Spy is the most pointless class in Team Fortress 2 - Games

[QUOTE=Guillebon;32042296]Why do people always say every stealth based class is pointless?[/QUOTE] Because they can't play it.

The problem is that in order for a spy to be an equally powerful offensive force as a group of normal offensive classes, you need an incredible amount of coordination from your team. In order to counter the spy, you need a minimal amount of coordination (See, a lone pyro). That's my biggest gripe.

If you sent a lone soldier to take out an engi nest, he would most likely be brutally raped by missiles and bullets the second the engi pulls out the Wrangler. Hence why the spy is good with that shit, because you can't see him.

The hard counter to a Spy is 'a player who turns around occasionally'. If you want to take out a sentry nest a demoman (preferably with a medic) is your best choice, not a fragile class who relies on the other team being bad at the game. The argument that "you just need to get good at Spy!!" is a stupid one because a spy's playstyle relies 90% on luck. Before you say anything, yes, I am good at spy, getting MvP about 95% of the time - on valve or pub servers where the other team is terrible. against a decent team on a good server like Uberium or Hampshire Heavies I can still get good picks on medics or heavies but I die a LOT more and would generally be more useful as a proper combat class.

Troll topic getting too many posts. You guys are turning into spuf. [editline]31st August 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=DuncanFrost;32044319]a spy's playstyle relies 90% on luck.[/QUOTE] I used to respect you

A good spy is only seen by the enemy half a second before you stab them, you have to work quick and have excellent sleight of hand if you want to take on more paranoid players. I learnt that a long time ago, there is no point in trying to blend in just learn how to quickly stab and get out without ever being seen. Also if anyone says "its hard to not be seen" it really isn't just use height to your advantage and learn how to dive stab, use your own team as a distraction before making your move, people dont check for spies when they're being shot at. The only time being a spy is luck is when people turn around every 5 seconds because you've killed them 10 times already, just move on and avoid them, they're so paranoid its not like they are helping their team now anyway.

[QUOTE=Sneakman!*;32044415]I used to respect you[/QUOTE] Sorry mate but it's true. Spy isn't useless by any means and a good spy will always be better than a bad one, but his ideal situation is situational as fuck and he can only get one or maybe two stabbing sprees or picks before he gets called out (again, unless he's against a shitty team that doesn't use communication). Suddenly the entire team is checking their backs and there's absolutely nothing you can do. [editline]31st August 2011[/editline] Also people who discuss the "ideal disguise" and how to roleplay disguises are idiots. They don't fool anybody.

Communication and paranoia is countered by striking when the enemy is engaged in battle. Force them into a lose-lose situation where, even if they know you're there, they have to pick fighting your teammate(s) and being backstabbed or focusing their fire on you and becoming sitting ducks for the enemy. A good example of this here: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TT5DN9-BWs[/media] 0:50 or so is a good place to start. Whether or not you know when to strike depends on your gamesense and situational awareness. Luck is only a factor if you allow it. [editline]31st August 2011[/editline] And people who say "GOD I TURN A CORNER AND THERES A PYRO, SPY IS SUCHA LUCK BASED CLASS" annoy me to no end. Bumping into a pyro in close quarters spells death for most classes and can be considered crappy luck regardless of what you're playing. Just happens to be more of a hindrance to spies than other classes. Besides, it's party your fault for a) holding up the DR with a pyro flaming at you, b) not cloaking when in an unfamiliar area, c) taking a corner too sharp, d) having no idea what to except when rounding a corner, or some mix of the four. e: it's worth noting that I make these mistakes plenty. I'm by no means a god at spy, nor an expert. I'm certainly a veteran though, and when I do make a mistake, I know that blaming it on luck is downright stupid. I can find fault in myself in nearly every situation where I die.

no.

Disguises are good for fooling Sentries, and escaping death at a first glance. And, even if I don't get a backstab, if I get behind enemy lines and the whole enemy team is after me, I've already distracted them from the push that is getting in their territory, and so my job is done. Bonus points if I take out the sentry nest, the engy, the medic, the sniper, the heavy...

[QUOTE=Sneakman!*;32044742]Communication and paranoia is countered by striking when the enemy is engaged in battle. Force them into a lose-lose situation where, even if they know you're there, they have to pick fighting your teammate(s) and being backstabbed or focusing their fire on you and becoming sitting ducks for the enemy. A good example of this here: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TT5DN9-BWs[/media] 0:50 or so is a good place to start. Whether or not you know when to strike depends on your gamesense and situational awareness. Luck is only a factor if you allow it. [editline]31st August 2011[/editline] [/QUOTE] Are you kidding? The team he was facing was utter shite, he literally ran face-first into a scout flailing around with his knife and somehow didn't get instantly meatshotted, the medic has 0 situational awareness and the soldier/demo could have blown him up in roughly 0.5 seconds while he went for another facestab but somehow managed to whiff him entirely. Also note that telefragging that engy was pure luck - if he hadn't been standing on the pad he would have died to a wrench as soon as he came through.

