September 21, 2011 Beta Patch (Second Misc and Loadout Saving)
1,131 replies, posted
Someone needs to use two Purity Fists with this.
[QUOTE=Wormy;32442163]I honestly hope Valve remove the Tomislav nerf in the actual release. I love it too much.[/QUOTE]
It's trading instant rev up for survivability to me, that's more balanced than lowering fire speed which really only affects very long range attacks.
even though everyone probably said it already;
This is Awesome.
[QUOTE=Luafox;32439452]are you fucking joking
all pyros ive seen have taken out level 2 sentries with ease
even level 3 sentries if they had overheal
and he has a flaregun that crits every time he hits someone burning already
I even played heavy and some pyro "puff n stinged" me to death literally with one hit from the axtinguisher when i had almost full health
[editline]23rd September 2011[/editline]
Frankly I don't think Pyro is a noskill class, but he is definately not underpowered[/QUOTE]
It must be you who are fucking kidding.
The only sentry the pyro can take out with ease is the lv1. lv3's rockets can be reflected, though this needs some skill.
But if a pyro can take out a Lv2 then the engie is not good at it.
I'm not saying pyro is an underpowered class that requires no skill, I'm saying that it has kept its original pro, which is close range combat, something completely useless against a sentry.
Otherwise, it became a tad better at killing people since vanilla. But it's still shit at killing sentries.
[QUOTE=kingddd;32442276]It's trading instant rev up for survivability to me, that's more balanced than lowering fire speed which really only affects very long range attacks.[/QUOTE]
except survivability is what Heavy does...
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;32442443]except survivability is what Heavy does...[/QUOTE]
Except he also gained instant rev up which is already nulling one of the heavy's weakness. So it's fair trade to my eyes.
[quote]The Fists of Steel now block airblasting. [/quote] Oh wow, that's going to make suicide fist heavies a pain.
[QUOTE=kingddd;32442612]Except he also gained instant rev up which is already nulling one of the heavy's weakness. So it's fair trade to my eyes.[/QUOTE]
you keep saying "instant" rev up, but that's not even true. It's faster than the mingun, but it's not "click and fire." Plus he's totally immobile while firing...
How does faster rev up even help if you're going to die faster anyway? A Heavy with slower windup, but the extra 50 HP will be able to shrug off the damage he'd take while reving, compared to outright losing the health right off the bat.
Now people are suddenly trying to shoehorn this stealth element into Heavy that he just can't do to try and rationalize a nerf that doesn't need to happen. The Tomislav shined when you were pushing forward, in clear view of everyone, and not giving a damn because you can rev up quickly. Such an ability becomes lost when you're down 50 health and can't hold as long during a big push. Heavy just can't be stealthy, he doesn't have the stats to back that ability up with anything. Silent spin up is practically a non-upgrade, because if you're going to be reving up and waiting anyway, might as well use another Minigun and gain some extra power. And if you're using the Tomislav to push... well, -50 HP destroys that advantage pretty quickly.
And there was nothing wrong with the weapon in the first place that required such a huge nerf...
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;32442666]you keep saying "instant" rev up, but that's not even true. It's faster than the mingun, but it's not "click and fire." Plus he's totally immobile while firing...
How does faster rev up even help if you're going to die faster anyway? A Heavy with slower windup, but the extra 50 HP will be able to shrug off the damage he'd take while reving, compared to outright losing the health right off the bat.
Now people are suddenly trying to shoehorn this stealth element into Heavy that he just can't do to try and rationalize a nerf that doesn't need to happen. The Tomislav shined when you were pushing forward, in clear view of everyone, and not giving a damn because you can rev up quickly. Such an ability becomes lost when you're down 50 health and can't hold as long during a big push. Heavy just can't be stealthy, he doesn't have the stats to back that ability up with anything. Silent spin up is practically a non-upgrade, because if you're going to be reving up and waiting anyway, might as well use another Minigun and gain some extra power. And if you're using the Tomislav to push... well, -50 HP destroys that advantage pretty quickly.
And there was nothing wrong with the weapon in the first place that required such a huge nerf...[/QUOTE]
While I can agree with pushing element to be taken away but that is his main trade off. He still has a high dps and in most cases it shouldn't pose a problem to actually kill someone. But honestly we can't really judge it well enough until Valve lets us test it out.
