The Detonator is not glitched/bugged/or whatever and I have proof. - Games

[QUOTE=Doc_Fisherman;30773015][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NVb7naVj5E&feature=related[/media] Seriously this is what I always dream to do :sympathy:[/QUOTE] the same guy from the video made this later: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqNxrcH4ccM[/media]

[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;30776509]So you're really complaining now that the Detonator 'nerfed' Pyro's extremely situational ability (which likely doesn't happen more than 2 or 3 times per 20 minute match, even if you can pull it off) to rocket jump using enemy rockets now? Seriously, how much more will you guys complain? It's not enough that Pyro is an [b]extremely hard counter to Soldier, Demoman[/b], and Spy. It's not enough that Backburner got the airblast. It's not enough that all reflected projectiles became mini-crits. It's not enough that the Degreaser made Axtinguisher much more potent of a weapon. Pyro is NOT a shit class as most of you seem to think it is. It has a very healthy 175 HP, standard movement speed and provides invaluable utility to the team. Pyro's in a much better boat than Spy who get his shit tossed at his own face. The latest 2 knife unlocks both cut Spy's health to incredibly fragile levels, and the first knife unlock removed his ability to disguise at will. That or Engineer who hasn't gotten many viable unlocks other than the Jag and the situational Wrangler and Gunslinger. Pyro's squarely mid-tier as far as class balance seems to feel, but he's not shit bottom like you guys seem to think he is.[/QUOTE] LOL WHAT Stickybombs flying right at my head? NO problem, I'll just bounce em back with - Aw, crap they blew up. Rockets flying right at my feet? NO problem, I'll just reflect and miss and OH CRAP, SHOTGUN Grenades rolling at my legs? NO problem, I'll just scoot em on back with - DARN IT, they blew me up even though they turned red! Primary weapon has no effect outside of melee range? RIGHTY-O, I'll just airblast my enemy into that wall there and- OHHH, HE'S OUTSIDE MY RANGE and now I'm directly in a crowd of his teammates... [IMG]http://i56.tinypic.com/14wtyrb.png[/IMG] Puff N Sting is now the answer to the universe.

Wouldn't be easier to make harder to use detonator? I mean -25hp or -40 self damage..... But NO! Valve had to nerf "balanced" fun.

