September 21, 2011 Beta Patch (Second Misc and Loadout Saving) - Games

[QUOTE=Erfly;32559702]I still find it sad how even the ENGINEER who's a DEFENCE class has more mobility with his wrangler jumping than the detonator which is on an OFFENSE class.[/QUOTE] i wouldn't call "spending 600 metal on a level 3 sentry to shoot yourself with" mobility

[QUOTE=Max of S2D;32559859]i wouldn't call "spending 600 metal on a level 3 sentry to shoot yourself with" mobility[/QUOTE] with the inability to repair or give your sentry more ammo from where you are, even.

Quite glad after seeing that video that the real flarejump didn't make it to the main game, those puff-n-sting pyro's are already cheap and annoying enough.

[QUOTE=MrParalegal;32560046]Quite glad after seeing that video that the real flarejump didn't make it to the main game, those puff-n-sting pyro's are already cheap and annoying enough.[/QUOTE] It's no more annoying than a Scout who knows how to double-jump while two-shotting you.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32560232]It's no more annoying than a Scout who knows how to double-jump while two-shotting you.[/QUOTE] That still requires atleast some effort from the Scout.

While I think the Detonator could use a small buff, I side with MrParalegal here. The beta flarejump was [B]insane[/B] to the point the flaregun, or even the shotgun, could have become useless, like the fireaxe or the bonesaw. This does not justify how Valve managed the thing, by TROLOLOLOing us crippling the Detonator jump without a single word, immediately before shipping the update. I think that a small jump height increase or a self damage reduction could do the trick.

[QUOTE=Max of S2D;32559859]i wouldn't call "spending 600 metal on a level 3 sentry to shoot yourself with" mobility[/QUOTE] You can also jump with mini-sentry and even normal level 1 sentry once you get hang of it. It can be more damaging and harder at times, but it works well.

Gotta save all the Reserve Shooters I can now, in case they go up in demand if it becomes an option for Pyro.

Honestly i think the Degreaser is fine as it is. Playing Pyro against competent people is really hard. I've tried pug'ing with the Pyro, it's nearly impossible. It's only useful to a certain extent on pubs too. If you nerf the Degreaser the Pyro would be usesless again..

Making a class dependant on not even an unlock, but a craftable item, is a bad idea. Buff the Pyro in a way that it is useful using most loadouts, not just DG/Axtinguisher/Somewhat balanced secondaries.