I'm able to test it just fine...
Anyway, here's the post about it I made on SUF
[quote]I find it funny suddenly Tomislav is a stealth weapon. Like Heavy is some kind of ninja who can sit and wait for people to pass by and then stalk them until the right time to strike. Heavy isn't Pyro, Scout or Spy, he just can't do that. The upside of silent spinup is a pretty useless upside.
A. You use it to sit and wait for people "in stealth." Well, you're huge, slow and lack any sort of ability to chase after people or use long range. Your abilities as a Heavy to stalk and strike are... well they're non-existant. If you're hanging around waiting all day to strike, you're better off using the Brass Beast or something, because nobody is going to miss your giant frame standing there in the corner, and as soon as the rat-tat starts your cover is blown for awhile until people forget that's the only Heavy hiding spot on the entire map.
B. You use the Tomislav as a pushing weapon. This is what it's good at. You get to the front lines using the GRU + a pocket medic, you switch to the Tomislav and you strike at the front lines and keep moving and pushing because you're able to quickly go in and out of combat (unlike the Minigun). When things settle down, you keep moving straight ahead, and rev as soon as you spot an enemy. Tomislav Heavy sacrifices power (well, he's suppose to at least), for the ability to get closer to his enemies, faster. -50 ruins this advantage by causing Heavy to be bad at pushing to the front.
What Tomislav needs to become is like a very streamlined, reverse-brass beast.
+50% faster spin-up speed
Silent Killer: Blah blah no-one cares
20% slower firing speed
-25% damage penalty
+25% bullet spread penalty
+15% speed while reved.
103ish DPS, still a respectable number, but way lower than the Minigun (about a third as powerful). Allows Heavy to push at close range with ease, but makes him awful at any other range. Slightly faster rev speed also, which doesn't make much of a difference, but the DPS penalty seemed really harsh to me. [/quote]
Fosters Facade and Spiral Sallet.
OH GOD.
Keep the Tomi nerf or make it so it has some large spread. Its a giant tommy gun, those things were for spraying and praying since they usually had a drum magazine for the most spray.
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;32442882]I'm able to test it just fine...
Anyway, here's the post about it I made on SUF[/QUOTE]
I can agree with most of the attributes you suggested. We can't just test it within a small group of people though. It has be within a more wider range.
[QUOTE=Vaught;32442946] make it so it has some large spread.[/QUOTE]
Yep, that would be a good balance. It would make Heavy less effective as medium range, while still roughly the same at close range. It works with the fast rev up time because it forces the heavy to get in close for the kill, which would require a faster rev time.
It also works because the weapon is a Tommy Gun. I much prefer balance changes that make sense for the weapon, rather than weird magical changes to the class that have nothing to do with the weapon.
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;32442991]Yep, that would be a good balance. It would make Heavy less effective as medium range, while still roughly the same at close range. It works with the fast rev up time because it forces the heavy to get in close for the kill, which would require a faster rev time.
It also works because the weapon is a Tommy Gun. I much prefer balance changes that make sense for the weapon, rather than weird magical changes to the class that have nothing to do with the weapon.[/QUOTE]
Of course, spread doesn't matter if you can aim as a bullet always passes down the middle of the crosshair. If they got rid of that, it'd be better.
Of course, if they gave the heavy a sort of Lightning Gun (Super focused bullets with no spread whatsoever) that forces to you aim, maybe heavy would see a bit more light in the competitive world (lolnotreally). Of course, if you want a gun like that, play sniper.
The nerf on the Tomislav is fair, just use a Dahlohkos bar if you're too bad as a Heavy and can't use the default minigun.
[QUOTE=MrParalegal;32443204]The nerf on the Tomislav is fair, just use a Dahlohkos bar if you're too bad as a Heavy and can't use the default minigun.[/QUOTE]
uhh...
that makes the -50 health even worse because you lack an effective way to quickly heal health. And with less total health, health recovery become more important. A Tomislav Heavy would never leave home without a Sandvich is it keeps the -50 health
[QUOTE=SXBIG;32443252]Yes.[/QUOTE]
Wasn't there a model for the sallet with the face protection down?