[QUOTE]You misunderstand, I'm stating that [b]requiring[/b] an enemy Soldier, Grenade Launcher Demoman, or Level 3 sentry to have any mobility that's greater than base mobility is [i]really[/i] weak for a so-called "ambush" class.[/quote] Pyro isn't the only ambush class. Spy was also designed to attack from behind, and also has base mobility. Scout's mobility is supposed to be used to flank the opponents and attack them from behind. [QUOTE]Except he's not. A competent player can easily dispatch a Pyro unless caught completely offguard (even then, damage rampup is in their favor).[/QUOTE] A competent player can easily dispatch any other class. The point you're making here is moot. A competent Heavy can kill a Sniper. A competent Soldier can kill a Pyro. A competent Spy can kill a Pyro. A competent any class can dispatch any other class. That's exactly what makes them a competent player. [QUOTE]The Backburner was shit-tier without it.[/QUOTE] It used to give the Pyro 215 HP. But I do know this was removed for a reason. But I also agree Backburner sucked without the airblast. [QUOTE]Reflected projectiles becoming more potent was to make the ability seem more rewarding instead of being affected doubly by damage falloff (was due to a bug that still exists in the game's code but isn't seen at all because mini-crits negate falloff). Degreaser and Axtinguisher are bandages. You cannot truly fix a class with weapons, you need to address the core class to [i]properly[/i] balance it across the board. Valve hasn't done this because it's a large investment and it's risky, it's not desirable to invest a lot of time and effort into something that has a considerable chance of not getting past preliminary alpha stages.[/QUOTE] Valve has already attempted this. They gave the Pyro the airblast. Vanilla TF2 didn't have the airblast at all. By introducing the Airblast, the Pyro became a hard counter for Soldier and Demoman, in addition to already being a hard counter for the Spy. In fact, no other class has received such a large buff other than the Pyro. Other classes have merely gotten sidegrade weapon unlocks, while Pyro got an entirely new mechanic, which is now usable throughout any of his primary weapons. [QUOTE]175 hp and 100% movement speed is practically required with a short range primary weapon. Any slower or lower HP and he'd get shredded even when in his prime range: people would be able to escape it by running or shooting it to death (which happens already).[/QUOTE] Well I'm glad Valve balanced Pyro's HP and movement speed to be just right. Apparently you also agree that it's necessary for his primary weapon. All classes run away and shoot at another class as a tactic. Medics backpedal and shoot at Soldiers. Spies backpedal and shoot at Pyros. Scouts backpedal and shoot at Heavies. That point serves no purpose. Everyone does that, and it's not exclusive as an Anti-Pyro tactic. [QUOTE]Almost everything that the Pyro can do can be done by some other class, but better. For it's own worth, Pyro is the most cost-efficient spychecker and has a self-sacrificial (or at least incredibly risky) anti-ubercharge ability. Deflecting projectiles is a minor utility when your teammates discover the wonders of dodging. Extinguishing fires isn't that useful unless they're near death anyway, otherwise it's free Ubercharge for your team's Medic.[/QUOTE] No other class hard counters Soldier, Demoman, or Spy as well as Pyro. I've mentioned this many times before. Dodging is a moot point. Competent Soldiers can lead rockets in a way to wall you against stage props or walls of the map. Competent allies can dodge rockets. Mentioning 'dodging' is a moot point because it's relative to either skill of your allies or skill of the opponent. Extinguishing teammates is always good practice. Choosing NOT to extinguish an ally with your airblast only contributes to the collective of awful play practice found in TF2. The Medic is not a god and cannot heal everyone. Merely allowing the damage to happen does not help. The soldier can control the speed of ubercharge building on his own. The Medic does not need to focus on 4 or 5 partially damaged allies to build ubercharge because medigun target hopping is disorienting and distracting to the Medic's responsibility to live. I can't name how many times I die because I run off 10 feet away to heal another dieing teammate, only to die myself as well. If I can leave my medigun building on the Soldier, I can focus on looking around and evading all damage instead. [quote]Dead Ringer. Enforcer. Saharan Spy set. Wrangler isn't exactly situational if the Engineer has a brain. The entirety of map balance is centered around the existence of Engineer buildings: sentries, dispensers, and teleporters play a [i]huge[/i] role in gameplay for allies and enemies (as proven by internal testing with the Repair Node).[/quote] Dead Ringer is the bread'n'butter of the current Spy. It's pretty predictable. Enforcer is nice. Saharan Spy set is situational. Most like to use it with Dead Ringer to counter the loud decloak noise, but the use of those two means you can neither disguise at will nor cloak at will in which some cases will screw you over. Any time I see a Spy wearing the Fez, I continue to shoot in the area as it's very obvious that they're attempting to abuse the set bonus for a quieter Dead Ringer decloak. Wrangler is situational because it disables automatic targeting and self sentry repair. Some sentry positions don't favor wrangler use while other sentry positions receive a huge benefit from Wrangler use. Placing a sentry around a corner doesn't favor Wrangler as much as placing down a tunnel where enemies will inevitably die before they get through. [editline]29th June 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Spybreak;30777022]LOL WHAT Stickybombs flying right at my head? NO problem, I'll just bounce em back with - Aw, crap they blew up. Rockets flying right at my feet? NO problem, I'll just reflect and miss and OH CRAP, SHOTGUN Grenades rolling at my legs? NO problem, I'll just scoot em on back with - DARN IT, they blew me up even though they turned red! Primary weapon has no effect outside of melee range? RIGHTY-O, I'll just airblast my enemy into that wall there and- OHHH, HE'S OUTSIDE MY RANGE and now I'm directly in a crowd of his teammates... [IMG]http://i56.tinypic.com/14wtyrb.png[/IMG] Puff N Sting is now the answer to the universe.[/QUOTE] What point are you trying to make here? Are you saying that Pyro is NOT a Soldier or Demoman or Spy hard counter, despite being the only class with the airblast? Also, in all your situational scenarios, how would the Detonator having a flare jump help the Pyro in any way? Remember, this is a thread about the Detonator, not a circle-jerk of Pyro complaints.

[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;30777208]What point are you trying to make here? Are you saying that Pyro is NOT a Soldier or Demoman or Spy hard counter?[/QUOTE] Nope, maybe Spy, but Soldiers and Demo? You best be joking.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v12I8D44YU[/media]

[QUOTE=Yardbomb;30777360]Nope, maybe Spy, but Soldiers and Demo? You best be joking.[/QUOTE] The best counter for a Soldier or a Demo is... a Soldier or a Demo. Not fucking joking. Especially a Soldier with the Black Box (allows for prolonged combat) or a Demo with the Scottish Resistance (Allows for remote destruction of enemy stickies).