[QUOTE=Max of S2D;32552021]That would be really overpowered I think the puff'n'sting capabilities of the Pyro are way too big with the degreaser, equipping it should give you a global nerf like -15HP, +10% bullet damage, or -25% damage on other weapons[/QUOTE] Degreaser Pyro is NOT overpowered. Even though he got that weapon switch speed as a new toy he still doesn't dominate. You're sounding like the guys over at SPUF who think Pyro is still some sort of monster. [i](Hint: He never was and still isn't.)[/i] Fact: Pyro lacks any kind of reliable medium to long range weapon damage. [i](No, a single-clip, slow-reloading Flare Gun / Detonator is not reliable damage. A 4-clip splash damage Rocket Launcher is reliable medium range damage, a Flare Gun is not.)[/i] Fact: Pyro has base standard movement speed and a somewhat healthy 175 HP. [i](He never really was able to W+M1 against anybody other than classes slower than base standard speed. W+M1 is a term that was only really ever applicable to +40 HP Backburner way back in the day and more appropriately Heavy.)[/i] Fact: Pyro is out DPS'ed by most other classes at point blank range, where damage rampup is more favorable to other class primary weapons than a Flamethrower. [i](At one point, even Medic's Syringe Gun did more point blank damage than Pyro's Flamethrower shortly after the controversial -20% damage to all Flamethowers update. They gave Pyro back 10% of his damage and his original Afterburn duration afterwards.)[/i] Pyro's only saving grace was afterburn application was easy and aiming with the Flamethrower's particle damage was simple. Apart from that he has the slowest reloading speed of all shotguns (Engineer's is quickest as it's his primary) and that's a bread'n'butter Pyro secondary. Fact of the matter is that Shotgun still out DPS the Flamethrower at point-blank range. Takes only two meatshots to kill any class other than Soldier or Heavy. Meanwhile, it takes an entire second and a half of Flamethower application to kill the same classes killed by 2 Shotgun meatshots. Pyro should be a class to where if you're caught in a 1-on-1 in close range, then you should die. If you're not watching your flanks and behind you for Spies / Pyros / Scouts, then you pretty much deserve to die if you let the opponent get the jump on you. Pyro's forte is close range. Let him have is forte. Denying him his forte means he will forever be a gimped class. I seriously can't believe you guys think Degreaser/Axtinguisher is OP, but meanwhile you still completely ignore the imbalance of both Soldier and Demoman. [QUOTE=Eriorguez;32572042]Making a class dependant on not even an unlock, but a craftable item, is a bad idea. Buff the Pyro in a way that it is useful using most loadouts, not just DG/Axtinguisher/Somewhat balanced secondaries.[/QUOTE] Like I said earlier. If afterburn was buffed in a way that enemies who are on fire universally receive mini-crits from melee weapons from [i]any class[/i] not only would it return afterburn to being a rather potent DoT effect, but it would remove some of the emphasis on Axtinguisher being the go-to Melee weapon for Pyro. You guys wanted better Pyro melee variety than Axtinguisher and you wanted Afterburn to be dangerous right? Well there you go, make burning enemies receive mini-crits (+33% damage) from melee weapon damage. That solves both of those problems. This actually solves questionable melee unlocks like the RIFT Fire Axe and makes them actually somewhat useful. It would mini-crit and apply burning simultaneously.

[QUOTE=MrParalegal;32560343]That still requires atleast some effort from the Scout.[/QUOTE] Right, because that bit where he blasted someone up in to the air, flarejumped up to him, and then chopped him mid-air took absolutely no effort or coordination whatsoever.

[QUOTE=The Calzone;32583115]Right, because that bit where he blasted someone up in to the air, flarejumped up to him, and then chopped him mid-air took absolutely no effort or coordination whatsoever.[/QUOTE]Give me a rocket launcher and a market gardener and I can do the same thing but accidentally kill them with the shot that was intended to knock them into the air and from any range instead of just up close.

[QUOTE=TheJoey;32554623]if you're a demoman and can't fight two pyros then you still suck at demoman. pop a few stickies and they're dead, man. I think the real problem between flamethrower Pyros (before beta update) and backburner pyros was, if the two went up against eachother or met eachother around the corner, the backburner can win based solely on damage done alone without the use of any actual tactics.[/QUOTE] Nigga, demomen suck at close range which is where pyros rule. Face it, if you're not a demoknight and you get rushed by a pyro, if you can't aim you're fucked. Even then, you're more likely to kill yourself with the splash of your GL instead of killing the pyro.

[QUOTE=Ian;32583319]Nigga, demomen suck at close range which is where pyros rule. Face it, if you're not a demoknight and you get rushed by a pyro, if you can't aim you're fucked. Even then, you're more likely to kill yourself with the splash of your GL instead of killing the pyro.[/QUOTE] All classes attempting to melee Pyro (even Demoknight) are gimped by Air Blast. You can simply deny them the chance to ever get close. In addition, have you forgotten that both Chargin Targe, Splendid Screen, and the Polycount Demoman set reduce Fire damage? Don't forget the fact that Air Blast still can't reflect grenades or stickies to any sort of useful effect. If you're good enough to time the Air Blast, chances are the sticky and or grenade just fell at your feet, waiting to explode. The end result is this: Demomen have the advantage over Pyros, as long as the Demoman isn't one of the notoriously awful players who insist on Demoknighting. Yes, being a Demoknight is fun, but by choosing to Demoknight on any map other than cp_degroot_keep you are purposely choosing a crappy loadout (ie: any loadout other than Sticky Launcher + Grenade Launcher/Loch-n-Load). You probably deserve to get killed by a Pyro who refuses to let you in melee range if you insist on Demoknighting.

