How do you think Valve could "Fix" afterburn for Pyro? - Games

Mangler should have a plasma burn effect that lasts way shorter than the Pyro's afterburn and should have a custom particle effect that looks different from fire.

[QUOTE=Radio Yes;31409367]ha HA about 90% of the time when a pyro tries to axtinguish you, in the time it took him them kill you with it he could have held down attack and killed you. The axtinguisher is just a really big nuisance.[/QUOTE] The fact that I read this statement and it WASN'T a joke is pretty sad. Oh... what? People actually rated it agree? lol facepunch. Stay classy.

[QUOTE=Radio Yes;31409367]ha HA about 90% of the time when a pyro tries to axtinguish you, in the time it took him them kill you with it he could have held down attack and killed you. The axtinguisher is just a really big nuisance.[/QUOTE] No, if done properly Puff n Sting w/ Degreaser is a lot faster than just holding down M1, especially on the heavier classes

Thank you Joey JoJo, I've been meaning to say everything that you have but I couldn't just form it into words as well as you have. The only thing I disagree with however, is the part about flares. The flare gun is a sidegrade that trades the Pyro's secondary short-medium range weapon for a medium-long range weapon. I think that the flare gun is fine as is. More relevant, I find I never use the Puff n Sting because I usually run around igniting mobs then running away to repeat.

And also because we obviously want visually noisy afterburn effects, because a flamethrower that not only kills you quite quickly at close range should also blind you with flames all over your screen. Really, it's just as bad as Call of Duty's "splash blood into your eyes so you can know your HP" bullshit.

Are you kidding? Visual effects - bleed and afterburn - that are not explicitly designed to do so should not interfere with the player's ability to control their character. It's the same issue that was inherent in the Sandman's design; player's losing control of their character. I hate the bleed effect. My screen goes on RED ALERT when I'm bleeding.

[QUOTE=NiGHTS88;31415924]Are you kidding? Visual effects - bleed and afterburn - that are not explicitly designed to do so should not interfere with the player's ability to control their character. It's the same issue that was inherent in the Sandman's design; player's losing control of their character. I hate the bleed effect. My screen goes on RED ALERT when I'm bleeding.[/QUOTE] Watch the video in the OP, in the commentary they said they wanted fire effects to be disorienting And what do you mean "was" inherent in the Sandman

Not even the bleed makes sense. Incredibly weak weapons like the shiv, which is made of wood by the way, causes bleeding... and yet an AX or a BUTTERFLY KNIFE doesn't.