"No, the Detonator jump ability is FAR too overpowered! It could give them mobility they desperately need, and we can't have that! Plus, we need to give the Demoman more swords! In fact, let's give him a full demoknight set so he never has to blow things up ever again! Also, lets give the heavy a Minigun replacement that functions like a machine gun, because heavy is too slow and crippled! Also, more items for soldier, because soldier only has a sorry 20 items, not counting hats! If we don't give Soldier new items SPUF will complain at us citing that he recieves no love, which is something they've never done before!"

[QUOTE=eps102;30777411][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v12I8D44YU[/media][/QUOTE] Soldier MOG: Kill the demo, medic, and both enemy soldiers Demo MOG: Wipe out the entire team Medic MOG: Kill the demo with the ubersaw, and use that uber to block the last point Pyro MOG: Deal 60 damage to a medic to finish him off

[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;30777208]Pyro isn't the only ambush class. Spy was also designed to attack from behind, and also has base mobility. Scout's mobility is supposed to be used to flank the opponents and attack them from behind. [/quote] And obviously those classes have additional ways of ambushing, through the use of disguises and cloak for spy and speed and maneuverability for scout. [quote]A competent player can easily dispatch any other class. The point you're making here is moot. A competent Heavy can kill a Sniper. A competent Soldier can kill a Pyro. A competent Spy can kill a Pyro. A competent any class can dispatch any other class. That's exactly what makes them a competent player.[/quote] Yes, but it is much more difficult to kill a heavy at his optimal range than it is to kill a pyro at its optimal range. Pyro is terrible compared to some other classes at close range, and close range classes usually do well in close range, no? [quote]It used to give the Pyro 215 HP. But I do know this was removed for a reason. But I also agree Backburner sucked without the airblast.[/quote] [quote]Valve has already attempted this. They gave the Pyro the airblast. Vanilla TF2 didn't have the airblast at all. By introducing the Airblast, the Pyro became a hard counter for Soldier and Demoman, in addition to already being a hard counter for the Spy. In fact, no other class has received such a large buff other than the Pyro. Other classes have merely gotten sidegrade weapon unlocks, while Pyro got an entirely new mechanic, which is now usable throughout any of his primary weapons.[/quote] So many "entirely new mechanics" have been put into the game since launch that its silly to single out the airblast. [quote]Well I'm glad Valve balanced Pyro's HP and movement speed to be just right. Apparently you also agree that it's necessary for his primary weapon. All classes run away and shoot at another class as a tactic. Medics backpedal and shoot at Soldiers. Spies backpedal and shoot at Pyros. Scouts backpedal and shoot at Heavies. That point serves no purpose. Everyone does that, and it's not exclusive as an Anti-Pyro tactic.[/quote] Not much to say about this. [quote]No other class hard counters Soldier, Demoman, or Spy as well as Pyro. I've mentioned this many times before.[/quote] I don't even see how you can think this is true. You've been watching too many youtube videos that showcase random luck reflect kills. Of course they counter spies. I won't go into a spy discussion about how every class has a spy counter nowadays though. [quote]Dodging is a moot point. Competent Soldiers can lead rockets in a way to wall you against stage props or walls of the map. Competent allies can dodge rockets. Mentioning 'dodging' is a moot point because it's relative to either skill of your allies or skill of the opponent. [/quote] OK, whatever. [quote]Extinguishing teammates is always good practice. Choosing NOT to extinguish an ally with your airblast only contributes to the collective of awful play practice found in TF2. The Medic is not a god and cannot heal everyone. Merely allowing the damage to happen does not help. The soldier can control the speed of ubercharge building on his own. The Medic does not need to focus on 4 or 5 partially damaged allies to build ubercharge because medigun target hopping is disorienting and distracting to the Medic's responsibility to live. I can't name how many times I die because I run off 10 feet away to heal another dieing teammate, only to die myself as well. If I can leave my medigun building on the Soldier, I can focus on looking around and evading all damage instead.[/quote] No pyro player that knows what they are doing is going to let their teammates burn to death; you can't make a point about player skill being moot in a discussion and then talk about the skill of pyros and extinguishing. Then you talk about some stuff that has nothing to do with the pyro or the detonator. [quote]What point are you trying to make here? Are you saying that Pyro is NOT a Soldier or Demoman or Spy hard counter, despite being the only class with the airblast?[/quote] You act as if the airblast is a perfect counter to projectile classes instead of trying to counter the points people have made repeatedly. [quote]Also, in all your situational scenarios, how would the Detonator having a flare jump help the Pyro in any way? Remember, this is a thread about the Detonator, not a circle-jerk of Pyro complaints.[/QUOTE] Mobility. If soldiers and demomen use it to their advantage, pyros will surely have a myriad of situations where mobility will assist them as well.

