The Detonator is not glitched/bugged/or whatever and I have proof. - Games

[QUOTE=Leaf Runner;30786571]The public TF2 beta isn't enough to determine balance. In case you haven't noticed, almost everybody who plays the beta rushes to try the newest item with no regard for the existence of others. You can't properly test if everyone is just wildly trying out the new stuff. The detonator flarejump was overpowered as it allowed the pyro to travel fast and escalate to new heights with ease. In case you haven't noticed, jumping like that is supposed to be a soldier feature, and the soldier was built around the ability for the most part as the soldier's ability to escalate heights fast was a key feature. Adding a flarejump for the pyro is a huge buff, you guys are not looking at the full scope of things. [/quote] So you're saying the public beta for TF2 isn't enough to determine balance. So what's the point of the beta anyways? The beta is there for player feedback, and the player feedback showed that the detonator wasn't overpowered. I'm competent with every class, especially Soldier and Demoman, and good Pyros who used the detonator did not seem powerful at all to go against. Here's why: 1) Pyro is useless in the air. He can't hurt anybody while flying and can only reflect rockets, and unless he's using the degreaser the weapon switch time would make any attempt to reflect impossible. 2) The detonator is a fair tradeoff. He trades his ability to do 90 damage on burning targets and the ability to effectively fight at mid range for the ability to jump up to a platform and either flank or grab a medkit, or possibly get to the front lines quicker (the point that it encroaches on Soldier/Demo territory is not a valid point because time and time again Valve has proved that it doesn't care about that, either by the various health giving weapons/buffs to lessen the need for a medic, bleed damage, Spy headshots, Medic crossbow, Demo swords encroaching on the CQC territory of Pyro (a stretch I guess), etc.. ) 3) The Pyro is a weak class and it could use something to indirectly help it. The Pyro, a close quarters fighter, is outclassed by the Heavy. The only thing the Pyro has over the Heavy is the airblast and some speed, which the GRU and Heavy's 300 health make the speed a null point. A soldier or demoman is way more useful than a Pyro due to their mobility, health, mid range combat and area denial in the case of the demoman. The only reason to go Pyro is to try and reflect a rocket, kill spies, maybe light up a medic or push people off cliffs (which you could already do as solly) 4) The Pyro is not some unstoppable force of nature like you guys think. He can't reflect rockets if they're aimed at his feet or off to the side (he might be able to reflect them away but he's not going to score a kill). If you're going to assume that this hypothetical Pyro can autoreflect any projectile aimed at him then you'll have to assume the Soldier/Demo is not braindead retarded and doesn't just hurr rockets/nades one after another in a predictable pattern but instead tries to get the pyro to reflect first, then fires. You must play against bad Soldiers, because the first thing a Soldier is going to do when up against a Pyro is juke him out. Once he reflects, he's open to fire. So, either shooting one that misses, waiting a tiny bit and shooting another just to mess with the Pyro's timing, switching to shotgun and firing and then switching to the RJ once the Pyro realizes he doesn't have enough health to outshotgun the Soldier (if the Pyro is using the degreaser then not firing once you pull out the RJ is guaranteed to make the Pyro try to reflect in desperation), or just rocket jumping because the pyro can't get a reflect kill on an airborne soldier (if you say you can then either you got a lucky kill once out of some random chance or you're again assuming Jesus jumped on Steam and chose Pyro to play as). All demomen need to do is switch to their sticky launcher because the Pyro cannot reflect a sticky and get a kill unless the demo is so dumb he detonates stickies that are right next to him. And also, the shotgun can out DPS the flamethrower by the time the Pyro closes the distance due to the extra health of the Soldier, and the Pyro can't reflect bullets. So, how does the ability to jump up to a platform, or get to the frontlines quicker, make the Pyro overpowered? It doesn't affect his combat at all and only allows him to take alternate routes or reach medkits, and maybe get to mid faster. In fact, this advanced mobility would make the Pyro a more usable choice. All you're saying is it's overpowered cause it creeps on soldier territory, but you haven't stated why that's a bad thing other than it doesn't fit Valve's original intention (and honestly Valve's changed their original intentions so many times, hell just look at the Mann Co. store or the item drop system, as well as item sets, various flawed weapons like Natascha, Sandman, Tomislav etc.)