IF pyro is a problem for a spy, you are a bad spy. Its called "kiting". You basically whip out your revolver of choice, and shoot the pyro while walking backwards.

[QUOTE=Suttles;32044954]IF pyro is a problem for a spy, you are a bad spy. Its called "kiting". You basically whip out your revolver of choice, and shoot the pyro while walking backwards.[/QUOTE] That doesn't always work.

Of course, you need to aim. It is a bit hard to do so to the guy with a wall of fire covering his body, and whose ambition is to see you burn to a crisp, preferably if you backpedal into a wall. Still, a Pyro running torwards a Spy in the open is going to die. Even with my lousy aim I've easily dispatched those careless W+M1 Pyros. And NOTHING is more satisfying that backstabbing a bad Pyro. Such as the guy who jumps into the water after a Spy. With Backburner, Flare Gun and Axtinguisher. A gift for a YER Spy.

[QUOTE=CakeMaster7;32044998]That doesn't always work.[/QUOTE] Funny, I do it all the time. You gotta confuse the pyro and shit, try to go a way he wouldn't expect. Then once again I use deadringer+enforcer...

Please return to SPUF. Actually don't move, I'll do it for you. [url=http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=906]There you go. Get out[/url].

TF2 is many things, but balanced is not one of them.

[QUOTE=Suttles;32044954]IF pyro is a problem for a spy, you are a bad spy. Its called "kiting". You basically whip out your revolver of choice, and shoot the pyro while walking backwards.[/QUOTE] You do know that pyros walking forward move faster than any class except scout walking backwards. But 1v1 pyro isn't the problem, it's encountering them when you're, say, trying to kill people or sentries [editline]asd[/editline] But yeah, the only thing spies are better than than any other class is killing people while they're distracted.

[QUOTE=DuncanFrost;32044885]he literally ran face-first into a scout flailing around with his knife and somehow didn't get instantly meatshotted[/QUOTE] scout was preoccupied [QUOTE=DuncanFrost;32044885]the medic has 0 situational awareness[/QUOTE] medic was preoccupied [QUOTE=DuncanFrost;32044885]the soldier/demo could have blown him up in roughly 0.5 seconds while he went for another facestab but somehow managed to whiff him entirely.[/QUOTE] they were preoccupied noticing a pattern? [QUOTE=DuncanFrost;32044885]Also note that telefragging that engy was pure luck - if he hadn't been standing on the pad he would have died to a wrench as soon as he came through.[/QUOTE] that has zero relevance to my point but 1) sure, it was dumb luck, but the spy knew what he was doing. He saw the nest beforehand and dealt with it. Two different scenarios: a) he doesn't telefrag the engie and dies in the tussle or b) the engie isn't there and he saps everything as planned. scenario a would be a direct result of the spy not knowing what he was getting himself into and risking his life so that he can sap the buildings. He took the risk and lucked out. Except all classes get lucky breaks sometimes, and all classes get unlucky sometimes, so bringing that up was completely pointless [editline]31st August 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Greenen72;32045328]You do know that pyros walking forward move faster than any class except scout walking backwards.[/QUOTE] Pyros move no faster than any other class. You're just going slower. That's why they close distance easily.

The only problem with spy is when you get a team that constantly spy checks, constantly turns around randomly to fire into nothing just to check for spies, or pyros who run around the map shooting little bursts of fire to check (and due to the stupid range of the flamer, this is a pain in the ass). Spy is useless when the enemy team are patrolling, but if they're focused on the enemy then you're good to go.

[QUOTE=Sneakman!*;32045363]Pyros move no faster than any other class. You're just going slower. That's why they close distance easily.[/QUOTE] Pyro forward speed- 100% Spy backward speed- 90% Holy fuck are you really getting into semantics

[QUOTE=Sneakman!*;32045363]scout was preoccupied[/quote] He was shooting a guy literally right behind the spy [quote]medic was preoccupied[/quote] Medics don't have an excuse for being pre-occupied - their role in combat only requires them to hold down attack, so being situationally aware and such is his job. He should be looking around at all times, calling out targets and spies and shit like that. In fact a medic-[good player] pair is both the most valuable target for a spy and the hardest thing to take out. [quote]that has zero relevance to my point but 1) sure, it was dumb luck, but the spy knew what he was doing. He saw the nest beforehand and dealt with it. Two different scenarios: a) he doesn't telefrag the engie and dies in the tussle or b) the engie isn't there and he saps everything as planned. scenario a would be a direct result of the spy not knowing what he was getting himself into and risking his life so that he can sap the buildings. He took the risk and lucked out. Except all classes get lucky breaks sometimes, and all classes get unlucky sometimes, so bringing that up was completely pointless[/quote] Except every other combat class (except maybe scout) could have taken out that base while also being directly useful on the battlefield and not needing ten to twenty seconds of prep time to get to the teleporter for an uncertain gamble.

