Spy is the most pointless class in Team Fortress 2 - Games

I find the spy really good at capping points in assault - especially a cart with the dead ringer. I also find myself shooting a lot as the spy, and backstabbing really only if I end up in a nice spot with distractions after shooting at stuff. Sapping I only do really on lonely sentries or against offensive engineers. I generally find 5 pistol shots to be better and easier than sapping. Another problem is that the spy can't backstab people without team support against those good teams. That's mostly unavoidable. The alternative is to piss them off with a pistol shot and leave, rendering them as good as dead so long as they chase you.

[QUOTE=Notsoaveragejoe;32034430][B]1. Spy is completely hampered by enemy competence[/B][/QUOTE] No it isn't. [QUOTE=Notsoaveragejoe;32034430][B]2. Spy's skill:reward ratio is completely skewered[/B][/QUOTE] That doesn't make him useless. [QUOTE=Notsoaveragejoe;32034430][B]3. There is nothing Spy can do, any class can't do better[/B][/QUOTE] What. The spy can cloak, disguise and has the most powerful attack in the game, the backstab is the only attack that can kill even overcharged heavies in one hit.

I don't know about you but when a Heavy/Medic combo runs through my base in 2fort spy is the best class for that.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;32034861] the backstab is the only attack that can kill even overcharged heavies in one hit.[/QUOTE] Fully charged headshot anyone?

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;32034861]No it isn't. [B]His job becomes significantly harder to the point he is unplayable. Of course, every class gets harder to play when you're up against better opponents with a brain, but you should still be able to wipe them. Not Spy, a Pyro spurting flames everywhere and a team who constantly checks behind their backs will make you as kredit to teem as a dog lying dead on the side of the road.[/B] That doesn't make him useless. [B]He's not useless, but he's pointless. What's the point of playing him when you're better off playing a class that actually rewards you for the time you invest into it? [/B] What. The spy can cloak, disguise and has the most powerful attack in the game, the backstab is the only attack that can kill even overcharged heavies in one hit. [B]Headshots can also insta-kill overhealed Heavies. Cloak and disguise are made redundant by again, Pyros and enemy competence.[/B][/QUOTE] Answers in bold.

[QUOTE=CondoM;32034890]Fully charged headshot anyone?[/QUOTE] I've seen countless of heavies survive a charged headshot while they were overhealed.

Good example of spies being [I]useful[/I] would be one of the Saxxy Award winners. Best Coordinated Combat. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sLO13W0kcM[/media] How else would we disable buildings if the Cow Mangler 5000 wasn't added to the game? The way I see it is that Spy is one of the few classes that has essential abilities such as Disguising and Cloaking. These abilities make him useful for getting behind enemy lines, but let's not forget that he has a melee weapon that can kill instantly from behind. There are also the other Spy unlocks that help with different kinds of play-styles. He can observe the names and health of the enemy team as well, allowing him to relay useful intelligence. Medics with the Solemn Vow can have this ability too, but that's a situational unlock that can be chosen to be equipped. Of course, there's always the Sapper to rid the Engineer of his buildings. This can be extremely useful when coordinating your attacks such as the one seen above. tl;dr Spy has many abilities that makes him useful in many situations. Also, don't you think that if the Spy was underpowered and useless, Valve would've given him a buff or two?

[QUOTE=Siduron;32034963]I've seen countless of heavies survive a charged headshot while they were overhealed.[/QUOTE] Then they either just ate some chocolate or the sniper didn't hit their head. Because surviving a fully charged headshot is practically impossible. I said fully charged headshot, mind you. An overhealed heavy has 450 HP. A fully charged headshot deals exactly 450 damage.

[QUOTE=Siduron;32034963]I've seen countless of heavies survive a charged headshot while they were overhealed.[/QUOTE] not possible. 450 will kill anyone.