Psychopath I wish I had the time to rate every single one of your posts winner. I'll weigh in on this fairly quickly - we can probably agree that the Detonator is underpowered relative to the Flare Gun right now, which will be changed at some point. I am 100% in favor of a flare jump - Pyro is my least-played class for a very good reason, Heavy's almost always better and everything counters fire. I never really messed around with it too much in Beta but it seems like a damaging jump, at the very least, can't hurt.

@ Leafrunner. You sounds like a massive Valve Hammer Legion Member. Praising everything they do, and praying to your Gaben alter every day, just like a nice little boy. I love Valve too, but they certainly aren't perfect, neither is their balancing. If their balancing is as perfect as you imply, then why the hell is the Equalizer after several nerfs, still massively OP? "Silly Benvil! The Equalizer got massive drawbacks! It blocks healing when active! Zomg!" Oh noes! I'm at this time unable to find the Q button on my keyboard! Now I can't change weapon to be healed! Wake up, the class specific abilities is long gone. Pyro must apparently never have a horrible version of Soldiers mobility, yet there is no problem in giving Soldier all the Scout specifics? Soldiers running in Scout speed, and Soldiers/Demomen capping in double speed? Yup, all balanced! Nothing wrong with this! While we are at it, we should add double jumping to the Man Treads and Ali Baba's Wee Booties!

The only Pyro that has reason to complain is Vanilla pyro. Sure he has airblast, but that's it. Pyros with unlocks have it great, just like Spies with unlocks. Vanilla wise, those classes are awful, but they have unlocks that make them incredibly powerful. For pyro it's axtinguisher and degreaserm for Spy it's the Dead Ringer.

I said this on SPUF and I'll repeat here: I'm not really pissed at the Detonator nerf rather than at the approach the TF2 devs have towards the beta players. We test the weapons, we share our feedback, we don't get any feedback from them, then they update the game according to their undisclosed reasons. It happened with Natascha, then with the Demo swords and now with the Detonator: [b]if it didn't work as intended in beta at least WHY didn't let us know before shipping it?![/b] I'm done with testing weapons and write long essays about my impressions. As I see it, playing the beta now is a general waste of time. [QUOTE=PSI Guy;30789264]The only Pyro that has reason to complain is Vanilla pyro. Sure he has airblast, but that's it. Pyros with unlocks have it great, just like Spies with unlocks. Vanilla wise, those classes are awful, but they have unlocks that make them incredibly powerful. For pyro it's axtinguisher and degreaserm for Spy it's the Dead Ringer.[/QUOTE] The DR at least promotes a different style of play, kinda like the Gunslinger or the Close Combat Kit. The Degreaser+Axtinguisher combo is just a OP crutch, it just eases what one can do with Flamethrower+Fireaxe.

It just needs bigger splash damage, slightly slower projectile speed and the ability to light up more than one player at a time. I'm fine with not having a flare jump, it's not entirely necessary. it needs to visibly explode as well, it just looks like the normal flare collision.

I crafted this in the hopes of being able to flarejump. I don't even have a flare gun to go back to now. [QUOTE=Flyingman356;30797637]It just needs bigger splash damage, slightly slower projectile speed and the ability to light up more than one player at a time. I'm fine with not having a flare jump, it's not entirely necessary.[/QUOTE] This at least would make it worth using.