[QUOTE=Sneakman!*;32044742]Bumping into a pyro in close quarters spells death for most classes and can be considered crappy luck regardless of what you're playing.[/QUOTE] ...No? I play pretty much nothing but pyro nowadays and that's absolute crap. The flamethrower does less DPS than the pistol. If he wants to take you in close-quarters he's got to use the axtinguisher or a close range flare. In fact, you should be more worried about flares than the flamethrower since they can do ninety damage a pop plus the (laughable) afterburn D/T.

[QUOTE=Suttles;32044954]IF pyro is a problem for a spy, you are a bad spy. Its called "kiting". You basically whip out your revolver of choice, and shoot the pyro while walking backwards.[/QUOTE] Then a Flaregun because the Pyro might be too far to hit you with the flamethrower but close enough to land a blow with the flaregun. Repeated hits with the flaregun hurt too, yknow.

[QUOTE=Suttles;32044954]IF pyro is a problem for a spy, you are a bad spy. Its called "kiting". You basically whip out your revolver of choice, and shoot the pyro while walking backwards.[/QUOTE] A) Pyro will catch up. B) Flaregun/Shotgun does more damage than the flamethrower, you're still dead. Honestly, you must be using that on AWFUL pyros.

Funny, I always escape from pyros... Then once again I use dead ringer, normal knife, and enforcer. It makes it easy. Shoot, shoot...he got too close? Dead ringer, move away, uncloak. Shoot shoot. Hes dead.

[QUOTE=Suttles;32045596]Funny, I always escape from pyros... Then once again I use dead ringer, normal knife, and enforcer. It makes it easy. Shoot, shoot...he got too close? Dead ringer, move away, uncloak. Shoot shoot. Hes dead.[/QUOTE] [quote]Honestly, you must be using that on AWFUL pyros.[/quote]

No, I do that to everyone I play with. No matter the class. Dead ringer+enforcer is cheap as fuck, I'm sorry.

Enforcer is a good gun. I go with cloak and dagger, enforcer and regular knife.

[QUOTE=DuncanFrost;32045483]He was shooting a guy literally right behind the spy[/QUOTE] What video are you watching? [t]http://i53.tinypic.com/15yazi8.png[/t] The scout is facing this direction for the majority of the battle. He only fires about 2 shots in the spy's direction, both of which are low damage/misses because everybody makes mistakes and doesn't mean the player is bad. In addition, the scout eats a rocket and is pretty banged up, so I don't see why you expected him to kill the spy [QUOTE=DuncanFrost;32045483]Medics don't have an excuse for being pre-occupied - their role in combat only requires them to hold down attack, so being situationally aware and such is his job. He should be looking around at all times, calling out targets and spies and shit like that. In fact a medic-[good player] pair is both the most valuable target for a spy and the hardest thing to take out.[/QUOTE] Looking around at all times? I guess that would include looking straight forward, so technically he's not doing anything wrong. Just because he's not doing 360s doesn't make him a situationally unaware medic. also, medics have to dodge a lot of projectiles, so maybe he was focused in on that. you're doing a whole lot of judging without having a good grasp on the exact situation. [QUOTE=DuncanFrost;32045483]Except every other combat class (except maybe scout) could have taken out that base while also being directly useful on the battlefield and not needing ten to twenty seconds of prep time to get to the teleporter for an uncertain gamble.[/QUOTE] Except those combat classes wouldn't be able to get there since the enemy team held mid. [QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;32045488]...No? I play pretty much nothing but pyro nowadays and that's absolute crap. The flamethrower does less DPS than the pistol. If he wants to take you in close-quarters he's got to use the axtinguisher or a close range flare. In fact, you should be more worried about flares than the flamethrower since they can do ninety damage a pop plus the (laughable) afterburn D/T.[/QUOTE] Pyros still do just fine in close range because a) degreaser + axting or b) the player in question is terrible and dies to direct flame. and btw, numbers aren't always exact. Sure, the shotgun/pistol/revolver is higher damaging, but it also requires actual precision, which most players lack. A lot of people would agree that bumping into a pyro around a corner sucks regardless of what class they're playing, because even if they kill the pyro, they've probably been banged up a little bit and have to fall back