[QUOTE=CondoM;32034987]Then they either just ate some chocolate or the sniper didn't hit their head. Because surviving a fully charged headshot is practically impossible. I said fully charged headshot, mind you. An overhealed heavy has 450 HP. A fully charged headshot deals exactly 450 damage.[/QUOTE] Actually..sometimes it seems that head shots hit the mark but don't kill the target. You do some damage with head shots but not kill them entirely. This is common with heavies and soliders.

doesent all damage have a slight variation? some small percentages that does not make it hit excactly for one ammount all the time? im pretty sure ive hit a fully charged heatshot for 440 damage before. thought not to mention, a spy can take out one or even more heavy medic pairs in the matter of seconds theoretically while the sniper would make the group scatter into cover before he could fire multiple shots

[QUOTE=Notsoaveragejoe;32034478]How so? Each of the classes serve a clearly defined purpose. Scout = Taking out priority targets, capturing the point/intel/pushing the cart, flanking Soldier = General offensive unit Pyro = Multi-purpose offensive support unit Demoman = Area denial and also serves as offensive support Engineer = Defense Heavy = Tank Sniper = Long-range assassination Medic = Keeping the team alive and Ubercharges Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have lots of experience with Spy. I can completely break down low-level teams but once the enemy has a Pyro who can rub two brain cells together and gains some basic situational awareness, you're suddenly a wasted player slot.[/QUOTE] You do realize that spy is a support class, right? Like medic or sniper. Plus the game is designed for you to respawn, so of course you're meant to die. There would be no real point in actually debating it to you because you've already made your mind up that spy is useless.

I can literally not see any game of TF2 going well if even one of the classes were missing, fuck, if we have big teams and no-one is on a class we almost always have to struggle alot more to get shit done one way or the other.

The problem with spy is that it's useless half the time and godlike the next. Some games you can prowl around as spy and get mvp, others you're lucky if you can even make it to the sentry nest. Buffing the spy wouldn't do anything except make it even worse when he's on a roll The only thing a spy can really do to help is to soften up a sentry nest before the uber comes in, and take out medics, which is the exact opposite of what most spies do, favoring to take the snipers path of killing people without much of a goal It's just that there are so few people actually good at being a spy as a killing machine and reading the enemy team and knowing where the pyros are going to look that everyone else who does it is just being useless

Is spuf leaking into here or something? As some one who plays pyro, I know of a few good spys, they can still get things done while I'm around. They're just smart enough to stay away from me and know when to execute operation "gtfo."

[QUOTE=ulvemann43;32035017]doesent all damage have a slight variation? some small percentages that does not make it hit excactly for one ammount all the time? im pretty sure ive hit a fully charged heatshot for 440 damage before. thought not to mention, a spy can take out one or even more heavy medic pairs in the matter of seconds theoretically while the sniper would make the group scatter into cover before he could fire multiple shots[/QUOTE] Uhh, no. What does exist are items that reduce bullet damage, and maybe the crit damage, but I'm not sure if the sniper's some kind of exception to those.

[QUOTE=Greenen72;32035266]Uhh, no. What does exist are items that reduce bullet damage, and maybe the crit damage, but I'm not sure if the sniper's some kind of exception to those.[/QUOTE] i am quite sure ive hit for slightly lower or slightly more with headshots on heavies that dont have the fists of steel out nor has the brass beast's set but of course other classes as well

All the classes are [i]perfectly[/i] balanced with their pros and cons. Quit arguing over it.

aw man playing spy is the most fun I've ever had in team fortress 2 curse you random internet person for completely invalidating my fun

Spies aren't useless, it's the players playing them that makes them useless.

[QUOTE=EmperorVagak;32035318]Spies aren't useless, it's the players playing them that makes them useless.[/QUOTE] Yeah, the argument is that the required skill to be a good spy is better spent on something else, making the spy literally useless. Unless it's "this class, it was made for me", then it's pretty much true

Headshots do the same damage always. 100% charged headshot will do 450 damage, 0% charged headshot will do 150 damage. It doesn`t change.

So what do you want them to do? Remove the spy as a class? Cry me a river.

headshots count as crits. crits do not suffer from damage variation. a overhealed heavy cannot survive a full headshot.. dunno where you'd get that idea from.. spys are fun damnit! is there any reason not to play them?