[QUOTE=Leaf Runner;30783708]Congratualtions, you pulled four random situations out of your ass with no regard to practical purposes the detonator has. You people are just convincing yourselves that the detonator is completely awful with no practical use so you can feel right about being so outrageously angry.[/QUOTE] You have no reading comprehension at all. Those four situations weren't made up by me, these four situations were brought up by Spybreak in the following post. [QUOTE=Spybreak;30777022]LOL WHAT [b]Stickybombs flying right at my head? NO problem, I'll just bounce em back with - Aw, crap they blew up.[/b] [b]Rockets flying right at my feet? NO problem, I'll just reflect and miss and OH CRAP, SHOTGUN[/b] [b]Grenades rolling at my legs? NO problem, I'll just scoot em on back with - DARN IT, they blew me up even though they turned red![/b] [b]Primary weapon has no effect outside of melee range? RIGHTY-O, I'll just airblast my enemy into that wall there and- OHHH, HE'S OUTSIDE MY RANGE and now I'm directly in a crowd of his teammates...[/b] [IMG]http://i56.tinypic.com/14wtyrb.png[/IMG] Puff N Sting is now the answer to the universe.[/QUOTE] In the post you quoted, you saw my rebuttal to each of the four situations Spybreak brought up. Each rebuttal mentioned that a Pyro with a Detonator (with intact Flare Jump) has no effect on changing the eventual outcome of the situation. If you actually attempted to read [b]any[/b] of my posts on this topic you would have seen that I agree that this entire thread is a worthless circle-jerk of Pyro bitching. Instead, you chose not to use a concept taught by 5th grade English teachers called 'context clues' or 'reading comprehension'. Instead you picked an argument with someone who was actually also defending Pyro's lack of Flare Jump. You do realize this makes you look like a complete and utter idiot at this point, right? [editline]30th June 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Psychopath12;30787197]I'm just going to point something out: [b]Rocketjumping was an unintentional side-effect of explosive knockback way back in the original Quake[/b]. The developers didn't design their maps or weapons around the ability to do that, but players loved it and it was fun. The developers embraced it because both themselves and the players enjoyed it. Was it overpowered in its first iteration? Considering that [b]it still had the power of a rocketlauncher[/b], it was a little overpowered. The developers tweaked balance accordingly [i]without axing its existence because it was unintended[/i].[/QUOTE] This isn't Quake and the developers of Quake do not work at Valve. Let me give you another example. In Super Smash Bros Melee, 'wave dashing' was the unintentional side-effect of air dodging at an angle directly into stage. Upon making contact with the stage, the character would resume a standing animation, and continue to move with the horizontal momentum given by the diagonal direction that the air dodge granted the character. Wave dashing promoted an extremely quick and detailed level of play. Instead of relying on rolling, done by shielding and holding left or right, players could wave dash to and away from opponents, giving them fluid movement, even during attack animations that would normally require the character to stand still. Complex mind games resulted from wave dashing as well. A player using Captain Falcon can attempt to dash straight for a player using Marth. The opponent using Marth would then begin his Forward Smash attack, just as the player using Captain Falcon predicted. Captain Falcon wave dashes away as he approaches Marth's range, making the Forward Smash attack miss, then wave dashes towards Marth while beginning a grab animation. From the grab, Captain Falcon can begin to combo Marth. Needless to say, Masahiro Sakurai, the head developer of Super Smash Bros games didn't like this. Directional air dodging, required for wave dashing, was completely removed in Super Smash Bros Brawl. In addition, he also felt Super Smash Bros isn't meant to be a serious game, but a party game. He then chose to add tripping instead, where at random points when moving on the stage, the character would just trip and momentarily be open to assault from other players. Different developers approach unintended programming oversights differently. In many cases, it isn't even a case of whether the programming oversight is unbalanced. In the case of wavedashing, it wasn't unbalanced. Every character could wavedash to various lengths, Luigi being able to wavedash the furthest because he had the least traction. Valve doesn't want Pyro to have the Flare Jump. Deal with it. They didn't design the Pyro to have an advanced jump ability and because of that the Detonator doesn't have the Flare Jump. Again, like I've repeated many times before. It's not a matter of whether it was overpowered, it's that this isn't the way Valve designed Pyro to play. Because of that you don't have the Flare Jump. Pyro is more likely to receive advanced mobility from a future update by air blasting the ground than he is to get advanced mobility from a single sidegrade. Valve is consistent with advanced mobility. Soldier is able to rocket jump regardless of loadout, just as Pyro is able to airblast regardless of loadout. Demoman is able to sticky jump with any sticky launcher, but if a player chooses to take a shield item instead, they trade self-damaging sticky jump mobility for non self-damaging charge mobility.