[QUOTE]And obviously those classes have additional ways of ambushing, through the use of disguises and cloak for spy and speed and maneuverability for scout.[/QUOTE] Ambush is for the unseen. It's not an ambush if Pyro is seen flying through the sky. For the same reason Demomen and Soldiers are not ambush classes despite having mobility. Of course they can attempt an offensive jump while raining explosives from above, but depending on the size of the enemy group, you could just get killed midair. [QUOTE]Yes, but it is much more difficult to kill a heavy at his optimal range than it is to kill a pyro at its optimal range. Pyro is terrible compared to some other classes at close range, and close range classes usually do well in close range, no?[/QUOTE] I hate to pull the Degreaser + Axtinguisher card here, but it's viable. Killing any close range class involves a lot of circle strafing and luck. Sometimes if you choose to circle strafe and use your melee weapon you might get a lucky crit, because melee weapons have the additional +15% chance to do so. Otherwise it's more effective for a Pyro to attempt to disorient the player with an airblast upwards and axtinguisher on the way down, or flare/shotgun them while they're predictably airborne. [QUOTE]So many "entirely new mechanics" have been put into the game since launch that its silly to single out the airblast.[/QUOTE] I mentioned class-wide mechanic additions for a reason. New items have brought situational mechanics that only apply if you carry that item. Pyro basically got a direct buff, regardless of what weapon loadout he carries. Airblast is now usable on any loadout you choose. [QUOTE]I don't even see how you can think this is true. You've been watching too many youtube videos that showcase random luck reflect kills. Of course they counter spies. I won't go into a spy discussion about how every class has a spy counter nowadays though.[/QUOTE] Perhaps I'm the only one in here that can reflect rockets reliably? Or possibly it's because I play against awful Soldiers or Demomen in pub servers that I can reliably counter as Pyro. It's situational since different skill levels are involved in this practice. [QUOTE]No pyro player that knows what they are doing is going to let their teammates burn to death; you can't make a point about player skill being moot in a discussion and then talk about the skill of pyros and extinguishing.[/QUOTE] I'm glad you agree with me that extinguishing is good play practice. In addition, I didn't say anything about pyro skill and extinguishing. I said not extinguishing, in reference to a point made by another person, contributes to awful playing practice. Extinguishing by right-clicking in front of an ally is hardly skill, but considering that about half the Pyros I see don't bother it might just be skillful. [QUOTE]You act as if the airblast is a perfect counter to projectile classes instead of trying to counter the points people have made repeatedly.[/QUOTE] Counters work by defeating what the other class does best. Pyros can reflect, essentially negating the projectiles which is what Demomen and Soldiers do best, while potentially killing them at the same time. In addition, what points? I don't bother to reply to circle-jerk posts only made to bitch about Pyro's impotence. Responding to idiocy is only met with idiocy in their inevitable rebuttal. [Quote]Mobility. If soldiers and demomen use it to their advantage, pyros will surely have a myriad of situations where mobility will assist them as well.[/QUOTE] That doesn't have anything to do with the situations he described. Read again. [Quote]Stickybombs flying right at my head? NO problem, I'll just bounce em back with - Aw, crap they blew up.[/Quote] What can the Detonator do in this situation to save me? Not a damn thing. If you're smart, you'll wait until the Demoman has expended 8 rapid-fire air detonated stickies before running out again to try to take him out. It's a lot easier to predict Demoman shots if he has to reload once before he can even fire at you. [Quote]Rockets flying right at my feet? NO problem, I'll just reflect and miss and OH CRAP, SHOTGUN[/Quote] What can the Detonator do in this situation to save me? Not a damn thing. If the Soldier is using his shotgun, you can try to strafe and shoot your Detonator, but I doubt it would get you far. It'd take 4 Detonator attacks to kill the Soldier in this situation if he's at full HP. More if he's overhealed. In addition, the Soldier is likely to switch back to his Rocket Launcher as soon as he sees you've pulled out your secondary. [Quote]Grenades rolling at my legs? NO problem, I'll just scoot em on back with - DARN IT, they blew me up even though they turned red![/Quote] What can the Detonator do in this situation to save me? Not a damn thing. I doubt most players would be quick enough to Detonator jump to safety if the grenade was about to explode. Not to mention the Detonator jump would likely do more damage to you than taking splash damage from your own team colored grenade. [Quote]Primary weapon has no effect outside of melee range? RIGHTY-O, I'll just airblast my enemy into that wall there and- OHHH, HE'S OUTSIDE MY RANGE and now I'm directly in a crowd of his teammates...[/Quote] What can the Detonator do in this situation to save me? You could try to Detonator jump to safety, but given the smaller size of the jump and the fact that the entire enemy team is likely shooting at you, survival isn't guaranteed. All four situations describe Pyro in a fucked situation. A Pyro with a Detonator doesn't change the situation at all. He's still fucked.