[quote]The Tomislav now reduces the wearer's health by 50.
The cloak delay when using the Enforcer was increased to 1 second from 0.5 seconds.[/quote]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM7BKQZ-LOw&feature=related[/media]
[QUOTE=gamerman345;32443754][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM7BKQZ-LOw&feature=related[/media][/QUOTE]
It's because of an error that rounds up the 0.5 seconds into 1 second
You know since the demoman's grenades are going to become a bodygroup why doesn't someone make a kilt so then valve will have to make the whole lower half of the demoman a bodygroup.
I bet they code it so the Demo won't have any grenades on his chest if he's using a shield and the booties, aka no ranged bombs. It'd make sense and make demoknights more recognizable.
[QUOTE='[Green];32444071'][B]I bet they code it so the Demo won't have any grenades on his chest if he's using a shield and the booties, aka no ranged bombs[/B]. It'd make sense and make demoknights more recognizable.[/QUOTE]
Dreams... dreams everywhere.
I bet It will be a misc that someone made a demoman grenades replacement on bombs.
I recall someone ranting about valve not using bodygroups. Seems like it's changed, which is a good thing I guess
[QUOTE=Streecer;32442939]Fosters Facade and Spiral Sallet.
OH GOD.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't clip
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;32442882]I'm able to test it just fine...
Anyway, here's the post about it I made on SUF[/QUOTE]
I like this idea.
Though honestly, I don't think the Tomislav needs a nerf that terribly. I kinda like the idea of a weapon whose only counter is the original. A Tomislav Heavy can do everything a normal heavy can do just fine, but if the Tomislav heavy comes across a Minigun heavy, the Tomislav heavy will lose that fight. It's a fairly decent sidegrade and I don't really have any problems with it.
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;32443229]uhh...
that makes the -50 health even worse because you lack an effective way to quickly heal health. And with less total health, health recovery become more important. A Tomislav Heavy would never leave home without a Sandvich is it keeps the -50 health[/QUOTE]
You forget that the Dalakohs' doesn't have any cooldown, so you can eat it before battle to have the 300 HP, then repeatedly eat after an encounter for full health again. Since the tomislav is intended for ambushing, rather than outright running into battle, you would usually have to time to regen health fully since there's no cooldown.
[QUOTE=AlfieSR;32445327]You forget that the Dalakohs' doesn't have any cooldown, so you can eat it before battle to have the 300 HP, then repeatedly eat after an encounter for full health again. Since the tomislav is intended for ambushing, rather than outright running into battle, you would usually have to time to regen health fully since there's no cooldown.[/QUOTE]
It takes 4 seconds to eat a Dalhokos, and the Heavy's pretty loud too, you'd need to find a safe place, and that isn't possible most of the time
[QUOTE=AlfieSR;32445327]You forget that the Dalakohs' doesn't have any cooldown, so you can eat it before battle to have the 300 HP, then repeatedly eat after an encounter for full health again. Since the tomislav is intended for ambushing, rather than outright running into battle, you would usually have to time to regen health fully since there's no cooldown.[/QUOTE]
Having to wait 4 seconds to heal 50hp as many times as you like versus being able to drop a medium health kit every 30 seconds? A health kit that heals 125 health instantly and can be refilled with a medkit if you're at full health? You'd have to eat the bar 3 times to get that, which is close to 15 seconds (half of Sandvich), but you're immobile the entire time...
I'll take Sandvich any day. That 4 seconds of being a sitting duck is just not worth the 50 health you get back. Not with the Tomislav, not ever.
And I've already pointed out, no, absolutely not is the Tomislav "intended" to ambush. Heavy can't ambush. He's just not built for it. He can't stalk, he can't chase, and he's awful as soon as the enemy escapes. He's also huge can't get into many of the same hiding spots other classes can because he lacks a second or high jump. If you're playing Heavy like a ninja, you're absolutely using him at his weakest potential. And even if you could, the -50 health offsets the faster wind up time. Now instead of winding up slowly and taking 50 hp while you do it, you just lose the health right off the bat.
This is a terrible "nerf" (although it's more destroying it) to the weapon that doesn't address any of the issues with it, while at the same time neutralizing any benefits the weapon already had.
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