How do you think Valve could "Fix" afterburn for Pyro? - Games

As someone who plays Spy a lot, afterburn is actually one of my biggest threats, if i get hit for more than a second with their flames the afterburn can kill me.

Do you have any idea how annoying afterburn is whilst trying to scope as a Sniper? :v:

I guess all the previous posts give an obvious conclusion. While most classe are slowly coming out of their niches, pyro is still useful, but just as situational as he/she's always been.

[QUOTE=Pie_Tony;31406298]well we're half way there with the cow mangler.[/QUOTE] At the same time, we might as well scrap the Pyro and Spy classes. They're really hard to balance and they're pretty much pointless now that Soldier does both classes' specialties with his Rocket Launcher now.[/sarcasm] The heart of the problem lies in Valve's lack of foresight into what the game would be today. If Team Fortress 3 would be designed today many things would be changed in the transition. Valve didn't realize that several item updates later afterburn would be passively nerfed. It's not like they can, or should for that matter, reverse these item updates by removing their effects. I don't want them to remove Jarate or Mad Milk or other items just so Pyro's afterburn would be as dangerous as it used to be. Fixing "afterburn" doesn't necessarily fix the Pyro either. Pyro's in a multitude of messes. Things I think should happen for Pyro's sake whenever the game is completely rebalanced/remade include the following. 1) Pyro should gain a new "Gas Tank" slot. It would be a gadget slot which both changes the appearance of the Pyro's back mounted air tank and would change the function of Pyro's flamer Alt-Fire. a) Standard Gas Tank - Grants compression blast, On Use: 25 Ammo cost. b) Jetpack Tank - Grants a Half-Rocket Jump height hop, On Use: 50 Ammo cost. Can be used regardless of current weapon or used in mid-air. c) Oil Slick Tank - Grants spilled oil traps which can be ignited, On Use: 5 Ammo (Can be held down). Think of the Advanced Weaponizer Greek Fire flamer ability. And many more. This gas tank slot would also have weapon bonuses related to it. Backburner would then have a penalty of gas tank ability ammo costs increased by 100% or something. 2) Integrate blitz melee play style with the Pyro, and remove Demoman's role of blitz melee. Charging Demoknights should not exist. Valve, in the process of trying to create new weapons for the Demoman in the war update thought of giving him a sword and shield to reflect his Scottish roots. The sword and shield changed the playstyle of Demoman completely. Demoman, a class designed for defense through the use of sticky bomb traps and for destroying heavily congested areas of buildings or enemies now became a Blitz Melee class. The two play styles don't mix at all and in fact, blitz melee is a role much more suitable to Pyro than Demoman. Pyro, for one, is an offense class. Secondly, he's a close-range quarters class so the use of melee is common for him. This doesn't mean Demoman should lose his shields and swords or whatever in a rebalance. The effects of the shield by granting Demoman resistance to damage makes sense for his class. A Demoman with resistance to some kinds of damage will last longer to hold out a defense. The shield's ability, which is charging, is irrelevant to Demoman's role though. Blitz Melee offense is not defensive at all. The charge ability should be integrated into one of Pyro's optional tanks. Because Demoman is losing out on a key ingredient in his shield, the shields should all be rebalanced and given some new kind of ability. Perhaps the ability parry (block) melee attacks or to be held up in a shielding stance to further absorb damage (like the Fists of Steel, but without the ability to attack). The balancing of this would be very difficult. Fists of Steel was already OP and still is a very good sidegrade, so making shields to be even more hyper-defensive might make Demoman more overpowered, but in a different aspect. Like I said earlier, depending on the stats, Demoman could be the new Fists of Steel Heavy on the block. 3) Make flare guns useful. A 1-clip projectile weapon is not balanced to be a sidegrade for a 6-clip hitscan shotgun. It doesn't matter if it can light multiple people on fire or if it can mini-crit or full-crit on burning targets. In ~80% of the cases, it's more useful for the Pyro to carry the shotgun. They could make the flare gun hold more than just 1 flare, I dunno. For the time being, flare guns are still mostly very situational sidegrades. 4) Rebalance Spy so that he's not gimped after a Pyro buff. As you can see, TF2 class balance is so completely intertwined that attempting to fix one class would involve changing several other classes too.

You make a lot of posts about pyro.

shorter cone of fire, higher damage afterburn is fine w+m1 useless, pyro fixed.

Just use the pyro at the right time. Pyro fixed.

[QUOTE=Scarabix;31408864]Just use the pyro at the right time. Pyro fixed.[/QUOTE] Are you like, from 4chan or SPUF?

