Why would they need to rocket jump up places where they shouldn't? Then again, the Wrangler introduced sentry jumping and that allowed Engy to build bases in places where they shouldn't be. Funny thing about the Jag is that it only builds things a slight bit faster, not exactly worth the tradeoff. To me at least.

Pyros should be not able to flarejump. Beta is silly sometimes.

[QUOTE=Vaught;30109264]Soldier, Demo and, if counting GRU Heavy mobility costs health. Scout is just a glass cannon. While Pyro has no forward mobility on its own, he can still be effective at short to [b]long range[/b] and keep a steady speed.[/quote] The fuck are you on? Pyro's not effective at long range, that's the Sniper's domain. Detonator jumping costs health, so there goes your justification for why the other classes get better mobility. Flarejumping isn't [i]as[/i] effective, but it doesn't take [i]as[/i] much health. That's what the Incendiary Cannon back in the day allowed: comparatively weak vertical mobility but at a less steep cost. [quote]Isn't that why he was given the Flare Gun? (Which is basically the Napalm Launcher)[/quote] They're different. Play some QWTF and TFC and you'll agree that they aren't the same. Despite the Flare Gun being a spiritual successor, the two weapons are still different in their own regards. The Detonator is closer to the IC of yore, but has an alt-fire-to-detonate attribute. [quote]However, the TF2 team's tinkering has turned Pyro into more of a Combat Support class, being able to blow flames away and projectiles, as well as being able to kick sappers off and totally negate Ubers by just blowing them sideways, as well as CP management by blowing away attackers/defenders, especially for the last point.[/QUOTE] I won't deny that the changes have been geared more towards support, but that doesn't justify rejecting an offensive-geared change.

I already know a few chokepoints where I could cause so much chaos if I could just go there as pyro with my backburner, that's one of the reasons I like the flarejumping.

[QUOTE=oldage;30109969]I already know a few chokepoints where I could cause so much chaos if I could just go there as pyro with my backburner, that's one of the reasons I like the flarejumping.[/QUOTE] Flarejumping certainly goes well with ambush backburning, I really wish it was somthing tied to the back burner.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;30109915]The fuck are you on? Pyro's not effective at long range, that's the Sniper's domain. Detonator jumping costs health, so there goes your justification for why the other classes get better mobility. Flarejumping isn't [i]as[/i] effective, but it doesn't take [i]as[/i] much health. That's what the Incendiary Cannon back in the day allowed: comparatively weak vertical mobility but at a less steep cost. They're different. Play some QWTF and TFC and you'll agree that they aren't the same. Despite the Flare Gun being a spiritual successor, the two weapons are still different in their own regards. The Detonator is closer to the IC of yore, but has an alt-fire-to-detonate attribute. I won't deny that the changes have been geared more towards support, but that doesn't justify rejecting an offensive-geared change.[/QUOTE] Flare gun is indeed effective at long ranges. Compared to the 6 damage a shotgun can do, it always does a solid bit of damage. It's slow moving, sure, but goes a super long range and can crit, even without the special condition. What I meant is that Pyro need not sacrifice health for his current mobility. Faster than those combat classes, yet they can move faster at the cost of HP, aside from the Scout which has the the the minimum HP to start with. Pyro can just waltz up and ready himself for an ambush, or run into combat and poof everything. Again, I respect your opinion, but I think the Pyro is fine in his department in regards to mobility. Besides the Scout, he doesn't need to sacrifice HP to get the field and gets there relatively quick.

[QUOTE=Vaught;30110606]Flare gun is indeed effective at long ranges. Compared to the 6 damage a shotgun can do, it always does a solid bit of damage. It's slow moving, sure, but goes a super long range and can crit, even without the special condition.[/quote] At long ranges, the only projectiles that are going to connect are on inattentive players or blind luck. There's no way to consistently connect against someone who's paying attention to you and at range. At mid-range, that's a different story, but we're talking long-range (as you suggested). It's just how projectiles behave, they take time to travel and people react to them. [quote]What I meant is that Pyro need not sacrifice health for his current mobility. Faster than those combat classes, yet they can move faster at the cost of HP, aside from the Scout which has the the the minimum HP to start with. Pyro can just waltz up and ready himself for an ambush, or run into combat and poof everything.[/QUOTE] That current mobility doesn't do very much. The best ambushes are almost always from above: someplace that the Pyro cannot get to without doing extensive jumping on map geometry or following a winding path to climb that high or even is completely inaccessible without getting assistance. For an "ambush class" it sure as hell does a bad job at getting into a position to ambush people.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;30110721]At long ranges, the only projectiles that are going to connect are on inattentive players or blind luck. There's no way to consistently connect against someone who's paying attention to you and at range. At mid-range, that's a different story, but we're talking long-range (as you suggested). It's just how projectiles behave, they take time to travel and people react to them. That current mobility doesn't do very much. The best ambushes are almost always from above: someplace that the Pyro cannot get to without doing extensive jumping on map geometry or following a winding path to climb that high or even is completely inaccessible without getting assistance. For an "ambush class" it sure as hell does a bad job at getting into a position to ambush people.[/QUOTE] Still does a nasty job even as it connects. While I agree it's not a trivial task, it's still possible. And the best ambushes are the ones that no one see's coming. But in a game like TF2, that's difficult as there's always the chance someone will go somewhere you expected to be the least traveled path and ruin it. There are plenty of ambush spots not above ground, but there are also many on the ground itself.