[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;32583395]All classes attempting to melee Pyro (even Demoknight) are gimped by Air Blast. You can simply deny them the chance to ever get close. In addition, have you forgotten that both Chargin Targe, Splendid Screen, and the Polycount Demoman set reduce Fire damage? Don't forget the fact that Air Blast still can't reflect grenades or stickies to any sort of useful effect. If you're good enough to time the Air Blast, chances are the sticky and or grenade just fell at your feet, waiting to explode. The end result is this: Demomen have the advantage over Pyros, as long as the Demoman isn't one of the notoriously awful players who insist on Demoknighting. Yes, being a Demoknight is fun, but by choosing to Demoknight on any map other than cp_degroot_keep you are purposely choosing a crappy loadout (ie: any loadout other than Sticky Launcher + Grenade Launcher/Loch-n-Load). You probably deserve to get killed by a Pyro who refuses to let you in melee range if you insist on Demoknighting.[/QUOTE] 1. Not really. You'd be surprised how useful the splendid screen and any damn melee just destroys pyros regardless of airblasts 2. Sooooooo many pyros reflect stickies because they just go straight back to the sender, and reflex makes them kill themselves. See a sticky spammer and spam M2 and/or shoot him with your shotty/flare at mid-range 3. No. You must have a personal thing against demoknights. Pyros can pretty much destroy any demo who's in closerange and isn't a demoknight. Stickies are midrange and will kill you because you're trying to shoot and detonate them before they even have a chance to come out of the damn thing. Grenades will kill you from splash and do around 100 damage to the pyro, who can pretty much shrug it off if they have a medic or there's a health kit nearby. The only choice is melee at that point, which is just going to make you die faster. Now, Demomen outclass pyros at midrange. Simple dodging negates flares and the shotgun loses its effectiveness at midrange, well at least when juxtaposed to the GL/SL. Demoknights destroy pyros most of the time. That's just a thing. This is pretty much just in close range, though. Demoknights have the charge on their side which decreases fire damage and gives them the ability to go faster than the scout then do a little/a lot of damage. Pyros can usually kill demoknights if they get them at midrange though, which is where the airblast comes in handy. This is pretty much eliminated by smart demoknights who keep a Grenade Launcher.

[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;32582794]Apart from that he has the slowest reloading speed of all shotguns (Engineer's is quickest as it's his primary) and that's a bread'n'butter Pyro secondary.[/QUOTE] Shotguns were changed during the Mannconomy Update to avoid this - this is why, to my understanding, pump noises don't play for some classes, because every class now reloads at the same speed. [QUOTE=Joey JoJo;32582794]Like I said earlier. If afterburn was buffed in a way that enemies who are on fire universally receive mini-crits from melee weapons from [i]any class[/i] not only would it return afterburn to being a rather potent DoT effect, but it would remove some of the emphasis on Axtinguisher being the go-to Melee weapon for Pyro. You guys wanted better Pyro melee variety than Axtinguisher and you wanted Afterburn to be dangerous right? Well there you go, make burning enemies receive mini-crits (+33% damage) from melee weapon damage. That solves both of those problems. This actually solves questionable melee unlocks like the RIFT Fire Axe and makes them actually somewhat useful. It would mini-crit and apply burning simultaneously.[/QUOTE] I kind of like this part, though. Fire turns into a global terrible, terrible thing, and doesn't change the Pyro [I]too[/I] much in one-on-one direct combat... yet enforces its class ideal of creating chaos at close-range.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32583275]Give me a rocket launcher and a market gardener and I can do the same thing but accidentally kill them with the shot that was intended to knock them into the air and from any range instead of just up close.[/QUOTE] I've been browsing SPUF all day and I almost though you were serious. :v:

