Competitive TF2 Tournament at CommFT - Games

[QUOTE=discodude;31835953]Caber?! Why ban the caber?[/QUOTE] I miss the bad reading system. I guess a box will do.

I'm not a competitive player, but what isn't fun about the caber? What's unbalanced about it?

[QUOTE=discodude;31836033]I'm not a competitive player, but what isn't fun about the caber? What's unbalanced about it?[/QUOTE] "lol I hit ground and enemy dies with me"

It's not fun to watch or play against even if it's fun to play with. It's unbalanced because a demo can sticky jump across the map (comp demos are kinda good at stickyjumping) and instakill a medic, which is VITAL to a team in 6v6.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;31836047]"lol I hit ground and enemy dies with me"[/QUOTE] So ban soldier too? I don't get why the caber is singled out, when there are many weapons that allow this...

[QUOTE=discodude;31836033]I'm not a competitive player, but what isn't fun about the caber? What's unbalanced about it?[/QUOTE]Any weapon (other then the sniper rifle) that can 1-shot any class is unbalanced in 6v6 because being able to take out a scout or a medic in 1 shot can give the other team a massive advantage, more or less what Sneakman!* said.

[QUOTE=Sneakman!*;31836063]It's unbalanced because a demo can sticky jump across the map (comp demos are kinda good at stickyjumping) and instakill a medic, which is VITAL to a team in 6v6.[/QUOTE] OK, I guess I can understand this.

[QUOTE=Sneakman!*;31836063]It's not fun to watch or play against even if it's fun to play with. It's unbalanced because a demo can sticky jump across the map (comp demos are kinda good at stickyjumping) and instakill a medic, which is VITAL to a team in 6v6.[/QUOTE]There's also the fact that, in practice, it's fundamentally better than the Bottle. The only time a Demoman should even be using his melee in the first place is when he's completely out of ammo or someone is close enough to him that he's fucked unless a miracle happens. The Caber can deal enough damage to kill 7 out of 9 classes (self damage is 100). It's absurdly powerful for a last-resort desperation weapon (don't bring the Demoknight into this discussion unless you want to be bombarded with boxes and frogout.gif).

It's also important to note that bans are different based on League and Nations...Europe likes to ban almost everything, NA only bans the really dumb items that make the game boring/less fun, both nations have leagues with no bans or other formats tho...something for everybody of almost any skill level to be had. In general the caber is only really fun for the person using it. But there's definitely a variety of spectrums of "competitive play" everything from: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWrZVybyiU4[/media] to [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FODganUq41I[/media] to [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENruOrM01CQ[/media]

Those were very entertaining videos, thanks for that :v: Also we shouldn't be complaining about the competitive rules, it's their tournament and they make the rules as they please. It's pointless fighting.

[QUOTE=Dreadknoght;31796147]Well, if CommFT would hold a highlander i would totally join (I play a mean spy). But sadly, i am crap at 6v6 so I won't be joining :smile:[/QUOTE] We held a Highlander this spring/early summer actually. Next time :) BTW guys - Registration closes today and we have 53 teams signed up. I am hoping to hit 64 by the end of tonight but we'll see!

[QUOTE=HyperTails;31757438]Hell I know competitive matches where you get banned for wearing hats.[/QUOTE] Please, do tell, I would love to see their rules...

[QUOTE=Chirno;31845372]Please, do tell, I would love to see their rules...[/QUOTE] Already explained but the only leagues where this has only been a rule was for Unusual Hats and its because Spies when they disguise as someone with an unusual hat, their disguise doesn't have the unusual effect, so if an entire team has unusual hats (which isn't uncommon at all, actually) a Spy can't effectively disguise as the enemy as any disguise that would make sense. Also you just get DQ'd, not "banned".

[QUOTE=Ranik;31848643]Already explained but the only leagues where this has only been a rule was for Unusual Hats and its because Spies when they disguise as someone with an unusual hat, their disguise doesn't have the unusual effect, so if an entire team has unusual hats (which isn't uncommon at all, actually) a Spy can't effectively disguise as the enemy as any disguise that would make sense. Also you just get DQ'd, not "banned".[/QUOTE] Community and Self-Made item quality items have the same thing with the Community Sparkle effect.

[QUOTE=Ranik;31848643]Already explained but the only leagues where this has only been a rule was for Unusual Hats and its because Spies when they disguise as someone with an unusual hat, their disguise doesn't have the unusual effect, so if an entire team has unusual hats (which isn't uncommon at all, actually) a Spy can't effectively disguise as the enemy as any disguise that would make sense. Also you just get DQ'd, not "banned".[/QUOTE] I still want to see these match rules... I don't care what the reason for banning a hat was

[QUOTE=Kiq;31835861][b]Point 1:[/b] Spread being enabled would bring a big luck factor into comp play, and, like Prism said, luck is generally not welcome in comp play as skill should trump it. [b]Point 2:[/b] [i]"I can understand why they're disallowed, but I love them so enable them! Omfg comp play is so dumb!!!!"[/i] [b]Point 3:[/b] TF2 is not an easy game, if you are pitched up against someone of equal or greater skill or co-operation than yours. Your experience with F2P players should not be involved in an argument against competitive play as a whole.[/QUOTE] i wasn't saying competitive scene should give up game configs that reduce the luck factor. but imo crits/spread make it more fun game, that's it. lol and i've played a bit longer before the F2P players came around.