I wonder if they nerfed it because it encroaches too much on Soldier and Spies territory... At any rate, at this point its just another shitty unlock that I'll never use. There's lots of those in TF2 these days.

Someone give me Greg Cherlin's email, I'm showing him this thread and the Spuf thread so he can see what his little nerf has done to the best weapon in the beta

I believe I hate this person who is not Greg. Seriously though they never fixed things like Wrangler Jumping and that shit can get really fucking annoying. But noooo, if it's the Pyro it's not allowed to be useful. If you ever played the Beta you would have found that the Detonator was not OP in the slightest. The original version of it was very well balanced. Pyro gets a good ranged weapon but he dies a lot faster when he gets hit with a rocket. It worked. Now he has a slightly less powerful Flare Gun that you can hurt yourself with. Fucking bullshit, person who is not Greg. Fucking bullshit.

[QUOTE=The Calzone;30779830]Seriously though they never fixed things like Wrangler Jumping and that shit can get really fucking annoying. But noooo, if it's the Pyro it's not allowed to be useful.[/QUOTE] The only use that could come out of wrangler jumping is good teleporter placement and just general faster transportation. The Engie takes quite a bit of damage from his sentry rockets + the possibly fall damage. That Engineer shouldn't be much of a threat if you come to face-to-face with him after he jumps.

[QUOTE=mixshifter;30779988]The only use that could come out of wrangler jumping is good teleporter placement and just general faster transportation. The Engie takes quite a bit of damage from his sentry rockets + the possibly fall damage. That Engineer shouldn't be much of a threat if you come to face-to-face with him after he jumps.[/QUOTE] I could replace the word "wrangler" with "Flare," "Engie" with "Pyro" and omit the bit about teleporters and I would have a perfect argument for the Detonator.

OP, this "proof" only implies that the detonator was nerfed, not that it isn't bugged. Why the hell would Valve make it so that an explosion would only ignite one enemy and have the + self damage not apply at all? Flare jumping may have been removed, but the detonator is broken either way.

[QUOTE=AlfieSR;30780125]OP, this "proof" only implies that the detonator was nerfed, not that it isn't bugged. Why the hell would Valve make it so that an explosion would only ignite one enemy and have the + self damage not apply at all? Flare jumping may have been removed, but the detonator is broken either way.[/QUOTE] The way the e-mail was worded, it seems that the Detonator was ready to ship and then some one person decided "NOPE I WON'T HAVE THIS" and did a botched job at "fixing" it. So this unknown person who is not Greg is not only bad at judging balance he's also fucking horrible at coding.

[QUOTE=The Calzone;30780178]The way the e-mail was worded, it seems that the Detonator was ready to ship and then some one person decided "NOPE I WON'T HAVE THIS" and did a botched job at "fixing" it. So this unknown person who is not Greg is not only bad at judging balance he's also fucking horrible at coding.[/QUOTE] Since when does garry work at Valve? [sp]I'm kidding, of course[/sp]

[QUOTE=The Calzone;30780027]I could replace the word "wrangler" with "Flare," "Engie" with "Pyro" and omit the bit about teleporters and I would have a perfect argument for the Detonator.[/QUOTE] Not really since the detonator doesn't do as much damage to the Pyro as a sentry rocket would do to the Engineer. And since the Pyro specializes in close-combat, he'll have less trouble in areas such as the Sniper deck on 2fort, making him more of an easy threat to the opposing team.

This kinda makes me happy Valve [i]didn't[/i] add something for the Engineer. Considering how bad they fucked up this thing.

