September 21, 2011 Beta Patch (Second Misc and Loadout Saving) - Games

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32549251]Did you already forget how useless it was between the removal of +50hp and the addition of +10% damage, let alone the increased-cost airblast?[/QUOTE] It's pretty damn useful if you know how to flank.

[QUOTE=Ian;32549496]It's pretty damn useful if you know how to flank.[/QUOTE] It's pretty damn useless if your enemies know how to check their flanks. [sp]We're talking about pre-airblast Backburner, so don't try to turn this around on me[/sp]

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32549514]It's pretty damn useless if your enemies know how to check their flanks. [sp]We're talking about pre-airblast Backburner, so don't try to turn this around on me[/sp][/QUOTE] You'd be surprised how many TF2 players absolutely fall flat in checking their flanks. [sp]Yeah I know, that's the only backburner I ever used.[/sp]

I know how to flank, but I'd dislike being killed by a freaking Spy I come across with due to having a flamethrower useless in a direct confrontation. With the Standard FT buff, it is perfect: Less useful on a frontal assault or when sticking by the team, insanely better when sneaking behind. The problem with BB Pyros is them using the Axtinguisher. It doesn't work there, just equip the backscratcher and pretend you are playing a durable spy that kills several people at once (and can do fart jumps). And, if you don't use the backburner, don't call it OP.

[QUOTE=Ian;32549522]You'd be surprised how many TF2 players absolutely fall flat in checking their flanks. [sp]Yeah I know, that's the only backburner I ever used.[/sp][/QUOTE] Incompetency does not define what is and is not balanced.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;32549555]I know how to flank, but I'd dislike being killed by a freaking Spy-[/QUOTE] Wait no you're a pyro that gets killed by a spy? There's got to be something wrong here.

Enforcer, stairstabs. Heck, the standard revolver outranges and outdamages anything you can throw to a Spy. Maybe the flaregun can do something, but good spies know how to dodge a projectile coming at them. When you play enough, you see that Spies are quite superior to Pyros, and that Engies are superior to Spies, despite being lead to belive the contrary. And I'm not the one saying it.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32549562]Incompetency does not define what is and is not balanced.[/QUOTE] Eh. Point taken. It's just that most of the people I've played with rarely check their flanks, so I take that general gameplay as pretty much fact. The only players who actively check their flanks are either really nervous or comp. players in my experience. [editline]29th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Eriorguez;32549604]Enforcer, stairstabs. Heck, the standard revolver outranges and outdamages anything you can throw to a Spy. Maybe the flaregun can do something, but good spies know how to dodge a projectile coming at them. When you play enough, you see that Spies are quite superior to Pyros, and that Engies are superior to Spies, despite being lead to belive the contrary. And I'm not the one saying it.[/QUOTE] Imo pyros outclass spies in the sense that they can find them if they're using cloak and dagger and pretty much keep a track of one even if they've got a DR. It's only a matter of the spy's playstyle from there.

Or the Spy may be using the invisi watch and getting away in those 9 seconds plus ammo sources. And, in an open area, one on one, Spy wins. Good Spies know the revolver is a primary for a reason.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;32549604]Enforcer, stairstabs.[/QUOTE] Shotgun? Stairstabs are a joke. If you're not an idiot, pausing before running up a ramp to mess up his timing OR LOOK THE FUCK UP is not hard. Pyro > Spy.

Shotgun at long range is useless against a revolver or a 2-shotting Ambassador. The Spy, of course, doesn't want to get close to the Pyro, but can easily dispatch it outside of its effective range. At upmost skill, a Spy beats a Pyro. At upmost skill, an Engi beats a Spy.

[QUOTE=Captain Chalky;32550151]Pyro is still underpowered. Fire needs more visual noise and propably a debuff effect of some sort. (taking more damage when on fire, doing less damage when on fire)[/QUOTE] I dont know about all that. As someone with hundreds of hours into Pyro (even AFTER the Nerf in 2010) I can safely say that the damage buffs will make Pyro fearsome again, even in the hands of a noob. ...But Pyro mains are so used to shit by now, giving them buffs will probably lead to lots of devestation and tears. Think about it: A good Pyro is only countered by Heavy. And by good Pyro I mean a REALLY good Pyro. Having to deal with crap stats and handicaps has made most Pyro mains resilient and skilled. Giving them buffs is going to make these Pyros even more of a menace. I remember before the fire nerf in 2010, a Pyro could run up to a sentry and outdamage it. This means that kind of stuff will return.

Good to see Pyros becoming Uber candidates, and the quick fix getting some usability there. Still, that one needs the old beta stats.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32549562]Incompetency does not define what is and is not balanced.[/QUOTE] by that logic you'd be balancing everything with competitive players' feedback, no?

I am fucking ready for this double misc update Scout- Essential Accesories (Black) + Specs Soldier- Fancy Dress Uniform + Shades Pyro- Whiskers, Fosters (Black Painted), Tie (2 of the 3) Demo- Hater Shades + License to Maim Heavy- Pocket Medic + Deus Specs Engie- G Pip Boy + Deus Specs Medic- V Medic Mask + License to Maim Sniper- Villian's Veil + Maim Spy- Rouge Col + Maim Then plus Deus Specs, Liscense to Maim, and the Summer Shades for the second item. All I want is a made man and teddy now for engie and spy.