[QUOTE=mutated;32583557]Shotguns were changed during the Mannconomy Update to avoid this - this is why, to my understanding, pump noises don't play for some classes, because every class now reloads at the same speed.[/quote] September 30, 2010 Patch (The Mann-Conomy Update) Every class's Shotgun now reloads at the same speed. Sorry, I wasn't aware of this update. Yeah, you were correct on that part. [QUOTE=Ian;32583509]Demoknights destroy pyros most of the time. That's just a thing. This is pretty much just in close range, though. Demoknights have the charge on their side which decreases fire damage and gives them the ability to go faster than the scout then do a little/a lot of damage. Pyros can usually kill demoknights if they get them at midrange though, which is where the airblast comes in handy. This is pretty much eliminated by smart demoknights who keep a Grenade Launcher.[/QUOTE] I speak from personal experience that it's an uphill battle when a novice Demoman attempts to kill me as a Pyro. In so begins Demoknight's bread-n-butter opening move: Charge. I let them get close, puff flames as they charge into me and get afterburn application, and then airblast them backwards before they have a chance to melee me. Now Demoman's in awkward position as he's now in midrange and lost all of his momentum. He can neither charge towards me, nor can he charge away because I wasted his charge. He's now burning. He also has less HP than me, and is constantly losing more. He could also have Booties equipped and again be at a loss without a midrange weapon. He can either choose to run away. (Not that great of an idea. I'm base speed so I'm faster) Or foolishly attempt to melee me again. (I'll just air blast him back away again) Or pull out his Grenade Launcher/Loch-N-Load. (Much less common of an option, given the amount of Booties Demoknights now) Typically, he has two make one of those choices while I've already pulled out my Shotgun and begun shooting at him at midrange, while he's burning. By personal experience, I win 9 times out of 10. I end up losing on the rare occasions that they snuck around behind me without charging, and still retained their charge to run or approach again, or because I get greedy and attempt to Axtinguish him to teach him a lesson, but the typical source engine melee hitbox range crap happens to prevent me. Now if they're a regular Demoman, then chances are I lose 6 to 7 times out of 10. I can't approach him because he can destroy me at mid range, and Air Blasts can only reliably reflect rockets. Reflecting stickies and grenades leaves them on the floor for me to die from. I'm usually forced to just flee the situation while shooting for minimal damage with my shotgun.

[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;32584386]September 30, 2010 Patch (The Mann-Conomy Update) ~TEXT~ [/QUOTE] Pretty much repeated what I just said, but okay.

[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;32582794] Pyro should be a class to where if you're caught in a 1-on-1 in close range, then you should die. If you're not watching your flanks and behind you for Spies / Pyros / Scouts, then you pretty much deserve to die if you let the opponent get the jump on you. Pyro's forte is close range. Let him have is forte. Denying him his forte means he will forever be a gimped class. [/QUOTE] I really hate this mind set.

[QUOTE=scotty-furs;32585402]I really hate this mind set.[/QUOTE] I agree, a class shouldn't be restricted by "rules". Let the class develop, if the demo never got different weapons like the ullapool caber tf2 would get so god damn boring.