[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;31408480]At the same time, we might as well scrap the Pyro and Spy classes. They're really hard to balance and they're pretty much pointless now that Soldier does both classes' specialties with his Rocket Launcher now.[/sarcasm] The heart of the problem lies in Valve's lack of foresight into what the game would be today. If Team Fortress 3 would be designed today many things would be changed in the transition. Valve didn't realize that several item updates later afterburn would be passively nerfed. It's not like they can, or should for that matter, reverse these item updates by removing their effects. I don't want them to remove Jarate or Mad Milk or other items just so Pyro's afterburn would be as dangerous as it used to be. Fixing "afterburn" doesn't necessarily fix the Pyro either. Pyro's in a multitude of messes. Things I think should happen for Pyro's sake whenever the game is completely rebalanced/remade include the following. 1) Pyro should gain a new "Gas Tank" slot. 2) Integrate blitz melee play style with the Pyro, and remove Demoman's role of blitz melee. Charging Demoknights should not exist. Valve, in the process of trying to create new weapons for the Demoman in the war update thought of giving him a sword and shield to reflect his Scottish roots. The sword and shield changed the playstyle of Demoman completely. Demoman, a class designed for defense through the use of sticky bomb traps and for destroying heavily congested areas of buildings or enemies now became a Blitz Melee class. The two play styles don't mix at all and in fact, blitz melee is a role much more suitable to Pyro than Demoman. Pyro, for one, is an offense class. Secondly, he's a close-range quarters class so the use of melee is common for him. This doesn't mean Demoman should lose his shields and swords or whatever in a rebalance. The effects of the shield by granting Demoman resistance to damage makes sense for his class. A Demoman with resistance to some kinds of damage will last longer to hold out a defense. The shield's ability, which is charging, is irrelevant to Demoman's role though. Blitz Melee offense is not defensive at all. The charge ability should be integrated into one of Pyro's optional tanks. Because Demoman is losing out on a key ingredient in his shield, the shields should all be rebalanced and given some new kind of ability. Perhaps the ability parry (block) melee attacks or to be held up in a shielding stance to further absorb damage (like the Fists of Steel, but without the ability to attack). The balancing of this would be very difficult. Fists of Steel was already OP and still is a very good sidegrade, so making shields to be even more hyper-defensive might make Demoman more overpowered, but in a different aspect. Like I said earlier, depending on the stats, Demoman could be the new Fists of Steel Heavy on the block. 3) Make flare guns useful. A 1-clip projectile weapon is not balanced to be a sidegrade for a 6-clip hitscan shotgun. It doesn't matter if it can light multiple people on fire or if it can mini-crit or full-crit on burning targets. In ~80% of the cases, it's more useful for the Pyro to carry the shotgun. They could make the flare gun hold more than just 1 flare, I dunno. For the time being, flare guns are still mostly very situational sidegrades. 4) Rebalance Spy so that he's not gimped after a Pyro buff. As you can see, TF2 class balance is so completely intertwined that attempting to fix one class would involve changing several other classes too.[/QUOTE] Honestly, I see plenty of problems with these suggestions (other than the gas tank slot, I think that's very interesting). 1) You can't completely remove the DemoKnight now. Tons of players have the weapons either bought or traded for, and enjoy the aspects of the shield charge. Completely and radically changing this style of play, which he has a ton of weapons for, is insane. You're right, it's kinda stupid that the Demoman was chosen over the Pyro as the blitz melee class, but it's monday morning quarterbacking at this stage and you can't upset tons of players just because the Pyro needs a bit of love. Right now the Demoman is kinda balanced (arguably), and having to redesign the booties, two shields, claymore, skullcutter, persuader and eyelander is just unneccesary and asinine. The only reason the Demoknight works well is because of the charge due to the critical hits and easy catch-up over distances, and without the charge the class is weak. Parrying only works if you're melee fighting somebody else, so unless you're fighting another Knight, a Pyro or some idiot who draws a bat you're easy pickings. You might as well just use the GL or SL and completely ignore melee. I think it'd be cool if the Pyro could be turned into some other form of playstyle like Valve did to the Demo, like maybe an alternative to DemoKnight, but removing the DemoKnight and making a PyroKnight isn't the answer. 2) The flaregun is fine now. You trade short distance power for long distance power. Sure, Scouts and Pyros become much harder to deal with, but 2 hits with the flaregun is 30 dmg + the 90 dmg crit, and then the 60 dmg afterburn which may or may not last, but you can still harass players from afar and it's a perfect sidegrade. It's great for kiling heavies at mid-long distance, perfect for detering snipers if you catch them by surprise, and great for killing players who try to run away, especially equalizer soldiers. Mix the flaregun with the axstinguisher and you can light someone up before they get close and then axe them when they get into range (great for charging demoknights if you can hit them with the axe before they hit you with a bit of timing). 3) Spy is fine now, and in fact he might have a bit too much reign over Pyros now that he has the enforcer. The Spy, who was originally supposed to be fucked when he got caught by a pyro, can now hold his own in a fight if he doesn't get too close or get caught in a corner. I don't think he'll ever need a buff at this point, he already has a get out of jail free card with the DR and if he stays out of sight he can pull off plenty of stabs with the ER. He's got plenty of ways to play and his balance right now is perfect compared to other classes. [QUOTE=MrCasual;31406245]I just watched this and it made me realize how terrible afterburn is now. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUqjlx4Qks[/media] Do you think it should be harder to get rid of? Do more damage? More visually noisy? Or do you think Valve should make a brand new flamethrower thats based solely on afterburn? They said that afterburn was "devastating," but they clearly went against that with Soldier's laser rocket's charge ability. I suppose they could give Pyro an axe that deals bleeding damage but honestly, I don't want another freaking melee weapon. I want a new god damned Flamethrower. /rant[/QUOTE] Afterburn, while it may have plenty of ways to be exstinguished, is still as annoying as ever, and it shouldn't be a death sentence when you get caught. In the original TF2 when Pyro was a joke class because of how underpowered he was afterburn only did its job if you got a guy alone or away from a medkit, and now the only thing that really changed is that 2 classes have a one time per minute saving grace. You only get one jar of fluid, so if you get alight twice you still have to pray you'll find a teammate or medkit. However, bleed is something that I wondered why Valve ever put in. I orginally thought it was meant to be a way to track down spies, but now it just seems like a powerful afterburn. What I'd love to see is if Valve would take that beehive flamethrower somebody made, made it deal bleed damage instead of afterburn, beef the damage/range a bit and remove the airblast's reflection quality to it can only put out fires. It'd make the afterburn more damgerous at the cost of being at the mercy of projectile classes at mid-long range. Honestly right now I don't see any glaring balance issues in TF2 besides in some maps. FoS Heavy maybe, but he is seriously fucked if he gets hit with a single melee weapon and unless you're a Spy or an axstinguisher Pyro you shouldn't have any problem killing him. The weapon is great for making escapes and avoiding instant kill headshots but the increased draw time means the heavy is fucked if he gets caught and has to swap to minigun. I think if the swing speed was lowered to be a bit slower than the KGB then it might be balanced. I have a hard time deciding between the GRU or the FoS because they're both great ways to get away and have their ups and downs. But yeah, I don't think TF2 needs any major rebalancing at this point. Does the Pyro need some love? Maybe. But afterburn isn't the answer.