They should make the flames like TFC (which also has similar player flames to Minecraft). Basically if you're running forwards, your vision is sort of okay. But if you try and run backwards, you get giant yellow spikes in your face that make it impossible to see. I wish they'd add the hallucination grenades back into TF2 in some form, they were so cool. [editline]29th July 2011[/editline] Pyros were hilariously underpowered in TFC, good times. Be thankful you can actually kill people with him now.

[QUOTE=Bryceanater;31408934]Are you like, from 4chan or SPUF?[/QUOTE] What? No. But in TF2 some classes have always been best in some situations. I don't think the problem with the pyro is this bad, is it?

[QUOTE=HyperTails;31406413]It doesn't need to be fixed[/QUOTE] I'm with Hyper one this one, its fine as is. I play Pryo a good bit, and if you're coming from the angle that it needs more damage, I'm inclined to disagree. Relying on afterburn to kill your target is a terrible idea in most situations unless its a an enemy who's already at low health, or you just lay into a scout. Its easier to just whip out the Flare Gun or Shotgun and take them out as they run, or to just whap them with the Postal Pummeler or the Axstinguisher From the flip side of the argument, however afterburn can be a pain I admit. I mean we've all been in the situation where we die on the healthpack from afterburn. Yeah, its easy to get rid of, but I don't think it needs to be increased in time or damage. If you're all alone and a pyro gets the drop on you, you're hard pressed to get to a health pack before you drop dead from burns. Bleeding's another story however. It hurts alot, but being that only 3 classes have weapons that cause it, and the Sniper the one you'll run into most, its rather a small worry.

make it do 6 dps over 10 seconds then it's perfect right there

[QUOTE=Scarabix;31409050]What? No. [/QUOTE] From the emporium [QUOTE=Scarabix;31406461]Sorry, what's up with it? I was on spuf...[/QUOTE] :v: On topic, personally I think that afterburn should last longer or do more damage.

I have to disagree with joey on flare guns, they're awesome. I can light a whole team on fire on harvest.

How about remove the 800 billion ways to get rid of it.

Pyros who still think afterburn can be relied on for kills are dumb. You should be using puff-n-sting with the degreaser a lot of the time. If you're using the FT or BB over the degreaser, you KNOW you're gimping yourself, so you don't really get to complain.

[QUOTE=Erfly;31409194]From the emporium :v: On topic, personally I think that afterburn should last longer or do more damage.[/QUOTE] Ok, your point. But I didn't consider myself part of the general spuf *****tery. I was not the typical "omfg pyro is up I hate cowmangler" user.

[QUOTE=Sneakman!*;31409313]You should be using puff-n-sting with the degreaser a lot of the time.[/QUOTE] ha HA about 90% of the time when a pyro tries to axtinguish you, in the time it took him them kill you with it he could have held down attack and killed you. The axtinguisher is just a really big nuisance.