[QUOTE=Another Hater;32034551]I think sniper is far more useless than the spy.[/QUOTE] Are you shitting me. You're almost as silly as the OP. Snipers save lives. If I had a key for every time I've seen a sniper save someone's ass or I saved someone's ass while I was a sniper, I would have enough keys to crash the shitty TF2 economy. They are also good for taking out sentries safely.

I'm just gonna say that if Spy was removed from the game I would definitely lose a lot of interest in the game. He's by far my most played class and I'm pretty decent with it. I only play on public servers and never tried competitive aspect of TF2 so I'm not sure how well I'd do there. This class isn't pointless (I get lots of points with him, but you don't mean that way), no other class can help your teammates as much as him when you coordinate your attacks. Sapping when uber is ready, chain stabbing when the enemy is distracted by your teammates.

I agree that spies are pretty "useless" (well, they could be replaced by a demoman and be a lot more effective in pretty much every way) but I still think it's a fun class to play. I still think engineers are a lot more useless, the only reason a team can't destroy another sentry is because pubs generally suck. If you have a good medic and a decent demoman you can easily crush two or maybe even more sentries depending on their positions. The only thing that really can mess things up is if they have a pyro airblasting the demo/medic and no teammates are pushing together with the uber.

Alright, first of all, thanks for the thread. It's an interesting topic, too bad nobody else even wants to consider backing away from their personal point of view to re-evaluate it. Whether they come to a different conclusion after that or not is of course another thing. Now, I still don't think the Spy is useless, after thinking about it. I do think however there are two things that can hit the Spy harder than any other class: [b]1. Luck.[/b] Good Spies wait for a distraction to happen, but can almost never create them themselves. If you got an attentive Engineer around his Sentry nest, you'll likely need a push from your team to help you out. [b]2. Skill.[/b] Spy grows exponentially harder with the amount of skill the other team possesses because the Spy is all about psychology and tricking players into believing something. Playing your role, activating cloak or DR at the right time, etc. In addition to that, a good Spy also needs very good map knowledge. He needs to know what acrobatic stunts he can pull off during an escape or while getting as safely as possible behind the enemy lines. He needs to know where health and ammo is and what cover he can use to cloak and change directions. Spy needs to now all the other classes behaviorisms in order to predict their actions and paths and trick them. That's why beginners shouldn't play them (tho the DR certainly fixed that). Of course the Spy is also pretty vulnerable. The Enforcer and Diamondback are pretty decent offense weapon for a sneaky guy like him who already has invisibility, a one-hit-kill and the almighty paper mask disguise. He is pretty low on HP, but that's because good Spies almost never get shot. The fact that their invisibility breaks when getting shot underlines that. If an Engineer crit-wrenches you, it should be a lesson to back up and use your revolver and only get closer again if the Sentry is about to get unsapped. Otherwise, random crits can happen to everyone, they make for emotional highs and lows. And may I add that it can also be frustrating as Engineer to get killed by a Revolver crit, and so you have to witness in spectator mode how all your stuff gets slowly destroyed. That said, decent Spies among decent teams often end up scoring in the tops anyway. Why? Because they're still a high threat if played properly. If I could ambush a Spy among our team or ambush a Soldier on his way to our frontlines, I'd always take out the Spy. It's rare to catch a Spy at a vulnerable moment and he can be devastating for a team, be it by assassinating only key targets or doing chainstabs on Medic couples or people pushing the cart. They can also potentially ruin Sentry nests vital to defense in a few second that the Engineer spent minutes setting up, to the point where some Engies switch class because for example Demoman can defend more quickly, albeit arguably less effectively. The thing is that people can't always check their backs. They have to pay attention to the frontlines and keep up the fire or they'll end up losing. Even the most dedicated Spychecker can't look everywhere and will most likely also has a moment where they'd rather see some action than babysitting Engineer. Luck is also the Spy's greatest asset. Sometimes people do stupid things or get easily distracted, in the heat of battle don't notice how the teammate they're healing gets a YER in the back, they take the bait and hunt the Spy through the map while their Sentry gets sabbed - sometimes you get a facestab. And another facestab. And after the third one you go Pyro and get sidestabbed when you almost got him. The Spy's cloak also gives him an advantage when it comes to pulling out of battle that neither Scout nor Soldier possess. Soldier can rocketjump, but that will likely hurt quiet a bit without assuring people will keep shooting on him anyway. He's generally a slow-moving class and like Heavy can be taken out fairly quickly because their immobility can cost them quite a bit of heath if they don't know when to pull out. The Scout is better at getting away, but on all the pubs I ever was on, he generally was a nuisance, to the point where I can shoot down many of them with slow-moving syringes that need path prediction. He can be deadly if played by a very skilled player, no doubt, but then again this is true for every class. Scout's main problem is that he can't sneak into enemy territory as well without the cloak and he is incredibly vulnerable to Sentries without Bonk. Like people already said, the Cow Mangler leaves the Soldier relatively vulnerable and isn't exactly unstoppable either. Without healing support or decent cover the Soldier is a big target already. And sometimes you just get these Sentry nests that are too well protect or just in the wrong place so that any class that tries to damage it without uber has to pull out quickly again before being shot to hell - if you make it that far and the Engie isn't wrangling you from a large distance whenever he doesn't tank the thing. Plus you got enemy team support and you have to deal with them, too. Spies can bypass the whole enemy team if they don't draw divine wrath, and wrangling Engies just ask for a knife in the back and their whole nest being taken out. Speaking of cloak, the DR made playing class muuuch easier in my opinion. You can even spam it without too many regrets. You'll likely attract at least one player that follows you, the obvious DR Spy, and even if they keep hitting you with their meelee and predict your path perfectly, at some point you simply return to enemy territory and it gets too dangerous for them. Then you stock up on metal and repeat. And you can still stab quiet a few people while you're at it. Constant DR spamming and stabbing when possible from a few Spies in a relatively small area can have devastating effects. Last but not least, Spy is fun. So fun in fact whenever there aren't 1-2 people playing him and I can play him without regrets, within minutes we end up having 3 Spies on our team and of course miserably failing because of it because the Spy is a support class. [b]TL;DR Spy is high risk, high reward. Like every class, he excels in certain situations and is completely useless in others. I think he has his place and my gameplay experiences can only confirm that.[/b] If you want to discuss in EVEN GREATER DETAIL, send me a PM you crazy person.