[QUOTE=scotty-furs;32585402]I really hate this mind set.[/QUOTE] And why's that? As I've already explained before Pyro just sucks at medium range and long range. His only saving graces as an offensive class are his/her low skill ceiling particle shooting weapon (Flamethrower), afterburn application, and a decent 175 HP bulk. Yet you want to deny Pyro even a notion of being decent in close range encounters? That's the only range he's even decent in because that's the only range where his primary (and supposedly most important weapon) can reach. (Fun Fact: Heavy, Soldier, and Scout do more DPS in the same range where Pyro's limited to engaging with his primary weapon.) I love how 5 years into the game, people have just gotten used to the fact that Demoman has both a 'primary weapon' and 'secondary weapon' which are each individually more powerful than most other classes' primary weapons. It's sort of logical with Soldier's case; He has a powerful Rocket Launcher primary. His Shotgun's just not quite as powerful as a primary, so it's a medium power supplement or secondary weapon. And he has a melee weapon. Meanwhile, Demoman has a 'secondary weapon' (which should be the weaker supplemental weapon equivalent to most classes shotguns) called the Sticky Launcher with 8 clip which can destroy 4 or 5 players within 3 to 4 seconds by merely alternating left and right clicking quickly. But no, Pyro shouldn't be allowed to kill in short range, the only range his Flamethrower can reach. That's just taboo. [QUOTE=Shounic;32588409]I agree, a class shouldn't be restricted by "rules". Let the class develop, if the demo never got different weapons like the ullapool caber tf2 would get so god damn boring.[/QUOTE] You quote "rules." What "rules" are you talking about? The "rules" that govern each classes' specialty and intended purpose? Yeah, I sure would love for Valve to implement a flamethrower that shot medium range fireball particles instead of a flame stream, but at the moment, Pyro's primary weapons still suck in the only range they can even reach. (Yeah, his shotgun out-DPSes his flamethrower. Who woulda thunk?) Yeah, I would like for Valve to change up Pyro's primary weapon variety rather than just damage / critical / airblast modifiers by giving him a weaker medium range option that shot fireballs. (Sort of like how Scout got the Shortstop as a weaker medium range replacement for the short range powerhouse Scattergun) But no, that just hasn't happened yet. So Pyro as a whole is still limited to short range encounters. Heavy has almost twice as much HP, his minigun's ramp up does more damage in close range, and his minigun actually works and is still quite good in medium range. You'd think there would be some kind of better trade off than just Pyro having afterburn application and no spin up required damage.

The Sticky/Shield is pretty much the Demo's primary; heck, it IS coded as a primary. The suplementary weapons are the grenade launchers (weaker that the sticky) and the booties/theorical gunboats (are you going to call THAT primary weapons?) I agree on a Pyro getting on your ass having to be pretty much instant death; yesterday I killed a GOOD Pyro I came across face to face. In the ducts on turbine. As Spy. That shouldn't happen.

y'know if valve would just get around to balancing Heavy it'd have a net effect of buffing Pyros as their hardest counter would be less ubiquitous/powerful

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;32590167]The Sticky/Shield is pretty much the Demo's primary; heck, it IS coded as a primary. The suplementary weapons are the grenade launchers (weaker that the sticky) and the booties/theorical gunboats (are you going to call THAT primary weapons?)[/QUOTE] Sticky does around 70 damage while the grenade launcher does around 100 on a direct hit, and can kill any class that isn't an overhealed heavy with a direct crit. Plus the Loch-n-Load makes this damage go up by 20% so, no, the sticky is not more powerful than the grenade launcher

[QUOTE=Ian;32593025]Sticky does around 70 damage while the grenade launcher does around 100 on a direct hit, and can kill any class that isn't an overhealed heavy with a direct crit. Plus the Loch-n-Load makes this damage go up by 20% so, no, the sticky is not more powerful than the grenade launcher[/QUOTE] Stickies under the feet do 101-ish damage.

Hey, maybe all that new stuff really is for Halloween, they could call it the Costumne Update....why? the 2 misc item slots, that's why! And probably all the new hats and shit they'll surely add.

[QUOTE=Colour;32593045]Stickies under the feet do 101-ish damage.[/QUOTE] stickies, that is. As in more than one. The GL is a fallback weapon that does a lot of damage, fast, when your sticky trap fails.

[QUOTE=Colour;32593045]Stickies under the feet do 101-ish damage.[/QUOTE] a well-placed sticky at very close range can 1shot light classes.