[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;31408480]At the same time, we might as well scrap the Pyro and Spy classes. They're really hard to balance and they're pretty much pointless now that Soldier does both classes' specialties with his Rocket Launcher now.[/sarcasm] The heart of the problem lies in Valve's lack of foresight into what the game would be today. If Team Fortress 3 would be designed today many things would be changed in the transition. Valve didn't realize that several item updates later afterburn would be passively nerfed. It's not like they can, or should for that matter, reverse these item updates by removing their effects. I don't want them to remove Jarate or Mad Milk or other items just so Pyro's afterburn would be as dangerous as it used to be. Fixing "afterburn" doesn't necessarily fix the Pyro either. Pyro's in a multitude of messes. Things I think should happen for Pyro's sake whenever the game is completely rebalanced/remade include the following. 1) Pyro should gain a new "Gas Tank" slot. It would be a gadget slot which both changes the appearance of the Pyro's back mounted air tank and would change the function of Pyro's flamer Alt-Fire. a) Standard Gas Tank - Grants compression blast, On Use: 25 Ammo cost. b) Jetpack Tank - Grants a Half-Rocket Jump height hop, On Use: 50 Ammo cost. Can be used regardless of current weapon or used in mid-air. c) Oil Slick Tank - Grants spilled oil traps which can be ignited, On Use: 5 Ammo (Can be held down). Think of the Advanced Weaponizer Greek Fire flamer ability. And many more. This gas tank slot would also have weapon bonuses related to it. Backburner would then have a penalty of gas tank ability ammo costs increased by 100% or something. 2) Integrate blitz melee play style with the Pyro, and remove Demoman's role of blitz melee. Charging Demoknights should not exist. Valve, in the process of trying to create new weapons for the Demoman in the war update thought of giving him a sword and shield to reflect his Scottish roots. The sword and shield changed the playstyle of Demoman completely. Demoman, a class designed for defense through the use of sticky bomb traps and for destroying heavily congested areas of buildings or enemies now became a Blitz Melee class. The two play styles don't mix at all and in fact, blitz melee is a role much more suitable to Pyro than Demoman. Pyro, for one, is an offense class. Secondly, he's a close-range quarters class so the use of melee is common for him. This doesn't mean Demoman should lose his shields and swords or whatever in a rebalance. The effects of the shield by granting Demoman resistance to damage makes sense for his class. A Demoman with resistance to some kinds of damage will last longer to hold out a defense. The shield's ability, which is charging, is irrelevant to Demoman's role though. Blitz Melee offense is not defensive at all. The charge ability should be integrated into one of Pyro's optional tanks. Because Demoman is losing out on a key ingredient in his shield, the shields should all be rebalanced and given some new kind of ability. Perhaps the ability parry (block) melee attacks or to be held up in a shielding stance to further absorb damage (like the Fists of Steel, but without the ability to attack). The balancing of this would be very difficult. Fists of Steel was already OP and still is a very good sidegrade, so making shields to be even more hyper-defensive might make Demoman more overpowered, but in a different aspect. Like I said earlier, depending on the stats, Demoman could be the new Fists of Steel Heavy on the block. 3) Make flare guns useful. A 1-clip projectile weapon is not balanced to be a sidegrade for a 6-clip hitscan shotgun. It doesn't matter if it can light multiple people on fire or if it can mini-crit or full-crit on burning targets. In ~80% of the cases, it's more useful for the Pyro to carry the shotgun. They could make the flare gun hold more than just 1 flare, I dunno. For the time being, flare guns are still mostly very situational sidegrades. 4) Rebalance Spy so that he's not gimped after a Pyro buff. As you can see, TF2 class balance is so completely intertwined that attempting to fix one class would involve changing several other classes too.[/QUOTE] I like nearly everything you posted except for the note about the Flare Gun. If you have good aim, it's a godsend with those full crits outside of flamethrower range. That and the fact that it reloads without being the active weapon, which is a nice bonus (that the crossbow should really have, but I digress).

Heavy is underpowered, please remove all other classes weapons and increase Heavys damage and health and resistance to bullets.

I think afterburn should do more damage up front and gradually get weaker. Something like for the first two seconds, its like 10 to 12 hp a second and ends up on the last few seconds being 3 hp a second until it finally peters out. Also, I agree with every point Joey JoJo posted. Jetpacks sound like they're out of the question though...and oil trap Pyros will probably be from a new primary only. And yeah, a new shotgun would be awesome. I remember seeing stats somewhere for a shotgun that dealt more damage to players that were extinguished recently, which would make enemy Pyro's think twice about airblasting a group.

[QUOTE=Suttles;31406268]give it to soldier,[/QUOTE] cow mangler. you're welcome.

I think it needs a simple damage boost and maybe less ways to extinguish it. so then pyro can do his old job of " set on fire and retreat ".

I remember a year ago when everyone said pyro was the most overpowered gamebreaking thing ever and that the game was unplayable because of him and it took no skill and the only thing anyone ever did was W+M1. Times change I guess.

[QUOTE=mastermaul;31412733]I remember a year ago when everyone said pyro was the most overpowered gamebreaking thing ever and that the game was unplayable because of him and it took no skill and the only thing anyone ever did was W+M1. Times change I guess.[/QUOTE] I never saw [i]anyone[/i] say he was overpowered and gamebreaking. And I've been playing for a little over two years.

[QUOTE=Lijitsu;31412764]I never saw [i]anyone[/i] say he was overpowered and gamebreaking. And I've been playing for a little over two years.[/QUOTE] The only people I saw who claimed that the Pyro was overpowered were just bad. I switched class on them and destroyed them even harder and they complained even louder. Incompetence doesn't reveal imbalances at anything other than the lowest skill levels where it's bad player vs bad player; the instant you throw a moderate skilled player into the mix, then there's hardly any valid conclusion that you can make from those anecdotes except for a few sparse corner cases.

My god! The idea about gas tanks is f*cking incredible! I wish Valve would implement something like that

Pyros should that aren't using a back burner should just focus on landing an axetinguisher/powerjack hit on him while he has and after burn on him, if your a back burner you should just focus on holding down your M1 button.

[QUOTE='[Z];31413415']My god! The idea about gas tanks is f*cking incredible! I wish Valve would implement something like that[/QUOTE] oh they will...to solder

Did you forget that usually if a Pyro lights you on fire he's going to move in (if he's using a flaregun) and finish you off? The idea is that the Pyro can light you on fire and continue to flame you, and if you kill him he can still finish you off. Also fire burns things. Duh.