September 21, 2011 Beta Patch (Second Misc and Loadout Saving) - Games

The stats of the vanilla Flamethrower are hard coded and are applied to the other FTs; changes to the vanilla become the default values.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;32545958]The stats of the vanilla Flamethrower are hard coded and are applied to the other FTs; changes to the vanilla become the default values.[/QUOTE] You're shitting me. Holy hell, Valve.

[QUOTE=Vaught;32545916]I'm blind here, where do you see this 'buff'?[/QUOTE] Basically, from what I'm understanding, increasing the Flamethrower's base damage also increased the Degreaser's damage. Even though it has 10% less than the default flamethrower, it's currently doing more damage in the beta than it is in the retail game. It's a bit confusing, and was probably unintentional. I hope.

Flamethrower: Plus 10% damage Backburner: A loss of the damage buff of 10%, but still keeps the +10% of the Flamethrower, so it didn't lose any damage Degreaser: A loss of 10% damage, but also gains the 10% of the Flamethrower. A wash, it was totally buffed. It does the same damage it did before the update, it only does less damage than the new Flamethrower Only the stock Flamethrower was buffed DPS wise. The Degreaser was buffed with more afterburn Everything except the stock Flamethrower do exactly the same amount of damage as before the patch

[QUOTE=ned_ballad;32545997]Flamethrower: Plus 10% damage Backburner: A loss of the damage buff of 10%, but still keeps the +10% of the Flamethrower, so it didn't lose any damage Degreaser: A loss of 10% damage, but also gains the 10% of the Flamethrower. A wash, it was totally buffed. It does the same damage it did before the update, it only does less damage than the new Flamethrower Only the stock Flamethrower was buffed DPS wise. The Degreaser was buffed with more afterburn Everything except the stock Flamethrower do exactly the same amount of damage as before the patch[/QUOTE] So basically we're at this stage: Flamethrower and Backburner are fair sidegrades to each other. The Degreaser is way fucking better than the Flamethrower and the Backburner and renders the Flamethrower and the Backburner to be pointless. Well, at least the Flamethrower and the Backburner are on equal footing now. It's a start.

[QUOTE=ned_ballad;32545997]Flamethrower: Plus 10% damage Backburner: A loss of the damage buff of 10%, but still keeps the +10% of the Flamethrower, so it didn't lose any damage Degreaser: A loss of 10% damage, but also gains the 10% of the Flamethrower. A wash, it was totally buffed. It does the same damage it did before the update, it only does less damage than the new Flamethrower Only the stock Flamethrower was buffed DPS wise. The Degreaser was buffed with more afterburn Everything except the stock Flamethrower do exactly the same amount of damage as before the patch[/QUOTE] Learn your multiplication, dude. 1.1 * 0.9 = .99 It deals 99% of the damage it dealt prior to the changes to the Stock Flamethrower and the addition of the -10% damage penalty attribute.

[QUOTE=ned_ballad;32545859] except it now does more burn damage.[/QUOTE] the burn damage before was a pretty insignificant debuff anyway. but now it does less damage on contact, which can be devastating. getting face-burned by a backburner was always pretty much instant death for me (with +10%), while not so much with the flamethrower.

[QUOTE=The Calzone;32546076]So basically we're at this stage: Flamethrower and Backburner are fair sidegrades to each other. The Degreaser is way fucking better than the Flamethrower and the Backburner and renders the Flamethrower and the Backburner to be pointless. Well, at least the Flamethrower and the Backburner are on equal footing now. It's a start.[/QUOTE] The math: [QUOTE=Vaught;32546038]Since the flamer is hardcoded and used as the default for other flamers: FT: Original - 139.4 / sec| Beta - 153.34 Buttburner: Same Degreaser: Original 139.4 / sec | With -10% applied: 125.94 | With FT coding in play: 138.534 Checks out[/QUOTE] While not the same damage, it's unnoticeable.

[QUOTE=ned_ballad;32545997]Flamethrower: Plus 10% damage Backburner: A loss of the damage buff of 10%, but still keeps the +10% of the Flamethrower, so it didn't lose any damage Degreaser: A loss of 10% damage, but also gains the 10% of the Flamethrower. A wash, it was totally buffed. It does the same damage it did before the update, it only does less damage than the new Flamethrower Only the stock Flamethrower was buffed DPS wise. The Degreaser was buffed with more afterburn Everything except the stock Flamethrower do exactly the same amount of damage as before the patch[/QUOTE] Not quite. The degreaser is doing 90% of the damage of the others, but the new base damage (in percentages) is 110 instead of 100. And, 90% of 110 is 99, not 100. So the Degreaser has a slight damage nerf. I'm kinda good with numbers but I'm a mess explaining myself, so if you want more clarification ask me. The degreaser needs afterburn nerf and some airblast nerf.

[QUOTE=Vaught;32546217]The math: While not the same damage, it's unnoticeable.[/QUOTE] So it's less than one HP away from being a buff. And in the long run it's completely a buff. Welp.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;32546228]The degreaser needs afterburn nerf and some airblast nerf.[/QUOTE]Some reapplication of an afterburn nerf I could see, but airblast nerf? Since the Degreaser promotes being on-your-toes with weapon possibilities, wouldn't that be the most likely primary to properly utilize and reward reflects in a firefight?