[QUOTE=Gekkosan;31850808]i wasn't saying competitive scene should give up game configs that reduce the luck factor. but imo crits/spread make it more fun game, that's it. lol[/QUOTE] Allowing a random number generation to affect gameplay can feel like a punch in the face because it takes away your ability to control it. Consistency makes for a better competition than randomness, this is a truth with all competitive sports, electronic or otherwise. Nascar wouldn't nearly be as competitive if the driver's steering wheels would lock up for a few seconds at random because it might make it "more fun." Control plays a big part in competition. It's just how things play out.

yes, obviously. but as for the entertainment value, it's higher in public servers where you can crit people and stuff. imo anyway. how many of facepunchers even play competitively? probably a handful at most.

[QUOTE=Gekkosan;31853011]yes, obviously. but as for the entertainment value, it's higher in public servers where you can crit people and stuff. imo anyway.[/QUOTE] It's more entertaining and not as cripplingly imbalanced in pubs because of the sheer volume of players, commonly ranging from 18-32 people depending on the server. In a small-player server such as a 6v6, losing someone to a random occurrence has a much larger impact than losing someone when on a large server. The fact that an entire push or defense can hinge on the presence of one or two people makes random occurrences a damn big problem. Knowing that 5cp matches are usually momentum-driven (ie if you win mid, you usually continue to steamroll until the other team can recollect themselves to stop you), random occurences become a huge problem overall instead of just during last point defense or attacking 2nd point. This is a reason why random crits and spread are disabled in comp.

[QUOTE=Gekkosan;31853011]yes, obviously. but as for the entertainment value, it's higher in public servers where you can crit people and stuff. imo anyway. how many of facepunchers even play competitively? probably a handful at most.[/QUOTE] more than you think

[QUOTE=elitestrider;31854000]more than you think[/QUOTE] something tells me few of them post here.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;31853208]This is a reason why random crits and spread are disabled in comp.[/QUOTE] again with the obvious

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;31853208]It's more entertaining and not as cripplingly imbalanced in pubs because of the sheer volume of players, commonly ranging from 18-32 people depending on the server. In a small-player server such as a 6v6, losing someone to a random occurrence has a much larger impact than losing someone when on a large server. The fact that an entire push or defense can hinge on the presence of one or two people makes random occurrences a damn big problem. Knowing that 5cp matches are usually momentum-driven (ie if you win mid, you usually continue to steamroll until the other team can recollect themselves to stop you), random occurences become a huge problem overall instead of just during last point defense or attacking 2nd point. This is a reason why random crits and spread are disabled in comp.[/QUOTE] In other words: Chance has no business in a competitive scene Doesn't stop the source engine from being a wonky fucker in MP games :v:

I've played competitive for some time. Cool schematic for a 6vs6 match, too bad they ban weapons just because they are fun to use and 90% of their community is made of fucking retards and douchebags. And that's why people like me quitted it.

[QUOTE=Piscow Piscow;31861312]I've played competitive for some time. Cool schematic for a 6vs6 match, too bad they ban weapons just because they are fun to use and 90% of their community is made of fucking retards and douchebags. And that's why people like me quitted it.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Piscow Piscow;31861312]fucking retards[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Piscow Piscow;31861312]quitted[/QUOTE] :v: ?

I can understand the uber update weapons being banned, they haven't even all dropped for me yet. [editline]23rd August 2011[/editline] In fact I'm missing some weapons from the even earlier sets too.

[QUOTE=GrahamofCommFT;31757483]Well the issue is that a lot of the weapons aren't A) balanced or B) suitable for the 6v6 environment. There's a decent but not comprehensive thread on SPUF explaining some of the bans I believe. Ah, yes, here it is [url]http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1914754[/url][/QUOTE] -The Boston Basher Aside the glitched jumping mechanism, the only reason this weapon is banned is because it came out mid-season. If they fix the free jump it offers, it'll probably be allowed. Late but.... The fuck. [B][i]THE FUCK.[/i][/B] The extra jump is so fucking tiny and has very limited use, and you guys are considering banning it for that? Fuck that, I can already tell other bullshit reasons for weapon banning. [editline]23rd August 2011[/editline] -The Loch n Load The LnL fires fast, powerful, piercing projectiles at the cost of rollers. Rollers are useful, but the ability to 1hit classes with a projectile weapon from an extreme range is just too much. Furthermore, unlike rockets, pipe explosions have the ability to pierce on contact, hitting multiple enemies much easier. Also unlike rockets, pipes do not suffer from damage drop off. [b]All of these attributes combined makes this weapon very effective at locking down chokepoints, something the demo already excels at. Finally, this was a mid-season unlock, although it has received a fair amount of playtesting already.[/b] It's partly banned for something it was MADE TO DO for a class that was MADE to do it. [editline]23rd August 2011[/editline] -The Gloves of Running Urgantly A straight upgrade to the heavies regular and unlockable melee, this removes one of the largest weaknesses of the heavy- that is, while getting into position he either has to slow his team down to receive proper cover, or risk being alone while getting into position. The heavy is a monster already, and this added mobility allows him too much utility in exchange melee damage on a class that [b]almost never uses melee anyways.[/b] ... Where the fuck have you been... Are you not on the servers where people brutally annihilate with with the fists alone? The melee for the Heavy is used often and normally. Sorry for the huge rage, but I just completely agree with HyperTails, it's not a real Competitive Tournament unless there's no restrictions. Sissies.