Increase the flare-jump height enough to make jumping up one container in Granary consistently possible. Maybe increase the blast radius a bit as well. There we go, all done, Detonator is great now.

[QUOTE=Flyingman356;30797637]It just needs bigger splash damage, slightly slower projectile speed and the ability to light up more than one player at a time. I'm fine with not having a flare jump, it's not entirely necessary. it needs to visibly explode as well, it just looks like the normal flare collision.[/QUOTE] That shouldn't be. In the Beta it had the generic explosion that came from stuff like stickies and rockets. Boy, they really cocked this up.

This really does sadden me, and I'm saddened by the TF2 developer's decisions now. I though you were supposed to embrace your community Valve, wasn't that what the contribute page was for?

I always used the Shotgun in all the 4 classes, so I'm not that sad. This post was completely useless and unnecessary. Did I even type that correctly?

[QUOTE=COSTA;30823281]I always used the Shotgun in all the 4 classes, so I'm not that sad. This post was completely useless and unnecessary. Did I even type that correctly?[/QUOTE] Same, but I weep for the pyro.

I favour the Shotgun too, but I certainly wouldn't mind have the option to Detonator Jump. It could be very useful for many maps.

I'm glad flare jumping didn't transfer. Thanks for confirming this Z4.

I've been using the Detonator in the Beta. It's still in its pre-nerfed state. Anyone up for a FP Beta Pyro match?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKss2uYpih8&feature=related[/media]

I'll just use my Strange Shotgun then. I hope they give the Detonator some sort of buff though, right now its just got odd stats. Why it has self damage when it has a shitty knockback effect is beyond me.

[QUOTE=MrCasual;30845122]I'll just use my Strange Shotgun then. I hope they give the Detonator some sort of buff though, right now its just got odd stats. Why it has self damage when it has a shitty knockback effect is beyond me.[/QUOTE] Like I said, boost the jump distance a bit to make jumps more consistently doable and it'll be fine Hell even right now it's nowhere near as useless as you guys keep making it out to be

I think flying Pyros would've been a pretty badass feature if he can only do it about twice from full health. But i can't do anything so I'll leave it to the rest of FP to repent against Valve so we can have Flying Pyros, Flyros, or, hell, perhaps society will advance enough from our resistance that FLYBROS (Pyros that jump up to an engineer's encampment to help out with sappers/spies) may flourish!

Am I the only person here who likes the Detonator just for the ability to ignite multiple people and ignite them around corners, not to mention have a higher chance of hitting airborne enemies?

Flying Pyros were OP. Pyros were meant to be UP.

Pyro needs a buff. Okay, Degreaser is a pretty powerful unlock already, but Pyro is a short range class afterall. He lacks movement. He can't get close up on some maps. Please Valve, use the old Detonator Stats: +20% more explosive damage and a higher Flarejump. This way, a Midair Direct Hit-rocket is almost instantkill.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;30874171]Pyros were meant to be UP.[/QUOTE] This is downright stupid, no class is meant to be plainly superior to any other

[QUOTE=Jorori;30874285]This is downright stupid, no class is meant to be plainly superior to any other[/QUOTE] It was a joke, as Pyros were always UP in SUF terms. I don't think he is either.

Pyro just has an obsession with flying. It enjoys sending other people into the air and wishes it could do the same. The detonator, with its crude tampering with the flaregun, shows that the pyro just wanted to fly, same as it could make all the other classes do. MEET THE PYRO STORYLINE CONFIRMED

Valve lets pyro have a jetpack too.

[QUOTE=Suttles;30876404]Valve lets pyro have a jetpack too.[/QUOTE] MEET THE PYRO MARK II UPDATE: THE FLYING PYRO. Itd make sense cause apparently theres a pack floating around that valve's supposedly using with the flamethrower based primarily on airblasting. IF ITS RIGHT YOU ALL OWE ME TEN DOLLARS

[QUOTE=papaya;30879474]IF ITS RIGHT YOU ALL OWE ME TEN DOLLARS[/QUOTE] I owe you nothing :tinfoil:

This thread bothers me greatly.