[QUOTE=Pennywise;32546504]Some reapplication of an afterburn nerf I could see, but airblast nerf? Since the Degreaser promotes being on-your-toes with weapon possibilities, wouldn't that be the most likely primary to properly utilize and reward reflects in a firefight?[/QUOTE] Normal flamer (And to a lesser degree, BB) can do the same thing, just not whipping between weapons rapidly.

So I'm just throwing this out here: Anyone else think the Pyro could stand to have his default weapon switch speed increased? Not to degreaser levels, don't get me wrong, but to the point where a Pyro and a Soldier could both switch from their primaries to their shotguns and start firing at the same time.

[QUOTE=The Calzone;32546604]So I'm just throwing this out here: Anyone else think the Pyro could stand to have his default weapon switch speed increased? Not to degreaser levels, don't get me wrong, but to the point where a Pyro and a Soldier could both switch from their primaries to their shotguns and start firing at the same time.[/QUOTE] All classes change between their weapons at the same speed (unless modified by the Degreaser, Reserve Shooter, or Fists of Steel)

[QUOTE=The Calzone;32546604]So I'm just throwing this out here: Anyone else think the Pyro could stand to have his default weapon switch speed increased? Not to degreaser levels, don't get me wrong, but to the point where a Pyro and a Soldier could both switch from their primaries to their shotguns and start firing at the same time.[/QUOTE] Not sure what that'd accomplish other than allowing the Pyro to be a better weapon heckler and more frontal attack class as it can whip between weapons faster.

so... what if the Degreaser lost its airblast? Hmm... that would be an interesting nerf to it.

[QUOTE=ned_ballad;32547029]so... what if the Degreaser lost its airblast? Hmm... that would be an interesting nerf to it.[/QUOTE] No one would use it then. Perhaps more ammo reduction on-airblast like Backburner?

Well now I think the backburner is underpowered. :v:

[QUOTE=ned_ballad;32547029]so... what if the Degreaser lost its airblast? Hmm... that would be an interesting nerf to it.[/QUOTE] If anything needs a loss of airblast, it's the backburner. Getting behind a group that's charging and just flaming can crush them and pretty much kill anything. I suggest something like the loss of the airblast for the backburner (again), and another +10% damage for it. That way it's more of a sidegrade than a straight upgrade, like the degreaser.

The Backburner doesn't need to be a downgrade.

Yeah I think I might just keep using the Degreaser since it got buffed and all.

is it me or poeple tand to forget that the Backburner CRITS from behind ennemies? it should be a weapon that promote sneaking up behind ennemies, not a go full front weapon. so degreaser = for puff'n sting backburner = sneaking up behind flamethrower = well uh...

I have both an Strange Flamethrower and a Strange Backburner. Using the Degreaser kind of contradicts my Pyro playstyle of sneaking and killing the medic, the heavy and the soldiers at the same time, and STILL I think I'm going to use it. If only for giving mail to people. EDIT: Oh, and if the damage the BB does is decreased, then the crits from behind become less useful; the BB is meant to promote lone-wolfing: Sneak behind, kill things, eventually either die or get back; at the cost of team oriented support (reflections and blowing fires away without having to pick ammo), and the sole reliable way to take on multiple enemies. The increased Airblast cost is enough penalty for the behind crits.

[QUOTE=Mico27;32548775]is it me or poeple tand to forget that the Backburner CRITS from behind ennemies? it should be a weapon that promote sneaking up behind ennemies, not a go full front weapon. so degreaser = for puff'n sting backburner = sneaking up behind flamethrower = well uh...[/QUOTE] Exactly. It's a sneak attack weapon, and the way it is right now is you can airblast so you can do the puff n' sting and/or do reflects. Sure, it's a higher price to do them, but you can easily do it at the rate that pyro can kill people and get their weapons for ammo. It should just be a sneak attack weapon, and at the rate I'm seeing people use it nowadays, it looks like straight upgrade, well, if you aren't good at puff n' stinging with the degreaser. Then again, who isn't.

[QUOTE=Ian;32549217]It should just be a sneak attack weapon, and at the rate I'm seeing people use it nowadays, it looks like straight upgrade, well, if you aren't good at puff n' stinging with the degreaser. Then again, who isn't.[/QUOTE] Did you already forget how useless it was between the removal of +50hp and the addition of +10% damage, let alone the increased-cost airblast?

The extra damage is needed to have the crits actually worth it. Take any longer and other classes WILL kill you even if taken from behind.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;32549327]The extra damage is needed to have the crits actually worth it. Take any longer and other classes WILL kill you even if taken from behind.[/QUOTE] Did you ever consider that the Backburner hasn't actually changed at all? It deals the same damage as it did before the damage bonus was removed and the stock flamethrower's base damage was increased because ALL CHANGES TO THE STOCK ARE CARRIED OVER TO THE VARIANTS. Hence the damage penalty on the Degreaser. The only thing that changed was the stock's damage output, the Backburner no longer has that attribute listed, and the Degreaser has a "downside" compared to the stock in addition to afterburn not being gimped (although it was a joke downside anyway)

I pointed that stuff out in this same thread 8 hours ago.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;32549387]I pointed that stuff out in this same thread 8 hours ago.[/QUOTE]And yet you are still calling the Backburner worse than it was despite it not changing a bit.

Nope, I was talking about suggestions about making the backburner less powerful, with the whole "still being useful as a frontal assault weapon" deal. Nevermind the fact that Pyros do not work that way. Excuse me for not being clear enough.