The Fists of Steel have too many drawbacks to be useful in most situations.

[QUOTE=Sneakman!*;31409313]Pyros who still think afterburn can be relied on for kills are dumb. You should be using puff-n-sting with the degreaser a lot of the time. If you're using the FT or BB over the degreaser, you KNOW you're gimping yourself, so you don't really get to complain.[/QUOTE] Excuse me sir, but I still use the Regular flamethrower, I dislike the less afterburn damage attribute and I dislike the backburner because of the airblast penalty, and I use it along the axtinguisher, like I ever did, and as someone said, even with the degreaser the enemy has enough time to kill you

I don't see why people complain about the soldier getting after burn and claiming it's magically better. There's this thing called the flare gun, 2 shots for 120 damage and 60 after burn, no reloading for a long time afterwards, slow projectiles, fear of self damage and you can fire it while on the move popping in and out of cover.

[QUOTE=leonthefox;31418157]Excuse me sir, but I still use the Regular flamethrower, I dislike the less afterburn damage attribute and I dislike the backburner because of the airblast penalty, and I use it along the axtinguisher, like I ever did, and as someone said, even with the degreaser the enemy has enough time to kill you[/QUOTE] lol it's 15 less damage assuming the afterburn isn't put out. If you seriously think the FT is still viable, you're wrong.

[QUOTE=A B.A. Survivor;31416775]The Fists of Steel have too many drawbacks to be useful in most situations.[/QUOTE] the Fists of Steel and the Gloves of Running Urgently are roughly equal in overpowered-ness. not that I don't love running urgently, but they remove the Heavy's biggest weakness, and the Fists only magnify one of his greatest strengths to epic proportions.

By the way, are they EVER going to "Fix" this thing? I know the nerf was intentional, but its stats make very very little sense. [thumb]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/d/d1/Detonator_RED.png[/thumb] Also, can you actually get to high places with this thing, even though its nerfed to high heaven on the exploding force? I'm pretty sure it involves exploding it in mid-air like when it was in its initial stages during the beta though.

[QUOTE=A B.A. Survivor;31416775]The Fists of Steel have too many drawbacks to be useful in most situations.[/QUOTE] FoS + medic makes it a piece of cake to capture objectives.