Engis slow down the game and create massive choke points. I really hate engis who keep placing mini sentries and never give up regardless of how many times you destroy them, makes my scout life hard.

[QUOTE=Notsoaveragejoe;32034430]Like the title said. Spy is the most pointless class in Team Fortress 2. His impact on the game is so minimal that if you removed him from the game, nobody would notice. [B]1. Spy is completely hampered by enemy competence[/B] This just in, playing against more skilled enemies means they likely outperform you! [B]2. Spy's skill:reward ratio is completely skewered[/B] Spy is a hard class to play, that's never been denied and nobody says otherwise. 2 out of 3 times you'll probably get hit by a rocket as you cloak across the battlefield, but that one time you make it, people will die. You taking out that engineer and sentry nest means your team can move the cart forward. [B]3. There is nothing Spy can do, any class can't do better[/B] Now this right here is stupid. No class can kill as silently as a Spy. With an Eternal Reward, most enemy players won't even know you're amongst them until it's too late. Enemy corpses disappear almost instantly. Your revolver deals consistent amounts of medium damage, more than can be said for any other weapon. Sapping disables enemy buildings, Ubered heavies still have trouble with Level 3 sentries believe it or not. Even if they can destroy them, the missile blowback can separate the patient from the medic and break the charge. Sapping keeps the sentry from firing, it also destroys the building. [/QUOTE] Answers in the quote, I suspect you've had a bad run as spy.