[QUOTE=Captain Chalky;32520474]All the pyro needs is to deal the afterburn damage faster (currently damage dealt every 0,5 seconds, should be damage dealt by every 0,33 seconds) and more visual noise for being on fire. Damage dealt faster = harder to avoid death; pyro actually being capable of killing enemies with afterburn More visual noise = harder to navigate[/QUOTE] No, I completely disagree. I think Afterburn should be changed so that burning enemies who are hit by Melee attacks receive Mini-Crits. Think about it. Not only does this buff the Pyro in a needed way, but it removes some of the emphasis on Pyro using Axtinguisher (Guaranteed Full Crits on burning opponents) all the time. This way, Pyro retains the same kind of Axtinguisher kind of melee-finish combo, but with all other melee weapons. Also, other team mates can smack other burning players with their melee weapons for the same bonus damage. Although I'd probably also say they would need to nerf the Backscratcher to +20% damage and buff the Homewrecker to only -20% damage. So in essence: Afterburn deals the same DoT, but in addition you receive Mini-Crits from Melee weapons. Backscratcher Damage Bonus nerfed from +25% to +20%. Homewrecker Damage Bonus buffed from -25% to -20%.

That would be really overpowered I think the puff'n'sting capabilities of the Pyro are way too big with the degreaser, equipping it should give you a global nerf like -15HP, +10% bullet damage, or -25% damage on other weapons

I think it's a very good change. I'd just buff a little the BB by lowering the AB cost penalty to +100% allowing for 5 blasts at full ammo, and with all the Flamethrowers pretty much balanced I'd start to work on the Axtinguisher. The Degreaser, now, is OP only when used with it. Otherwise's balanced.

Move the penalty of the whole set to the Degreaser: The set works as always, the standalone DG is nerfed.

So, Basicly, These are the changes if we confront them with retail flamers Degreaser = +10% damage, +25% afterburn damage* Backburner = No changes Flamethrower = +10% damage That's what happened to them, right? *Removal of the penalty

Degreaser got +10% damage? This is news.

[QUOTE=AlfieSR;32552727]Degreaser got +10% damage? This is news.[/QUOTE] nghhhh The stock flamethrower got a 10% damage buff, and since it was the stock weapon, the changes applied to all the other. Therefore, yes, basicly the degreaser got a straight buff. The exta 10% was removed from the BB, lowering it's damage to the Flamethrower's one

[QUOTE=NitronikALT;32552746]nghhhh The stock flamethrower got a 10% damage buff, and since it was the stock weapon, the changes applied to all the other. Therefore, yes, basicly the degreaser got a straight buff. The exta 10% was removed from the BB, lowering it's damage to the Flamethrower's one[/QUOTE] The degreaser has a total of -1% damage compared to nonbeta, but with normal afterburn. Not +10% damage.

[QUOTE=AlfieSR;32552761]The degreaser has a total of -1% damage compared to nonbeta, but with normal afterburn. Not +10% damage.[/QUOTE] hell It has a 10% penalty in the beta, and since, in the beta, 10% damage got added, that makes it have the standard NONbeta damage. It just received afterburn removal. AS ned said, Everything except the stock Flamethrower do exactly the same amount of damage as before the patch

[QUOTE=NitronikALT;32552789]hell It has a 10% penalty in the beta, and since, in the beta, 10% damage got added, that makes it have the standard NONbeta damage. It just received afterburn removal. AS ned said, Everything except the stock Flamethrower do exactly the same amount of damage as before the patch[/QUOTE] The math was done earlier. If you add 10% to something then remove 10% of the new value, you're talking more away. It does 99% damage of what it does nonbeta, but the difference is minimal at best.

[QUOTE=AlfieSR;32552826]The math was done earlier. If you add 10% to something then remove 10% of the new value, you're talking more away. It does 99% damage of what it does nonbeta, but the difference is minimal at best.[/QUOTE] So basicly we should give it total 20% damage nerf in order for it to do 10% less damage than nonbeta if I got my maths finally right

Not quite, more like 18-19%. Still kinda works, but the math is wrong.

Can anybody explain why the backburner has a damage bonus [i]and[/i] airblast ability? It's just plain superior to the stock flamethrower, and I hate it. Controlled crits, more damage in general (meaning that it is also better to use when directly attacking someone), also has airblast ability.

[QUOTE=Chrille;32552900]Can anybody explain why the backburner has a damage bonus [i]and[/i] airblast ability? It's just plain superior to the stock flamethrower, and I hate it. Controlled crits, more damage in general (meaning that it is also better to use when directly attacking someone), also has airblast ability.[/QUOTE] I don't think it's superior to the stock flamethrower seeing as the airblast takes a giant chunk out of your ammo when used

[QUOTE=Mio Akiyama;32552918]I don't think it's superior to the stock flamethrower seeing as the airblast takes a giant chunk out of your ammo when used[/QUOTE]For every player that doesn't airblast frequently, it was a complete upgrade. The damage bonus allured novice/unskilled players into using it for general purpose fighting instead of attempting to get the backcrits. It makes more sense now, even though it wasn't actually changed statistically.