Vaught, I suggest you just bow out of this debate. It won't reasonably progress anywhere, you each have your own personal opinions on the balance of the game, and this thread isn't the place to discuss that.

/shrug. You've a point. Sorry everyone. :frown:

[QUOTE=Vaught;30115206]/shrug. You've a point. Sorry everyone. :frown:[/QUOTE] Nah, it's all right. You both have opinions about the matter and you should agree to disagree. If you ask me, the Detonator is fine as hell for me, I play Demo most of the time so easier Pyro kills for me. If anything, I'd rather they nerf the puffstings.

[QUOTE=Baboo00;30104353][img]http://wizard.gamebanana.com/img/ss/skins/68346a.jpg[/img] [url]http://www.gamebanana.com/skins/68346[/url][/QUOTE] "This video is no longer available because the uploader has closed their YouTube account." That's a shame, I wanted to see. I wonder what made them close it.

[QUOTE=Sabrina;30115352]Nah, it's all right. You both have opinions about the matter and you should agree to disagree. If you ask me, the Detonator is fine as hell for me, I play Demo most of the time so easier Pyro kills for me. If anything, I'd rather they nerf the puffstings.[/QUOTE] Puff stings are certainly tricky, personally I havn't used the axtinguisher since the powerjack and backscratcher came out, but I can see it's use. In a sense if you know what your doing you should be able to kill your target at that range (save for heavys and demoknights), but then again that sort of in and out quick kill can be ideal for chaotic situations.

what I like about the Detonator is that it helps EVERYONE. the Pyro's job is to be annoying and distract the enemy so the Pyro's teammates can land a few good hits. the Pyro is also a high-profile target for Demos and Soldiers (since Pyros can airblast), so this makes Pyro both easier and harder to play

[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;30123509]what I like about the Detonator is that it helps EVERYONE. the Pyro's job is to be annoying and distract the enemy so the Pyro's teammates can land a few good hits. the Pyro is also a high-profile target for Demos and Soldiers (since Pyros can airblast), so this makes Pyro both easier and harder to play[/QUOTE] That's what we call a skill-indexed buff.

longest update thread ever

[QUOTE=The Ultimate;30123900]longest update thread ever[/QUOTE] the engieneer one was faaaar more looonger.

this is based on something I heard, and I want to see if I'm right later apparently the new boss of Raid mode is [sp]a very big, very fucked up experimental Heavy[/sp] also [sp]SVDL's sniper sword[/sp] is in the video as is [sp]the Administrator[/sp]

[sp]Frankenheavy[/sp], maybe? Or is that the next Halloween Update? Maybe the [sp]Incredible Heavy[/sp] or [sp]Heavy Tank Guy[/sp], or [sp]Heavynator[/sp]?

[QUOTE=Corporal Yippie;30154644]this is based on something I heard, and I want to see if I'm right later apparently the new boss of Raid mode is [sp]a very big, very fucked up experimental Heavy[/sp][/QUOTE] I wouldn't actually be suprised seeing as [sp]In meet the medic, there is a scene where there is a heavy being operated on[/sp]

[QUOTE=UberMunchkin;30155169]How do you know? Was there a leak of MTM?[/QUOTE] I read these forums. [editline]31st May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Corporal Yippie;30154644]also [sp]SVDL's sniper sword[/sp] is in the video as is [sp]the Administrator[/sp][/QUOTE] also [sp]so is the gatsby[/sp] apparantly.

[QUOTE=Pie_Tony;30155221]I read these forums. [editline]31st May 2011[/editline] also [sp]so is the gatsby[/sp] apparantly.[/QUOTE] Awesome, I just bought one in real life. Also, where's all this coming from? :tinfoil:

[QUOTE=SnowCanary;30155272]Awesome, I just bought one in real life. Also, where's all this coming from? :tinfoil:[/QUOTE] I read the forums, seriously. The heavy part came from that guy who saw Meet the medic at valve, the gatsby was wanted by valve for ingame "and something else" which is now apparently going to be Meet the Medic. Nothing else valve could use it for.

[img]http://i52.tinypic.com/65omyo.png[/img]

[QUOTE=psyke;30155318][img]http://i52.tinypic.com/65omyo.png[/img][/QUOTE] Motherofgod.jpg I wonder if that Raid mode will allow for somebody to control the "boss" character. I'd love it to.

Wait what, how did you guys get Meet the Medic I've haven't read the thread because I don't feel like going through 50 pages, but I went through 47-57 and didn't see anything on Meet the Medic being revealed. [editline]31st May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Pie_Tony;30155304]I read the forums, seriously. The heavy part came from that guy who saw Meet the medic at valve, the gatsby was wanted by valve for ingame "and something else" which is now apparently going to be Meet the Medic. Nothing else valve could use it for.[/QUOTE] Oh ok, but where did above user get picture?

[QUOTE=Eeshton;30155363]Wait what, how did you guys get Meet the Medic I've haven't read the thread because I don't feel like going through 50 pages, but I went through 47-57 and didn't see anything on Meet the Medic being revealed. [editline]31st May 2011[/editline] Oh ok, but where did above user get picture?[/QUOTE] I'm not the above user, am I?