[QUOTE=1 Duck;30767598]It my honest opinion I do not see a great problem with the Tomislav, if I play heavy I use the regular minigun and win against Tomislav wielding Heavy's all the time, this is probably because I play Heavy all the time and know what I am doing. I like to suprise people in arena etc, the spin up time of the regular minigun is no problem to me as I usually jump and spin in mid air. Quicker fire speed compared to Tomislav makes it balanced. However, when playing other classes it's not so easy to kill the heavy, close range is a no go so the best choice is projectiles or bullets. I haven't actually used the Tomislav, but I can see I'll be sticking with the regular. That's my opinion anyway.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that there's almost no spin-up time. Not a greatly reduced spin-up time, like '-70%' would have you believe, but almost none. In my previously mentioned fight with a Tomislav Heavy, he had already been ambushed by my sentry once, and knew it was there. The previous time I got him with that sentry, I ambushed him as he tried to duck into the small side area my sentry was in, and was able to start shooting him before he could even spin-up. He was able to spin-up and shoot nearly instantly, killing me quickly and only barely failing to kill my sentry - which was level one at the time, but he also wasn't that great of a Heavy, so.
The thing's [i]too[/i] fast, it seems almost broken. It needs a nerf somewhere, not a big one, or a fix if it actually is broken.
[QUOTE=Lijitsu;30767861]The problem is that there's almost no spin-up time. Not a greatly reduced spin-up time, like '-70%' would have you believe, but almost none. In my previously mentioned fight with a Tomislav Heavy, he had already been ambushed by my sentry once, and knew it was there. The previous time I got him with that sentry, I ambushed him as he tried to duck into the small side area my sentry was in, and was able to start shooting him before he could even spin-up. He was able to spin-up and shoot nearly instantly, killing me quickly and only barely failing to kill my sentry - which was level one at the time, but he also wasn't that great of a Heavy, so.
The thing's [i]too[/i] fast, it seems almost broken. It needs a nerf somewhere, not a big one, or a fix if it actually is broken.[/QUOTE]
It seems to be for new players, would that be fair to say then? The gun should remain silent and have a quick deploy speed but have a further decrease in bullet speed. Giving him less health for example won't really effect him much. Less ammo would be a pain but easily overcome. No random crits may have an effect but with the fast deploy speed you don't need crits unless up against an army. Valve will do something, will just have to wait and see.
I say take the idea someone else had thought up and give them less 'bullet' per bullet. Miniguns shoot off four per bullet, so let the Tommy shoot off one or two per bullet. Makes sense, no? Now Tommy Heavies can still be the quick draws and do some damage, but don't carry that raw output like a true Heavy. Good for mid-line defense/offense, can still defend themselves if they can aim properly, etc etc
But then again, I'm just one person. v:v:v
If you are using the Tomislav like a regular minigun, you are using it wrong.
Take the Tomislav and head down the side routes. The fat combat classes (heavy, soldier, and demoman) generally don't go down those paths because they are longer that the alternatives and the corners allow them to be kited. Plus, explosive classes hate close quarters combat. You will be facing lots of pyros, scouts, and noncombat classes trying to get into flanking positions. The Tomislav will make short work of them. Even if you run into the occasional soldier/demo, there is a high chance that you will meet face to face, where your massive DPS will kill them quick.
So yeah, it is OP.
[QUOTE=Vaught;30768038]I say take the idea someone else had thought up and give them less 'bullet' per bullet. Miniguns shoot off four per bullet, so let the Tommy shoot off one or two per bullet. Makes sense, no? Now Tommy Heavies can still be the quick draws and do some damage, but don't carry that raw output like a true Heavy. Good for mid-line defense/offense, can still defend themselves if they can aim properly, etc etc
But then again, I'm just one person. v:v:v[/QUOTE]
But isn't the downside of the Tomislav that it shoots slower? Meaning less 'bullet' per bullet anyway?
[editline]28th June 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Regularjoe;30768059]If you are using the Tomislav like a regular minigun, you are using it wrong.
Take the Tomislav and head down the side routes. The fat combat classes (heavy, soldier, and demoman) generally don't go down those paths because they are longer that the alternatives and the corners allow them to be kited. Plus, explosive classes hate close quarters combat. You will be facing lots of pyros, scouts, and noncombat classes trying to get into flanking positions. The Tomislav will make short work of them. Even if you run into the occasional soldier/demo, there is a high chance that you will meet face to face, where your massive DPS will kill them quick.
So yeah, it is OP.[/QUOTE]
I do that as a heavy anyway, when teamed with a medic and have the running gloves of urgency equipped. Especially on arena.
Someone has a demo jihad script, would be fun to use in medieval.
[QUOTE=1 Duck;30768074]But isn't the downside of the Tomislav that it shoots slower? Meaning less 'bullet' per bullet anyway?
[/QUOTE]
No, it still spews the four 'bullets' per bullet, meaning you still get the same damage, but slower rate, which creates a slower DPS overall. But the way that thing fires, the slower fire rate is almost negligible. The only time it'd be really noticeable is when taking on sentries. You can't gun them down fast enough due to your slower fire rate.