If you do the glitch properly the Boston Basher jump is anything but "minor", you can literally hover half way across battlements to choke in Badlands... I'm not sure why you care how other people play the game. Seems really lame to me. BTW, I'm finding it really difficult to name a single competitive thing in the world that has "no restrictions". Basketball, Football, Soccer, every other sport for that matter, Chess, every other board game for that matter, every competitive game ever from 1.6 to StarCraft, etc all have rules, things you can't do, etc, (aka restrictions) to faciliate a specific type of play that the people enjoy. Guess nothing in the world is really competitive because Mentlegen says so. e: If you don't play competitive, specifically the higher end leagues where these weapon bans are enacted, they don't affect you at all, so really you have no reason to care what-so-ever and it comes off as fairly ignorant/elitist to tell people how they should be playing the game. S'long as you're having fun, that is what matters. Let's not support stupid Activision-esque gameplay designs of "you have to play this way or else" ala Modern Warfare 2, ty.

[QUOTE=Ranik;31894490]If you do the glitch properly the Boston Basher jump is anything but "minor", you can literally hover half way across battlements to choke in Badlands... I'm not sure why you care how other people play the game. Seems really lame to me. BTW, I'm finding it really difficult to name a single competitive thing in the world that has "no restrictions". Basketball, Football, Soccer, every other sport for that matter, Chess, every other board game for that matter, every competitive game ever from 1.6 to StarCraft, etc all have rules, things you can't do, etc, (aka restrictions) to faciliate a specific type of play that the people enjoy. Guess nothing in the world is really competitive because Mentlegen says so. e: If you don't play competitive, specifically the higher end leagues where these weapon bans are enacted, they don't affect you at all, so really you have no reason to care what-so-ever and it comes off as fairly ignorant/elitist to tell people how they should be playing the game. S'long as you're having fun, that is what matters. Let's not support stupid Activision-esque gameplay designs of "you have to play this way or else" ala Modern Warfare 2, ty.[/QUOTE] I knew of this Boston Basher jump before, and I've seen the measly jump across the crates in the weapon demonstration, but never seen someone use it as you have provided. The GRU DOES fix a problem with the Heavies worst weakness, but the fact that it drains your health can be damaging on maps where friendly Engineers refuse to build teleporters and the area you need to get to is pretty far away, though I guess med-kits fix this problem. I reread the LnL and faintly remember using it (My actual computer crashed and about 12 weeks later it's still getting fixed with an unknown time to completion. I need a better repairman.) and do remember otherwise denied one hit kills on the lower health classes. I didn't mean to appear elitist, but I don't understand the point of banning weapons to a game when those weapons are apart of the game, and "banning" a weapon from play just means an unwillingness to conquer it with other tactics like the creators intended. You're right anyways, worrying how other people play a game is stupid. Welp, back to the internet.

The Heavy is supposed to be slow really, but the GRU wouldn't be bad if it actually had a real weakness. You're always going to have a competent Medic in a game of 6v6 so the downside essentially does not exist. In the beta where it was tested the other versions of it had weaknesses like -100 Max HP and slower heal rates on the Heavy but they went with the one that only matters if you don't have Engineers/Medics which is a recipe for disaster. The thing is is competitive is traditionally 6v6. 12v12 does not work very well because 6v6 is already hard enough to schedule for because you have to work around 12+ lives to get all of them on at a specific time to have a game. With half the player count some of the items becomes really dumb. Banning weapons has nothing to do with not being able to conquer them tho. Just because a weapon is beatable doesn't mean it's particular balanced or fun to do so. Competitive players [url=http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4047/compplayerspub.jpg]regularly pub with no restrictions[/url], [url=http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/5682/cpgranary0003.jpg]have won a 12v12 tournament with no restrictions[/url], and [url=http://www.justin.tv/extvesports/b/287524434]even won a Highlander tournament with no restrictions[/url], but when you're playing in a tournament with a) money on the line b) tons of people watching, it needs to be as fair as possible and it needs to be fun to play, and fun to watch (to help draw spectators in and via that, sponsors, which attracts more players, etc). Quite a few of the banned items in a 6v6 environment can slow the game to a literal stand still where nothing happens for literally 5+ minutes, etc. There's plenty of lesser played leagues/tournaments just like that 12v12/9v9 examples with little to no restrictions, and leagues/tournaments on the flip side where everything is basically banned. Tons of options for however people want to play their game and have fun.