I'd like to meet whoever uses pyro when testing valve's stuff, because this man must be a true god of fire. Or valve's demomen players all have serious nerve damage on their hands.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;30775448]I already explained how it's not overpowered. It may have been unintended, but don't you dare try to tell me that it's overpowered without backing up your claim. [editline]29th June 2011[/editline] Other classes can do those things better and with more safety, Pyro needs to get right up in someone's face to axtinguish someone which is where damage rampup will destroy him/her with ease. The only thing that's Pyro-specific is projectile deflection and afterburn extinguishing.[/QUOTE] Valve does fuck loads of balance testing when they're adding in new maps and weapons. They can't just pull shit out of their ass and throw it into the game. In addition, Valve pays a lot of attention to the competitive community, as TF2 has a big competitive audience. It's amazing how many people are bitching that for example, engineer didn't get any new packs in the uber update. The engineer is one of the hardest classes to come up with new ideas for without destroying their role and balance. Soldier got 5 weapons because soldier is a much more simple class that isn't as complex as the engineer. They probably had those ideas for the new soldier stuff sitting around for a good while. Grow the fuck up, you guys are being children who think you'd know exactly what would happen in any situation, thus know whatever is balanced and not. Again, valve does tons of testing, they understand all the logic behind what's what in TF2 and more. The detonator was simply put overpowered as fuck. [editline]29th June 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=MrCasual;30774001]Someone fucking Email Robin or Gabe about this shit. I want to hear this straight from them. I want them to make a blog post explaining IN DETAIL how this would be OP, and how it is more OP than Soldiers and Demomen jumping around with explosives. They rape Pyro in the ass so much its not even funny, Pyro has been reduced to a fire blasting maniac to a class that is almost entirely reliant on unlocks, and the only bone they threw to Pyro mains in the last 6 months has been nerfed before it was even in the actual game. I'm so fucking mad right now I can't even think straight. You give up a hitscan weapon. Thats a decent enough downside. You give up full crits on burning characters. Thats a decent enough downside. You get a weapon that can't even detonate flares consistently. Whoopie. They nerfed its only useful ability to where its worse than FaN jumping and you still take 20% damage. This makes no fucking sense Valve. FUCKING FIX THIS SHIT OR TAKE AWAY THE DAMAGE PENALTY IF YOU'RE GONNA BE GOD DAMN FAGGOTS WITH IT.[/QUOTE] ahahahaha nerd rage, really? Also what the fuck are you talking about, pyro has been treated very well and he gets all sorts of unlocks that allow him to use different play styles. Incase you haven't noticed, using the base loadout still has all it's own advantages. Please, before you go on a mad fit that Valve is treating pyro like shit, please explain to us what's so bad about how pyro has been treated lately. How is pyro all dependent on unlocks now? [editline]29th June 2011[/editline] I must say, it's simply amazing how so many facepunchers have not the slightest idea of how real game development works or balance. It's like you guys just base everything off "oh man u no wut would be REALLY COOL?" [editline]29th June 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Joey JoJo;30777972]Ambush is for the unseen. It's not an ambush if Pyro is seen flying through the sky. For the same reason Demomen and Soldiers are not ambush classes despite having mobility. Of course they can attempt an offensive jump while raining explosives from above, but depending on the size of the enemy group, you could just get killed midair. I hate to pull the Degreaser + Axtinguisher card here, but it's viable. Killing any close range class involves a lot of circle strafing and luck. Sometimes if you choose to circle strafe and use your melee weapon you might get a lucky crit, because melee weapons have the additional +15% chance to do so. Otherwise it's more effective for a Pyro to attempt to disorient the player with an airblast upwards and axtinguisher on the way down, or flare/shotgun them while they're predictably airborne. I mentioned class-wide mechanic additions for a reason. New items have brought situational mechanics that only apply if you carry that item. Pyro basically got a direct buff, regardless of what weapon loadout he carries. Airblast is now usable on any loadout you choose. Perhaps I'm the only one in here that can reflect rockets reliably? Or possibly it's because I play against awful Soldiers or Demomen in pub servers that I can reliably counter as Pyro. It's situational since different skill levels are involved in this practice. I'm glad you agree with me that extinguishing is good play practice. In addition, I didn't say anything about pyro skill and extinguishing. I said not extinguishing, in reference to a point made by another person, contributes to awful playing practice. Extinguishing by right-clicking in front of an ally is hardly skill, but considering that about half the Pyros I see don't bother it might just be skillful. Counters work by defeating what the other class does best. Pyros can reflect, essentially negating the projectiles which is what Demomen and Soldiers do best, while potentially killing them at the same time. In addition, what points? I don't bother to reply to circle-jerk posts only made to bitch about Pyro's impotence. Responding to idiocy is only met with idiocy in their inevitable rebuttal. That doesn't have anything to do with the situations he described. Read again. What can the Detonator do in this situation to save me? Not a damn thing. If you're smart, you'll wait until the Demoman has expended 8 rapid-fire air detonated stickies before running out again to try to take him out. It's a lot easier to predict Demoman shots if he has to reload once before he can even fire at you. What can the Detonator do in this situation to save me? Not a damn thing. If the Soldier is using his shotgun, you can try to strafe and shoot your Detonator, but I doubt it would get you far. It'd take 4 Detonator attacks to kill the Soldier in this situation if he's at full HP. More if he's overhealed. In addition, the Soldier is likely to switch back to his Rocket Launcher as soon as he sees you've pulled out your secondary. What can the Detonator do in this situation to save me? Not a damn thing. I doubt most players would be quick enough to Detonator jump to safety if the grenade was about to explode. Not to mention the Detonator jump would likely do more damage to you than taking splash damage from your own team colored grenade. What can the Detonator do in this situation to save me? You could try to Detonator jump to safety, but given the smaller size of the jump and the fact that the entire enemy team is likely shooting at you, survival isn't guaranteed. All four situations describe Pyro in a fucked situation. A Pyro with a Detonator doesn't change the situation at all. He's still fucked.[/QUOTE] Congratualtions, you pulled four random situations out of your ass with no regard to practical purposes the detonator has. You people are just convincing yourselves that the detonator is completely awful with no practical use so you can feel right about being so outrageously angry. [editline]29th June 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=MrCasual;30779418]I wonder if they nerfed it because it encroaches too much on Soldier and Spies territory... At any rate, at this point its just another shitty unlock that I'll never use. There's lots of those in TF2 these days.[/QUOTE] What are you talking about? TF2 has little to none usless "shitty" unlocks. Even the "worst" of unlocks as considered by the community have their practical purposes. Fists of steel have been nerfed, but it still has it's uses, sandman still has it's uses, bonk has it's uses, etc.