[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;31408480]3) Make flare guns useful. A 1-clip projectile weapon is not balanced to be a sidegrade for a 6-clip hitscan shotgun. It doesn't matter if it can light multiple people on fire or if it can mini-crit or full-crit on burning targets. In ~80% of the cases, it's more useful for the Pyro to carry the shotgun. They could make the flare gun hold more than just 1 flare, I dunno. For the time being, flare guns are still mostly very situational sidegrades. [/QUOTE] You are reallly underestimating the flare gun [editline]30th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=MrCasual;31421617]By the way, are they EVER going to "Fix" this thing? I know the nerf was intentional, but its stats make very very little sense. [thumb]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/d/d1/Detonator_RED.png[/thumb] Also, can you actually get to high places with this thing, even though its nerfed to high heaven on the exploding force? I'm pretty sure it involves exploding it in mid-air like when it was in its initial stages during the beta though.[/QUOTE] It should do crits on burning targets like the normal flare gun, instead of minicrits. Or to differentiate it from the Flare Gun more, make it still do mini-crits on burning targets, but make it also make the afterburn on a target turn into mini-crit or crit.

"The Troll" / "All of my rage" -Infinite afterburn unless put out -Teeny tiny damage dealt per tick "Oh god fire jesus" -Less afterburn time -Higher damage I want a flamethrower that deals less damage but has the second option.

The Degreaser has got to be the most annoying weapon the Pyro has. Within 5 feet? Axtingquisher. You are dead in less than 2 seconds. Farther than 6 feet? Flaregun/Detonater. You are dead in less than 2 seconds, or 1 second away from dying of afterburn. Sure, Pyro is the "ambush" class, but the Degreaser disables any chance of retaliation. Playing against someone using that set is annoying as heck, and using it feels cheaper than a 40-year old Filipino hooker.

Making afterburn more useful and making afterburn more annoying are separate things, remember that. Long, weak afterburn creates a disconnect between dying and doing the thing that got you killed, which makes the death feel unfair. Short, intense afterburn deals more damage up front meaning the pyro has a better chance at surviving, as well as enhancing the usefulness of strategic elements around putting out fire and causing the "panic" you guys seem to want so much.

[QUOTE=Untouch;31409211]How about remove the 800 billion ways to get rid of it.[/QUOTE] -jump in water -get airblasted -jarate -mad milk -get healed to speed up process. Grow the fuck up.

There is a simple solution to this strife. Stop playing Pyro. Play Demo, Soldier, Heavy. Spam til u win, shit. Let off some Steam. If it feels good, do it.

Giving the on fire effects more noise is a horrible idea, something that blocks a player's view should be more active than simply setting some one on fire.

Bleeding is overkill when it comes to visual effects. I always know when I'm on fire because of the following: The flames on the HUD Losing health fast as fuck Saying "UH, OW, AUGH" or when I'm playing demo: "FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRE I'M BERNIN" I mean seriously, it has its own voice lines for it. It's noticeable enough and CERTAINLY does not need a buff. [editline]30th July 2011[/editline] If anything the Backburner needs to go back to no compression blast. [editline]30th July 2011[/editline] Also seriously you make the worst threads.

[QUOTE=Captain Chalky;31426772]Blocking =//= distracting[/QUOTE]Distractions are a poor way to try to balance things and are far too easily ignored, if the fire on the edges of my screen was waving a couple little flags and offering me free hats I certainly wouldn't give a fuck when I'm more focused at not getting killed by a pyro.

Whats that? You want a melee that causes bleed? Remove the terribly designed Backscratcher and make it bleed, make its focus on accompanying bleed with afterburn. /opinion Also give mad milk a visual effect similar to afterburn. A white tinted jarate on the edges of screen. Afterburn visuals on edge of screen are easy enough to see :/

Give pyro a Flamethrower that instead of airblast, it would shoot a fiery boulder that splashes on any contact, spewing molten shit over nearby enemies.

If you're playing a broken class, you're effectively gimping yourself. Just stop playing Pyro and sell all your Pyro hats :l

I think a neat mechanic they could play with would be fire spreading to other people. Light a couple of people on fire, and when they panic and run back into their team they start spreading the fire to everyone else. This weakens the enemies and forces them to scatter, which was one of the objectives as a pyro when TF2 first came out.

[QUOTE=FKop_Dragon;31453020]I think a neat mechanic they could play with would be fire spreading to other people. Light a couple of people on fire, and when they panic and run back into their team they start spreading the fire to everyone else. This weakens the enemies and forces them to scatter, which was one of the objectives as a pyro when TF2 first came out.[/QUOTE]Too easily used for griefing, failure on part of one player shouldn't set an entire team on fire.