To me it sounds like Pyro has literally become a dedicated Spy checker/sentry babysitter. The Tomislav/Sandvich/GRU loadout for Heavy just seems waaaay too damn powerful and it paves over almost all of his class-defining flaws.
[QUOTE=MasterG;30767917]Prepare your anus, Medieval mode. [h2]DEMONINJAS ARE COMING TO TOWN[/h2][/QUOTE]
Shhhh! Don't give Valve any more ideas! The last thing we need are silent Demoknights with katanas!
[QUOTE=1 Duck;30767972]It seems to be for new players, would that be fair to say then? The gun should remain silent and have a quick deploy speed but have a further decrease in bullet speed. Giving him less health for example won't really effect him much. Less ammo would be a pain but easily overcome. No random crits may have an effect but with the fast deploy speed you don't need crits unless up against an army. Valve will do something, will just have to wait and see.[/QUOTE]
I agree its main features - fast and silent spin-up - shouldn't be really changed, but it does need some tweaks. A slight damage nerf - either a straight damage cut or the previously mentioned 'less bullets per bullet' nerf - and/or slight spin-up speed nerf would probably be enough, but as it is it's reminiscent of the old Natascha. Not much fun to play against and in need of another look. I just hope it doesn't take them as long to tweak the Tomislav as they took to tweak Natascha.
I think the Tomislav should carry a 10% or more (not sure on the math) bullet damage vulnerability on wearer. That way Heavies can actually compete against Tomislav users while the speed of the Tomislav still has use against other classes.
[QUOTE=SleepyAl;30768770]I think the Tomislav should carry a 10% or more (not sure on the math) bullet damage vulnerability on wearer. That way Heavies can actually compete against Tomislav users while the speed of the Tomislav still has use against other classes.[/QUOTE]
He should just have -50HP with the Tomislav.
[QUOTE=SirKai;30768796]He should just have -50HP with the Tomislav.[/QUOTE]
While I think the thing can probably use a nerf, health penalties and random vulnerabilities and other completely random effects annoy me. If they're gonna nerf the gun, nerf the gun- don't add random stats that don't even feel attached to the weapon.
Honestly all this Tomislav talk continues to speak to the ridiculous buffing of the Heavy as a class.
When I first bought the game, the Heavy was hard to use but effective if you could pull it off, Pyros were the kings of close combat (perhaps slightly unfairly so), and Demomen and Soldiers ruled as the main combat classes, keeping the upside of damage with the downsides of reloading / ammo management close.
Now, the Heavy is the clear choice for any push, Ubercharged or not. Heavies win games. This is not something you can really debate anymore. I think that a nerf to spin-up time / moving speed needs to be pushed through, as it's obvious anymore that Valve isn't going to balance his secondary / melee slots away from the Sandvich / GRU / FoS. Pre-buff Heavies with the new general weapon buffs might save the game from total Heavy domination.
I basically am in a state of fear using any other minigun as a Heavy, because if im not using the Tomislav, the enemy heavy basically wins most of the time.
[QUOTE=SirKai;30768516]To me it sounds like Pyro has literally become a dedicated Spy checker/sentry babysitter. The Tomislav/Sandvich/GRU loadout for Heavy just seems waaaay too damn powerful and it paves over almost all of his class-defining flaws.[/QUOTE]
I love this post. It is so incredibly correct.
Iron Curtain is still my love.
[QUOTE=Yukinari;30769554]I basically am in a state of fear using any other minigun as a Heavy, because if im not using the Tomislav, the enemy heavy basically wins most of the time.[/QUOTE]
I like my Brass Beast with the Set effect on it and i do just fine as long as i have my barrel is spinning.
[QUOTE=psyke;30759380]"hey guys lets fix the planeswalker goggles glitch"
"should we also make them paintable?"
"NAWWH"[/QUOTE]
They fixed that because I e-mailed Robin about it. Otherwise they probably wouldn't have noticed it anytime soon.
But yeah, they should be paintable.
[QUOTE=mutated;30769408]Honestly all this Tomislav talk continues to speak to the ridiculous buffing of the Heavy as a class.
When I first bought the game, the Heavy was hard to use but effective if you could pull it off, Pyros were the kings of close combat (perhaps slightly unfairly so), and Demomen and Soldiers ruled as the main combat classes, keeping the upside of damage with the downsides of reloading / ammo management close.
Now, the Heavy is the clear choice for any push, Ubercharged or not. Heavies win games. This is not something you can really debate anymore. I think that a nerf to spin-up time / moving speed needs to be pushed through, as it's obvious anymore that Valve isn't going to balance his secondary / melee slots away from the Sandvich / GRU / FoS. Pre-buff Heavies with the new general weapon buffs might save the game from total Heavy domination.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, the Heavy is too damn powerful these days, and it doesn't help that these days even a monkey could play as him.
I see newbie players going Heavy and it leads to team of 5 or 6 heavies, which no matter how coordinated or skilled your team, is basically impossible to defeat.
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