Goddamn slowpunch... [QUOTE=Leaf Runner;30783708]Valve does fuck loads of balance testing when they're adding in new maps and weapons. They can't just pull shit out of their ass and throw it into the game. In addition, Valve pays a lot of attention to the competitive community, as TF2 has a big competitive audience. It's amazing how many people are bitching that for example, engineer didn't get any new packs in the uber update. The engineer is one of the hardest classes to come up with new ideas for without destroying their role and balance. Soldier got 5 weapons because soldier is a much more simple class that isn't as complex as the engineer. They probably had those ideas for the new soldier stuff sitting around for a good while. Grow the fuck up, you guys are being children who think you'd know exactly what would happen in any situation, thus know whatever is balanced and not. Again, valve does tons of testing, they understand all the logic behind what's what in TF2 and more. The detonator was simply put overpowered as fuck. [/QUOTE] Are you trying to counter my statements with [i]my own viewpoint[/i]? They put it in the Team Fortress 2 Beta for a reason: to get feedback from the community as a whole, competitive and casual players alike were free to [i]test[/i] this out. The Engineer, Medic, and Demoman (not meleeman) are all balance-sensitive, I've stated that time and time again and I find it rather insulting that you are talking down to me in spite of the fact that I've made this exact argument in the past. If the Detonator truly was "overpowered as fuck", don't you think that we'd have noticed Pyros decimating their enemies in the Team Fortress 2 Beta? That was rarely ever seen. In the cases where it was seen, it was usually the fault of a considerable skill gap between the Pyro player and his/her targets. It's not some new development to realize that [b]good players are [i]supposed[/i] to be better than bad players[/b]. Apparently, if it's a Pyro, it's overpowered, if it's a Soldier, everything's peachy-keen. You've done nothing to refute my challenge to you: prove that it is overpowered and back up your claim. All you've done is state what is essentially "Valve knows best." Newsflash, they are not infallible. They've made mistakes in the past and most certainly will make some in the future. Weapons like the Sandman, Natascha, and Tomislav are sufficient proof that they are not perfect when it comes to designing weapons. If it really was simply "overpowered as fuck" as you claim, then show me hard evidence proving that it actually was when it was at its original power level in the TF2Beta. Citing situations where there was a considerable skill gap (ie pubs vs veterans) won't cut it.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;30786156]Goddamn slowpunch... Are you trying to counter my statements with [i]my own viewpoint[/i]? They put it in the Team Fortress 2 Beta for a reason: to get feedback from the community as a whole, competitive and casual players alike were free to [i]test[/i] this out. The Engineer, Medic, and Demoman (not meleeman) are all balance-sensitive, I've stated that time and time again and I find it rather insulting that you are talking down to me in spite of the fact that I've made this exact argument in the past. If the Detonator truly was "overpowered as fuck", don't you think that we'd have noticed Pyros decimating their enemies in the Team Fortress 2 Beta? That was rarely ever seen. In the cases where it was seen, it was usually the fault of a considerable skill gap between the Pyro player and his/her targets. It's not some new development to realize that [b]good players are [i]supposed[/i] to be better than bad players[/b]. Apparently, if it's a Pyro, it's overpowered, if it's a Soldier, everything's peachy-keen. You've done nothing to refute my challenge to you: prove that it is overpowered and back up your claim. All you've done is state what is essentially "Valve knows best." Newsflash, they are not infallible. They've made mistakes in the past and most certainly will make some in the future. Weapons like the Sandman, Natascha, and Tomislav are sufficient proof that they are not perfect when it comes to designing weapons. If it really was simply "overpowered as fuck" as you claim, then show me hard evidence proving that it actually was when it was at its original power level in the TF2Beta. Citing situations where there was a considerable skill gap (ie pubs vs veterans) won't cut it.[/QUOTE] The public TF2 beta isn't enough to determine balance. Incase you haven't noticed, almost everybody who plays the beta rushes to try the newest item with no regard for the existence of others. You can't properly test if everyone is just wildly trying out the new stuff. The detonator flarejump was overpowered as it allowed the pyro to travel fast and escalate to new heights with ease. Incase you haven't noticed, jumping like that is supposed to be a soldier feature, and the soldier was built around the ability for the most part as the soldier's ability to escalate heights fast was a key feature. Adding a flarejump for the pyro is a huge buff, you guys are not looking at the full scope of things. [editline]29th June 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Psychopath12;30786156]Goddamn slowpunch... Are you trying to counter my statements with [i]my own viewpoint[/i]? They put it in the Team Fortress 2 Beta for a reason: to get feedback from the community as a whole, competitive and casual players alike were free to [i]test[/i] this out. The Engineer, Medic, and Demoman (not meleeman) are all balance-sensitive, I've stated that time and time again and I find it rather insulting that you are talking down to me in spite of the fact that I've made this exact argument in the past. If the Detonator truly was "overpowered as fuck", don't you think that we'd have noticed Pyros decimating their enemies in the Team Fortress 2 Beta? That was rarely ever seen. In the cases where it was seen, it was usually the fault of a considerable skill gap between the Pyro player and his/her targets. It's not some new development to realize that [b]good players are [i]supposed[/i] to be better than bad players[/b]. Apparently, if it's a Pyro, it's overpowered, if it's a Soldier, everything's peachy-keen. You've done nothing to refute my challenge to you: prove that it is overpowered and back up your claim. All you've done is state what is essentially "Valve knows best." Newsflash, they are not infallible. They've made mistakes in the past and most certainly will make some in the future. Weapons like the Sandman, Natascha, and Tomislav are sufficient proof that they are not perfect when it comes to designing weapons. If it really was simply "overpowered as fuck" as you claim, then show me hard evidence proving that it actually was when it was at its original power level in the TF2Beta. Citing situations where there was a considerable skill gap (ie pubs vs veterans) won't cut it.[/QUOTE] The public TF2 beta isn't enough to determine balance. Incase you haven't noticed, almost everybody who plays the beta rushes to try the newest item with no regard for the existence of others. You can't properly test if everyone is just wildly trying out the new stuff. The detonator flarejump was overpowered as it allowed the pyro to travel fast and escalate to new heights with ease. Incase you haven't noticed, jumping like that is supposed to be a soldier feature, and the soldier was built around the ability for the most part as the soldier's ability to escalate heights fast was a key feature. Adding a flarejump for the pyro is a huge buff, you guys are not looking at the full scope of things.

[QUOTE=Leaf Runner;30786571] The detonator flarejump was overpowered as it allowed the pyro to travel fast and escalate to new heights with ease. Adding a flarejump for the pyro is a huge buff[/QUOTE] Explain to me how either of these are bad at all, because "it's a Soldier feature" explains nothing.

I'm just going to point something out: [b]Rocketjumping was an unintentional side-effect of explosive knockback way back in the original Quake[/b]. The developers didn't design their maps or weapons around the ability to do that, but players loved it and it was fun. The developers embraced it because both themselves and the players enjoyed it. Was it overpowered in its first iteration? Considering that [b]it still had the power of a rocketlauncher[/b], it was a little overpowered. The developers tweaked balance accordingly [i]without axing its existence because it was unintended[/i].

Leafblower's argument; "If it does not balance to the soldier, and is useful, it is overpowered. The comp set up must not be changed!"

The beta is stupid anyway, I go there to try the new weps yet every game I get like 3 or more trades saying "U GOT ANY HATZZZZZZZZZZ????" IT'S A MOTHER FUCKING BETA

At this point, I'm all for giving the Pyro its flarejump. Because why the fuck not? It can't do shit in the air except get a single shot off. Be a huge target for people who can aim. And furthermore, it'll let Pyro set up ambush spots quicker, or escape faster. Sure this means my life as Medic will be total hell now that they can get to spots I don't want them in, but then again, if my patient isn't looking out for me, then I need a new patient. Why can't we be friends? :frown: