September 21, 2011 Beta Patch (Second Misc and Loadout Saving)
1,131 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Eriorguez;32590167]The Sticky/Shield is pretty much the Demo's primary; heck, it IS coded as a primary. The suplementary weapons are the grenade launchers (weaker that the sticky) and the booties/theorical gunboats (are you going to call THAT primary weapons?)
I agree on a Pyro getting on your ass having to be pretty much instant death; yesterday I killed a GOOD Pyro I came across face to face. In the ducts on turbine. As Spy. That shouldn't happen.[/QUOTE]
Tell that to Valve. They're still stupidly stuck in the thought that Grenade Launcher should be a primary weapon and they pretty much just cemented that with one of the beta updates. They actually recently swapped the position of the Grenade Launcher and Sticky Launcher in Beta item loadout slots, remember? Grenade Launcher is listed first, and Sticky Launcher is listed second. I agree, Sticky Launcher [i]should[/i] be a primary weapon, Grenade Launcher [i]should[/i] be nerfed to make it a comparable sidearm equivalent to most other classes' shotguns.
Let's look at the Soldier, again, as the perfect model as what should and should not be a Primary or Secondary weapon.
The Rocket Launcher is a primary weapon. Why?
It's Soldier's most powerful weapon, it's related to his class icon, and grants access to his unique advanced movement technique Rocket Jumping.
Therefore, Sticky Launcher should be a primary weapon. Why?
It's Demoman's (arguably) most powerful sustained damage weapon, it's related to his (current) class icon, and grants access to his unique advanced movement technique Sticky Jumping. His shield unlock trades off Sticky Jumping movement for Charging movement and offensive power for damage resistance and Melee criticals.
Soldier's Shotgun and Gunboats are secondary weapons. Why?
Shotgun deals only direct damage and doesn't really have advanced techniques. Gunboats trade off having a supplemental weapon for a small buff. (In this case reduced rocket jump self damage)
Therefore Grenade Launcher and Ali Baba's Wee Booties should be secondary weapons. Why?
Grenade Launcher, like the shotgun, is used for direct damage dealing and doesn't really have advanced techniques. Ali Baba's Wee Booties trades off having a supplemental weapon for an additional buff which can make it easier to Demoknight.
The problem in this case is that unlike shotgun supplemental weapons, Demoman's 'supplemental weapon' isn't really weaker than the Sticky Launcher. So it feels just as strong as a primary weapon and as a result, it's one of many reasons why Demoman is still OP.
IMO, Grenade Launcher should've been nerfed a long time ago to make it a projectile-based equivalent to the standard Shotgun. Give it a larger ammo supply (up to 24 or 30), a slightly faster reload, a larger clip (up to 6 grenades), and give it a 40% or 45% damage nerf.
4 * 100% = 400% Damage, according to current Grenade Launcher.
6 * 55% = 330% Damage, after a suitable Grenade Launcher nerf.
In addition, Demoman should be fixed to spawn with the Sticky Launcher held first and the Grenade Launcher held second, etc.
[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;32597081]Tell that to Valve. They're still stupidly stuck in the thought that Grenade Launcher should be a primary weapon and they pretty much just cemented that with one of the beta updates. They actually recently swapped the position of the Grenade Launcher and Sticky Launcher in Beta item loadout slots, remember? Grenade Launcher is listed first, and Sticky Launcher is listed second. I agree, Sticky Launcher [i]should[/i] be a primary weapon, Grenade Launcher [i]should[/i] be nerfed to make it a comparable sidearm equivalent to most other classes' shotguns.
Let's look at the Soldier, again, as the perfect model as what should and should not be a Primary or Secondary weapon.
The Rocket Launcher is a primary weapon. Why?
It's Soldier's most powerful weapon, it's related to his class icon, and grants access to his unique advanced movement technique Rocket Jumping.
Therefore, Sticky Launcher should be a primary weapon. Why?
It's Demoman's (arguably) most powerful sustained damage weapon, it's related to his (current) class icon, and grants access to his unique advanced movement technique Sticky Jumping. His shield unlock trades off Sticky Jumping movement for Charging movement and offensive power for damage resistance and Melee criticals.
Soldier's Shotgun and Gunboats are secondary weapons. Why?
Shotgun deals only direct damage and doesn't really have advanced techniques. Gunboats trade off having a supplemental weapon for a small buff. (In this case reduced rocket jump self damage)
Therefore Grenade Launcher and Ali Baba's Wee Booties should be secondary weapons. Why?
Grenade Launcher, like the shotgun, is used for direct damage dealing and doesn't really have advanced techniques. Ali Baba's Wee Booties trades off having a supplemental weapon for an additional buff which can make it easier to Demoknight.
The problem in this case is that unlike shotgun supplemental weapons, Demoman's 'supplemental weapon' isn't really weaker than the Sticky Launcher. So it feels just as strong as a primary weapon and as a result, it's one of many reasons why Demoman is still OP.
IMO, Grenade Launcher should've been nerfed a long time ago to make it a projectile-based equivalent to the standard Shotgun. Give it a larger ammo supply (up to 24 or 30), a slightly faster reload, a larger clip (up to 6 grenades), and give it a 40% or 45% damage nerf.
4 * 100% = 400% Damage, according to current Grenade Launcher.
6 * 55% = 330% Damage, after a suitable Grenade Launcher nerf.
In addition, Demoman should be fixed to spawn with the Sticky Launcher held first and the Grenade Launcher held second, etc.[/QUOTE]
Medigun isn't the Medic's primary and Knife isn't the Spy's primary according to the game code. No one should give a shit about it because that's not how the game plays out. Loadout slots have absolutely nothing to do with how a class should be formatted.
Demoman is designed as a "blow everything up" class where he will kill himself or be critically damaged or killed by someone else if he gets caught with his pants down (that's the entire reason that his weapons have the longest reload times in the entire game, to make him super vulnerable if he is caught unprepared). Soldier is designed as a jack of all trades, the Rocket Launcher is reliable, the shotgun is reliable, the two weapons have complimented each other very well as far back as Quake, so there's no real issue with those two weapons being paired together for their synergy.
And nerfing the Grenade Launcher won't solve jack shit, it'll just make more people rely on their stickies and stickies alone. It'd also completely cripple demoknights, who have it as their PRIMARY and ONLY ranged option for damage. 6 shots, reduced damage or otherwise, will only encourage players to fire them in volleys and then forget about them as they get splash damage kills on players they weren't even paying attention to. More shots encourages a spammy mentality, it's evident if you were around for the release-version Demoman, release-version Soldier, the Cow Mangler 5000, and a few others.
Nerfing things just because they're too powerful in YOUR view doesn't make fuck sense if you don't compensate in some other way that actually makes sense.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32597272]Medigun isn't the Medic's primary and Knife isn't the Spy's primary according to the game code. No one should give a shit about it because that's not how the game plays out. Loadout slots have absolutely nothing to do with how a class should be formatted.[/quote]
Primary weapons among all vanilla weapons have been each class' strongest weapon in terms of ranged/projectile/hitscan damage. (Except Pyro, who's been to hell and back and whose Flamethrower currently has lower DPS than his Shotgun. I do believe it originally used to do more damage than Shotgun at point blank.) Sticky Launcher is Demoman's strongest weapon in terms of ranged damage. However, Grenade Launcher is (arguably) a very close second. Therein lies (one of) the problem(s) with Demoman.
[quote]And nerfing the Grenade Launcher won't solve jack shit, it'll just make more people rely on their stickies and stickies alone.[/quote]
This has been a known fact since TF2 began to have a competitive scene. Demomen use their Grenade Launcher almost exclusively to kill mid-air Soldiers who rocket jumped. Otherwise, as good Demomen should, they're relying on air detonated stickies for ~80% of their direct damage. If they're ever in a situation where they don't have their Sticky Launcher reloaded, that's when you can tell that the player isn't a very good Demoman. Good Demomen know and practice ammo conservation. Bad Demomen waste their stickies and waste their grenades, spamming them on the floor hoping it kills the Medic or Scout.
[quote]It'd also completely cripple demoknights, who have it as their PRIMARY and ONLY ranged option for damage. 6 shots, reduced damage or otherwise, will only encourage players to fire them in volleys and then forget about them as they get splash damage kills on players they weren't even paying attention to. More shots encourages a spammy mentality, it's evident if you were around for the release-version Demoman, release-version Soldier, the Cow Mangler 5000, and a few others.[/quote]
Demoknights have always been a crippled class. Since their inception, using a shield over the Sticky Launcher was known to be a bad idea by players who've been with the game long enough to know that Sticky Launcher is Demoman's key weapon. This is a problem inherent with both Valve's melee hit detection and a problem in that the Shield does not adequately provide the offense needed for the Demoman to even think twice about unequipping his Sticky Launcher.
Spammy mentality was solved pretty quickly once people realized that Cow Mangler 5000 was a crappy weapon, dealing less damage and taking more time to reload. Spammy mentality can once again be dissuaded when Demomen notice their direct contact grenades deal damage in the 60's rather than 100+. Soldier and Demomen were outright OP in TF2 beta, with their huge clip. That had to be solved by literally halving the clip size but keeping the weapon damage the same. It could've also been solved by keeping the clip the same size but drastically reducing its damage, but the other road was taken.
And you also mentioned that Demoman was a class designed to "blow shit up." How is a 6 clip Grenade Launcher not going to encourage "blowing shit up"? Not only would 6 clips fit the model more, (Why does it hold 4 pineapples when the model clearly shows 6 pineapple slots?) but it'd also make it somewhat more reliable like the Shotgun. When you're out of primary ammo and you need to reload, it's a saving grace to know you can switch to your secondary and know you have 6 attempts to kill the enemy, and if you miss, well, at least your weapon reloads a little faster than it did before.
[quote]Nerfing things just because they're too powerful in YOUR view doesn't make fuck sense if you don't compensate in some other way that actually makes sense.[/QUOTE]
I'm not nerfing things because they're powerful in my view. Demomen have consistently been the most OP class since TF2 Beta. Demoman has gone through more nerfs than Pyro has and still continues to be OP. (Just look at TF2 league class restrictions. 2 Soldiers is fine, but Demoman is limited to at maximum ONE)
I'm not the only one who has known that Demoman has been an OP class and I'm not the first one to have drawn the line and noticed that for a supplemental weapon, Grenade Launcher deals a lot of damage. (Potentially 3HKOing a Heavy, while it takes 4 or 5 Rockets)
For whatever reason, Facepunch is still completely oblivious to the fact that Demoman is still OP.
[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;32597966]Primary weapons among all vanilla weapons have been each class' strongest weapon in terms of ranged damage. Sticky Launcher is Demoman's strongest weapon in terms of ranged damage. However, Grenade Launcher is (arguably) a very close second. Therein lies (one of) the problem(s) with Demoman.[/quote]
If the Grenade Launcher is such an issue, then why aren't you addressing what is arguably considered a rocket launcher with twice the clipsize and constant threatening presence since you can detonate it whenever you want and will persist in the world upon contact.
[quote]This has been a known fact since TF2 began to have a competitive scene. Demomen use their Grenade Launcher almost exclusively to kill mid-air Soldiers who rocket jumped. Otherwise, as good Demomen should, they're relying on air detonated stickies for ~80% of their direct damage. If they're ever in a situation where they don't have their Sticky Launcher reloaded, that's when you can tell that the player isn't a very good Demoman. Good Demomen know and practice ammo conservation. Bad Demomen waste their stickies and waste their grenades, spamming them on the floor hoping it kills the Medic or Scout.[/quote]
Grenade launcher is an amazing weapon, it's way more reliable than the sticky launcher for hitting people directly because it detonates automatically on contact. Regardless of what you say, people run out of ammo even with smart ammo conservation because they're being PRESSURED, so their only choice is to continue to fire their shots instead of reloading. However, at the range that pressure is usually applied, the Demoman just outright dies either by his aggressor or by his own explosive hands.
[quote]Demoknights have always been a crippled class. Since their inception, using a shield over the Sticky Launcher was known to be a bad idea by players who've been with the game long enough to know that Sticky Launcher is Demoman's key weapon. This is a problem inherent with both Valve's melee hit detection and a problem in that the Shield does not adequately provide the offense needed for the Demoman to even think twice about unequipping his Sticky Launcher.[/quote]
Just because it's cripplingly-laughable ineffectiveness doesn't make it less FUN (you know, the entire purpose of a game in the first place). As such, crippling the Demoknight subclass's only ranged option pretty much turns the 15~ weapons he's got to practical uselessness, might as well just melee people all the damn time. It doesn't change how well pub players do, but it just makes it a less viable option at higher levels of play (yes, I've seen people offclass as demoknight before with a moderate amount of success, mostly because they used their grenades).
[quote]Spammy mentality was solved pretty quickly once people realized that Cow Mangler 5000 was a crappy weapon, dealing less damage and taking more time to reload. Spammy mentality can once again be dissuaded when Demomen notice their direct contact grenades deal damage in the 60's rather than 100+. Soldier and Demomen were outright OP in TF2 beta, with their huge clip. That had to be solved by literally halving the clip size but keeping the weapon damage the same. It could've also been solved by keeping the clip the same size but drastically reducing its damage, but the other road was taken.[/quote]
Which would you rather have:
Few shots that deal decent spike damage or many shots that, when combined, deal the same damage? Fewer shots rewards good aim. Many shots will annoy targets because they have more bullshit to weave through before they can get close to the Demoman.
[quote]And you also mentioned that Demoman was a class designed to "blow shit up." How is a 6 clip Grenade Launcher not going to encourage "blowing shit up"? Not only would 6 clips fit the model more, (Why does it hold 4 pineapples when the model clearly shows 6 pineapple slots?) but it'd also make it somewhat more reliable like the Shotgun. When you're out of primary ammo and you need to reload, it's a saving grace to know you can switch to your secondary and know you have 6 attempts to kill the enemy, and if you miss, well, at least your weapon reloads a little faster than it did before.[/quote]
I'd rather see a 6-shot launcher as an alternative than as a complete re-balance of the stock. The entire essence of explosive spike damage is to kill shit outright, not knock them around while constantly chipping their health away with weak shots. That's why people don't like the Cow Mangler so much, because they'd rather outright kill their targets than deal less damage.
Also, with the way that the grenade projectiles are coded, they have no falloff at all. Lowering them to 60 damage as you suggested earlier makes them pretty piss-poor for self-defense (which is a place where it shines in comparison to the SL). If you can consistently 3+ shot people who get all up in your grill, then you'll probably still die since your opponents get an extra ~1 second to lay down hurt on your drunk ass. And no, you're likely to never see the TF team completely restructure the way that the grenade projectiles deal damage, so don't try to plead that it's the only way to fix it since it won't be happening.
[quote]I'm not nerfing things because they're powerful in my view. Demomen have consistently been the most OP class since TF2 Beta. Demoman has gone through more nerfs than Pyro has and still continues to be OP. (Just look at TF2 league class restrictions. 2 Soldiers is fine, but Demoman is limited to at maximum ONE)
I'm not the only one who has known that Demoman has been an OP class and I'm not the first one to have drawn the line and noticed that for a supplemental weapon, Grenade Launcher deals a lot of damage. (Potentially 3HKOing a Heavy, while it takes 4 or 5 Rockets)
For whatever reason, Facepunch is still completely oblivious to the fact that Demoman is still OP.[/QUOTE]
If the class as a whole is so blatantly overpowered, then why hasn't anyone proven that it's overpowered against anyone other than predictable players? There was a rather large thread on SPUF in the Demoman subsection challenging people to do just that, and on balanced maps. The last I checked, no one had been able to provide video proof in well over a year after the challenge was initiated. The Demoman is good, but he's not overpowered to the point of absurdity anymore.
You guys type too much.
[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;32597966]
For whatever reason, Facepunch is still completely oblivious to the fact that Demoman is still OP.[/QUOTE]
Because you're the only one on Facepunch that says that the Demoman is OP?
Seriously, there is no such thing as an OP class in TF2, or in anything, really. If you think something is OP, then instead of complaining about it, learn how to counter it.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32598262]If the Grenade Launcher is such an issue, then why aren't you addressing what is arguably considered a rocket launcher with twice the clipsize and constant threatening presence since you can detonate it whenever you want and will persist in the world upon contact.[/quote]
That's a 'problem' that can be reobserved after statistical analysis. In scientific (LOL Videogames and Science) analysis, one factor is held variable (Grenade Launcher) while the other factors are kept constant (Sticky Launcher + Bottle).
That's something the Beta should be trying out right now, and use community feedback to gauge how the Grenade Launcher and/or Sticky Launcher should be changed.
If the Grenade Launcher is nerfed and the pro community still finds Demoman to be too powerful to allow more than 1 of, then chances are it's not the Grenade Launcher that needs fixing, it's the Sticky Launcher. After that, you revert the Grenade Launcher and try tweaking the Sticky Launcher.
And I will admit, as stupid as the TF2 league communities are for banning weapons for stupid reasons, their reasons on class limitations have made very good sense.
[quote]Grenade launcher is an amazing weapon, it's way more reliable than the sticky launcher for hitting people directly because it detonates automatically on contact. Regardless of what you say, people run out of ammo even with smart ammo conservation because they're being PRESSURED, so their only choice is to continue to fire their shots instead of reloading. However, at the range that pressure is usually applied, the Demoman just outright dies either by his aggressor or by his own explosive hands.[/quote]
And the point I've been trying to get across is that perhaps it's probably too amazing. I'd rather have a Pyro with a 'supplemental weapon' (Grenade Launcher) rather than a 'primary weapon' (Flamethrower) on some maps or situations where I can't approach beyond midrange or risk imminent death.
Pressure can be relieved when the weapon reloads faster or has more clip. It's not as pressing of a matter to reload now as you've got two additional chances to hit the enemy. (Small clip is one of the reasons I will continue to say that Flare Gun just sucks. It has a single ammo clip. It's a piece of garbage if I have to sit through a reload animation between every attempt to hit a player.)
[quote]Just because it's cripplingly-laughable ineffectiveness doesn't make it less FUN (you know, the entire purpose of a game in the first place). As such, crippling the Demoknight subclass's only ranged option pretty much turns the 15~ weapons he's got to practical uselessness, might as well just melee people all the damn time. It doesn't change how well pub players do, but it just makes it a less viable option at higher levels of play (yes, I've seen people offclass as demoknight before with a moderate amount of success, mostly because they used their grenades).[/quote]
You're still thinking inside the box. You refuse to even acknowledge that the shield could be buffed one of many ways so that it's loss of offense makes it a viable item. (ie: Make Demoknighting viable)
Here's an easy one:
Shields replace secondary weapons (Grenade Launcher), Charge length is halved or cut by a third, and charge is performed by double tapping W.
Demoknights can be more effective and much more viable if they have their Sticky Launcher, and instead choosing to unequip a Grenade Launcher secondary for a more powerful melee option. It would also open up new option for charge-jumps where you charge over a sticky and sticky jump for quick forward movement. Then make Ali Baba's Wee Booties a functional Demoman equivalent of Mantread and/or Gunboats, because they'd be pointless without being equipped with both a melee weapon and a shield.
[Quote]Which would you rather have:
Few shots that deal decent spike damage or many shots that, when combined, deal the same damage? Fewer shots rewards good aim. Many shots will annoy targets because they have more bullshit to weave through before they can get close to the Demoman.[/quote]
You're not asking the correct question. The pressing matter I want solved is Demoman to not be as OP as he was before. I'm merely suggesting that his supplemental weapon not be as powerful as a primary weapon. Whether that means spike damage or cluster shots, or whatever, I seriously don't care. The problem can be solved a multitude of ways and I've only suggested a single one.
[quote]I'd rather see a 6-shot launcher as an alternative than as a complete re-balance of the stock. The entire essence of explosive spike damage is to kill shit outright, not knock them around while constantly chipping their health away with weak shots. That's why people don't like the Cow Mangler so much, because they'd rather outright kill their targets than deal less damage.[/quote]
People don't like Cow Mangler 5000 because it effectively has more nerfs than it has buffs.
People like the mini-crit laser. That's a fact.
People don't care that it requires no ammo. Decent players who already have a foundation in the game are already walking over fallen weapons to resupply their Rocket Launcher's ammo. People don't care about the 5th projectile, because it makes it take that much longer to refire the mini-crit laser.
And then it has a long length of debuffs, including -10% damage (mini-crits barely deal an effective 109 damage after the mini-crit boost), no random critical hits, cannot be crit boosted, -5% reload speed (It takes 5 entire seconds to before you can begin to charge up your next weak-as-piss mini-crit laser), and the final nail in the coffin, it can't outright destroy Sentry Guns.
Cow Mangler 5000 just isn't worth it at all after 1 stat is sort of like, 2 stats are don't cares, and 5 others are just plain negatives.
[quote]Also, with the way that the grenade projectiles are coded, they have no falloff at all. Lowering them to 60 damage as you suggested earlier makes them pretty piss-poor for self-defense (which is a place where it shines in comparison to the SL). If you can consistently 3+ shot people who get all up in your grill, then you'll probably still die since your opponents get an extra ~1 second to lay down hurt on your drunk ass. And no, you're likely to never see the TF team completely restructure the way that the grenade projectiles deal damage, so don't try to plead that it's the only way to fix it since it won't be happening.[/quote]
Okay. Then perhaps nerfing the Grenade Launcher would make Demoman less OP in the way that it would give more opportunities for classes to zone him into close range where can't defend himself. One way to nerf him is to reduce the amount of encounters where he has a direct advantage. If the new Grenade Launcher prevents self defense that may just work out for a Demoman balance.
Who knows, it may present a new problem where Demoman may be too underpowered because Scouts might be a solid counter. That's why balance changes need to be tested in TF2 beta.
[quote]If the class as a whole is so blatantly overpowered, then why hasn't anyone proven that it's overpowered against anyone other than predictable players? There was a rather large thread on SPUF in the Demoman subsection challenging people to do just that, and on balanced maps. The last I checked, no one had been able to provide video proof in well over a year after the challenge was initiated. The Demoman is good, but he's not overpowered to the point of absurdity anymore.[/QUOTE]
I never said he absurdly overpowered, I said that as a general rule most other classes have a supplemental weapon that's much less potent than their primary weapon. Demoman is still too good of a class (especially when compared to much less powerful classes like the Pyro) to have supplemental weapon that rivals other primary weapons in power.
[QUOTE=Krandel;32598368]Because you're the only one on Facepunch that says that the Demoman is OP?
Seriously, there is no such thing as an OP class in TF2, or in anything, really. If you think something is OP, then instead of complaining about it, learn how to counter it.[/QUOTE]
You're showing your naivety in discussion you really have no idea about.
Let's talk about Pokemon, since you're avatar is Blaziken. You say nothing is OP in TF2 or in "anything really". I'd like to see you make a team full of UU (under used) or NU (never used) Pokemon and attempt to beat a similarly skilled player with a team full of OU (over used) or Uber Pokemon. (Hint: It's just not going to happen, there's a reason why Pokemon are divided into categories reflecting their rate of usage in Pokemon battles and the odds of a team winning with that Pokemon included in the winning team.)
It's not a matter of skill or just merely 'countering' something. There's a baseline where something just has much better matchups against something else. As a result of two entities not having the exact same stats, properties, speed, power, etc then the two are inherently unequal.
Imagine a fighting game where there's only one character to choose. The fighting game is balanced, as both players use the same character and are open to use the same strategies against each other.
The moment the fighting game releases a second copy where there's a new 2nd character added who differs from the first by having a slightly stronger KICK attack but slightly weaker PUNCH attack, then the game is unbalanced. Character 2 could be a better character overall for the mere reason that because KICK attacks have more range than PUNCH attacks and because Character 2 does more damage with his KICK attack, then Character 2 is better. The characters' playstyles would revolve around playing to their strengths (either PUNCH or KICK) and because Character 2 can constantly outrange Character 1 with his KICK attacks, then Character 1 is fighting a battle on an inclined hill. The odds are definitely against him.
You could then argue that Character 2 needs to be balanced by either slowing down his KICK animation, making it less powerful, decreasing its range, or by giving Character 1 some other kind of buff.
And I'm sure you'd also argue that there's no such thing as 'tiers' in fighting games either.
Loads a text
Great Wall of Facepunch, in words.
[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;32598769]That's a 'problem' that can be reobserved after statistical analysis. In scientific (LOL Videogames and Science) analysis, one factor is held variable (Grenade Launcher) while the other factors are kept constant (Sticky Launcher + Bottle).
That's something the Beta should be trying out right now, and use community feedback to gauge how the Grenade Launcher and/or Sticky Launcher should be changed.
If the Grenade Launcher is nerfed and the pro community still finds Demoman to be too powerful to allow more than 1 of, then chances are it's not the Grenade Launcher that needs fixing, it's the Sticky Launcher. After that, you revert the Grenade Launcher and try tweaking the Sticky Launcher.
And I will admit, as stupid as the TF2 league communities are for banning weapons for stupid reasons, their reasons on class limitations have made very good sense.
[/quote]
They have actual reasons for limiting and/or banning things. You should read up on them and be enlightened.
The reason that they only allow 1 Demoman is because of the Sticky Launcher and its ability to restrict access to an area just by planting a few stickies. At most, a Demoman can reasonably cover 2 passages by himself. Adding in another Demoman pretty much forces the game into a standstill until someone breaks through with an Ubercharge or a sacrifice.
[quote]And the point I've been trying to get across is that perhaps it's probably too amazing. I'd rather have a Pyro with a 'supplemental weapon' (Grenade Launcher) rather than a 'primary weapon' (Flamethrower) on some maps or situations where I can't approach beyond midrange or risk imminent death.[/quote]
I'd rather that I have 2 weapons that are worth a damn and compliment one another well than a couple weapons that don't work well together. The Grenade Launcher supplements the Stickybomb Launcher's short range shortcomings and the inverse holds true for the Stickybomb Launcher
[quote]Pressure can be relieved when the weapon reloads faster or has more clip. It's not as pressing of a matter to reload now as you've got two additional chances to hit the enemy. (Small clip is one of the reasons I will continue to say that Flare Gun just sucks. It has a single ammo clip. It's a piece of garbage if I have to sit through a reload animation between every attempt to hit a player.)[/quote]
Pressure isn't relieved as long as the aggressor still lives. Outright killing someone will give the player a grace period in which to regather themself (unless another aggressor interrupts them).
And the Flare Gun only "sucks" against things that cannot be set on fire. It supplements the Flamethrower's lack of long-midrange capabilities with its own, however it sacrifices the Shotgun's close-range capabilities. It's a tradeoff and it's considered the most balanced sidegrade in the game right after the Kritzkrieg.
[quote]You're still thinking inside the box. You refuse to even acknowledge that the shield could be buffed one of many ways so that it's loss of offense makes it a viable item. (ie: Make Demoknighting viable)
Here's an easy one:
Shields replace secondary weapons (Grenade Launcher), Charge length is halved or cut by a third, and charge is performed by double tapping W.
Demoknights can be more effective and much more viable if they have their Sticky Launcher, and instead choosing to unequip a Grenade Launcher secondary for a more powerful melee option. It would also open up new option for charge-jumps where you charge over a sticky and sticky jump for quick forward movement.[/quote]
You're not going to convince the TF team to recode this, just work with what is realistic and you'll reduce the headache of never seeing anything you say come to fruition.
[quote]You're not asking the correct question. The pressing matter I want solved is Demoman to not be as OP as he was before. I'm merely suggesting that his supplemental weapon not be as powerful as a primary weapon.
Whether that means spike damage or cluster shots, or whatever, I seriously don't care. The problem can be solved a multitude of ways and I've only suggested a single one.[/quote]
I'd rather have 2 weapons that are complimentary than have 2 weapons that aren't. People use the Grenade Launcher as a primary weapon too, you know. The game isn't strictly forcing people to use the Stickybomb Launcher.
[quote]People don't like Cow Mangler 5000 because it effectively has more nerfs than it has buffs.
People like the mini-crit laser. That's a fact.
People don't care that it requires no ammo. Decent players who already have a foundation in the game are already walking over fallen weapons to resupply their Rocket Launcher's ammo. People don't care about the 5th projectile, because it makes it take that much longer to refire the mini-crit laser.
And then it has a long length of debuffs, including -10% damage (mini-crits barely deal an effective 109 damage after the mini-crit boost), no random critical hits, cannot be crit boosted, -5% reload speed (It takes 5 entire seconds to before you can begin to charge up your next weak-as-piss mini-crit laser), and the final nail in the coffin, it can't outright destroy Sentry Guns.
Cow Mangler 5000 just isn't worth it at all after 1 stat is sort of like, 2 stats are don't cares, and 5 others are just plain negatives.[/quote]
Okay, the weapon has 2 downsides and 1 aggravation. The rest aren't downsides.
The only downsides are the lower damage and the increased reload time (5% is SO FUCKING MUCH, RIGHT!?). The aggravation is the cannot be crit boosted because it hurts kritzkrieg medics.
Everything else relates to it's OPTIONAL ability to charge a shot. Piss off if you think that's a downside.
[quote]Okay. Then perhaps nerfing the Grenade Launcher would make Demoman less OP in the way that it would give more opportunities for classes to zone him into close range where can't defend himself.
One way to nerf him is to reduce the amount of encounters where he has a direct advantage. If the new Grenade Launcher prevents self defense that may just work out for a Demoman balance.[/quote]
The demoman has to be capable of defending himself, not be royally fucked just because someone got within spitball distance of him. He's BAD at defending himself because his only forms of self defense are projectile based and will hurt him. That doesn't mean he will lose, it just means that he will PROBABLY lose unless he's SKILLFUL.
[quote]I never said he absurdly overpowered, I said that as a general rule most other classes have a supplemental weapon that's much less potent than their primary weapon.
Demoman is still too good of a class (especially when compared to much less powerful classes like the Pyro) to have supplemental weapon that rivals other primary weapons in power.[/QUOTE]
I'll end this fucking back and forth argument with this:
Supplements are not what the game relies on, weapons are compliments of one another. That synergy is what makes weapons worth using in conjunction since they work well together. The game has the classes given certain weapons to compliment their other weapons and that is where most of the class balancing has been centered around. The Flare Gun COMPLIMENTS the Flamethrowers, the Ubersaw COMPLIMENTS the Mediguns, the Shotgun COMPLIMENTS the Rocket Launcher, and the Grenade Launcher COMPLIMENTS the Stickybomb Launcher.
[QUOTE=Cructo;32599071]What are they discussing? I don't want to read a wall of text.[/QUOTE]
Demo is OP
No he's not
[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;32598769]
You're showing your naivety in discussion you really have idea about.
Let's talk about Pokemon, since you're avatar is Blaziken. You say nothing is OP in TF2 or in "anything really". I'd like to see you make a team full of UU (under used) or NU (never used) Pokemon and attempt to beat a similarly skilled player with a team full of OU (over used) or Uber Pokemon. (Hint: It's just not going to happen, there's a reason why Pokemon are divided into categories reflecting their rate of usage in Pokemon battles and the odds of a team winning with that Pokemon included in the winning team.)[/QUOTE]
Funny you should say this, as I do have a team of mostly UU pokemon and I have beaten teams of OP and Uber pokemon easily.
[QUOTE]It's not a matter of skill or just merely 'countering' something. There's a baseline where something just has much better matchups against something else. As a result of two entities not having the exact same stats, properties, speed, power, etc then the two are inherently unequal.[/QUOTE]
Actually, yes. It is a matter of skill. If you are good at a game, you can easily counter any opponent regardless of the character you, and your opponent, use.
[QUOTE]Imagine a fighting game where there's only one character to choose. The fighting game is balanced, as both players use the same character and are open to use the same strategies against each other.
The moment the fighting game releases a second copy where there's a new 2nd character added who differs from the first by having a slightly stronger KICK attack but slightly weaker PUNCH attack, then the game is unbalanced. Character 2 could be a better character overall for the mere reason that because KICK attacks have more range than PUNCH attacks and because Character 2 does more damage with his KICK attack, then Character 2 is better. The characters' playstyles would revolve around playing to their strengths (either PUNCH or KICK) and because Character 2 can constantly outrange Character 1 with his KICK attacks, then Character 1 is fighting a battle on an inclined hill. The odds are definitely against him.
You could then argue that Character 2 needs to be balanced by either slowing down his KICK animation, making it less powerful, decreasing its range, or by giving Character 1 some other kind of buff.[/QUOTE]
Well, of course it would be unbalanced, there's only two characters. Unless they have the same stats, one will always be superior to the other.
[QUOTE]And I'm sure you'd also argue that there's no such thing as 'tiers' in fighting games either.[/QUOTE]
You're right about that. Personally, I think that tiers are pointless as, like I stated earlier, if you have enough skill you can easily counter any other character in a game, but I'm not going to hate you or anyone else for believing in them, that's just not the kind of guy I am.
I think the fundamental problem with thinking that classes like the Soldier and Demoman are overpowered is that the entire concept of a push becomes alien to the game.
If some classes do not have an advantage over other classes in larger groups, then you will never be able to formulate a good sense of teamwork. Soldiers have weaknesses, Demomen have weaknesses, Heavy has weaknesses. I don't foresee any serious changes to the first two at this point, though I do think that Heavy will eventually be cut down again (if only slightly).
and hey, the Cow Mangler isn't that bad. you gain a larger ability to pick off stragglers with your extra rockets, and rocket-jumping leaves you with one more laser in the tube.
You think x class is OP?
make it your priority target.
Reminds me of the last time I went on SPUF. Everyone was crying about how the Heavy is so OP and his only reliable counter is another Heavy and it's so broken.
Wait, I just checked, they're still doing that.
[QUOTE=Don Knotts;32599614]Reminds me of the last time I went on SPUF. Everyone was crying about how the Heavy is so OP and his only reliable counter is another Heavy and it's so broken.
Wait, I just checked, they're still doing that.[/QUOTE]That's because Heavy actually [i]is[/i] pretty ridiculous :v:
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32599679]That's because Heavy actually [i]is[/i] pretty ridiculous :v:[/QUOTE]
True, but any class can still take him out if they're good enough.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32599679]That's because Heavy actually [i]is[/i] pretty ridiculous :v:[/QUOTE]
A huntsman Sniper can one-shot him from medium-close range. A Sniper can oneshot him even if he is overhealed. Spy's can backstab him if his focus is elsewhere.
Scouts can weapon heckle him and double jump all over the fucking place around him.
Demoman can lure him into a sticky trap thats placed on a wall so he can't see it.
Soldiers can corner camp and shoot rockets at him.
This list can go on....
[QUOTE=mutated;32599153]
and hey, the Cow Mangler isn't that bad. you gain a larger ability to pick off stragglers with your extra rockets, and rocket-jumping leaves you with one more laser in the tube.[/QUOTE]
It also has an annoying projectile that can be really hard to judge distance on.
[QUOTE=Cructo;32599272]Whoever thinks something is OP needs to adapt more.[/QUOTE]
New weapon introduced. Kills everyone on the map instantly. Well, time to adapt!
[QUOTE=Fartbomb222;32599889]A huntsman Sniper can one-shot him from medium-close range. A Sniper can oneshot him even if he is overhealed. Spy's can backstab him if his focus is elsewhere.
Scouts can weapon heckle him and double jump all over the fucking place around him.
Demoman can lure him into a sticky trap thats placed on a wall so he can't see it.
Soldiers can corner camp and shoot rockets at him.
This list can go on....[/QUOTE]Heavy can jar the Sniper's aim. Spy is unreliable if the Heavy is in good communication with his team and has spacial awareness.
Scouts can't heckle him very well when he can respond almost instantly with lead. Thankfully the Tomislav isn't as ridiculous as it used to be.
It's not hard to hear a sticky trap being planted and not intentionally lumbering that way.
Requiring that everyone run and hide or they'll get shredded to bits doesn't mean the class is balanced.
Sure, it's still possible to beat a heavy, but it requires that the people facing the heavy outplay him by a wide margin whereas the heavy doesn't have to do much skillful actions at all.
Hey guys I'm just dropping by just to see whats go-
[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;32589662]
As I've already explained before Pyro just sucks at medium range and long range. His only saving graces as an offensive class are his/her low skill ceiling particle shooting weapon (Flamethrower), afterburn application, and a decent 175 HP bulk.[/QUOTE]Aaaaand I'm gone.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32599067]They have actual reasons for limiting and/or banning things. You should read up on them and be enlightened.
The reason that they only allow 1 Demoman is because of the Sticky Launcher and its ability to restrict access to an area just by planting a few stickies. At most, a Demoman can reasonably cover 2 passages by himself. Adding in another Demoman pretty much forces the game into a standstill until someone breaks through with an Ubercharge or a sacrifice.[/quote]
These are called chokepoints and it's not so much a problem with Demoman, it's more so that the chokepoint is too choked. The map isn't well designed if a Demoman can cover two exits solo by himself. (And that's with Scouts/Soldiers constantly defusing stickies by shooting them) That's also related to the fact that the most common league game type puts 6 players per team. In larger game types (ex: Highlander 9 players) a single Demoman can't cover the same two exits against 9 players constantly defusing stickies.
Engineer's buildings strength also revolve around chokepoints, but Engineer's rather underpowered because even though he got the chance to move his buildings, he's just not as mobile as he needs to be to keep up with the battlefield. He can at times have a more powerful defense than Demoman, depending on the situation.
[quote]I'd rather that I have 2 weapons that are worth a damn and compliment one another well than a couple weapons that don't work well together. The Grenade Launcher supplements the Stickybomb Launcher's short range shortcomings and the inverse holds true for the Stickybomb Launcher
Pressure isn't relieved as long as the aggressor still lives. Outright killing someone will give the player a grace period in which to regather themself (unless another aggressor interrupts them).[/quote]
You say this as if making a change to Grenade Launcher that effectively is:
+50% Clip
+30 ~ 50% Reload Speed
+30 ~ 50% More Ammo Carried
+10 ~ 15% Refire Rate
-45% Damage
Completely changes and destroys the weapon so awfully bad that Demoman would become more underpowered than Pyro. (He won't be, so quit crying. It was a suggestion that you've completely overblown and seemingly have gotten mad about.)
[quote]And the Flare Gun only "sucks" against things that cannot be set on fire. It supplements the Flamethrower's lack of long-midrange capabilities with its own, however it sacrifices the Shotgun's close-range capabilities. It's a tradeoff and it's considered the most balanced sidegrade in the game right after the Kritzkrieg.[/quote]
I'm going to require a [Citation Needed] for the Flare Gun statistic.
6 Clip Hitscan Shotgun that Out-DPSes Primary...
Or...
1 Clip (slow reloading) projectile Flare Gun that sets enemies (which I can't reach to finish off) on fire, only to have them return in 3 - 4 seconds after they are airblasted/jarateed/mad milk/medkit/healed/sandvich/steak/etc.
No. I'm not going to believe it until I see a reputable source of where you found that statement.
[quote]You're not going to convince the TF team to recode this, just work with what is realistic and you'll reduce the headache of never seeing anything you say come to fruition.[/quote]
That's absolutely true. TF2 is so wrapped up in garbage that it's currently a mess. Because they chose to ignore balance issues which were evident to players and brought up when the weapon was still fresh in the game, they've let the stats and balance issues stagnate so much that almost any change would be met with a huge backlash in public opinion, unless it was a complete and utter buff. (People certainly wouldn't complain if the Claidheamh Mor's extended charge duration became +1 second instead of +.5 seconds)
I would hope when Valve makes TF3 (or whatever) they take a good, intensely long look at every single class and every single weapon and dissect what worked (Because A, Because B, Because C), what didn't work (Because A, Because B, Because C) and then give a solid attempt to get multiple ways to fix it before it ships in TF3 (Balance A, Balance B, Balance C).
TF2 is so entrenched in garbage that it's honestly beyond saving at this point. I would hope many fixes are implemented before TF3 is launched so I can once again enjoy a (somewhat) polished product again.
[quote]I'd rather have 2 weapons that are complimentary than have 2 weapons that aren't. People use the Grenade Launcher as a primary weapon too, you know. The game isn't strictly forcing people to use the Stickybomb Launcher.[/quote]
You say this as if making a change to Grenade Launcher would completely ruin it. Already addressed before...
[quote]Okay, the weapon has 2 downsides and 1 aggravation. The rest aren't downsides.
The only downsides are the lower damage and the increased reload time (5% is SO FUCKING MUCH, RIGHT!?). The aggravation is the cannot be crit boosted because it hurts kritzkrieg medics.
Everything else relates to it's OPTIONAL ability to charge a shot. Piss off if you think that's a downside.[/quote]
Calm down. Looks like you're getting too emotionally invested in an argument about video games.
Like I said before, the very fact that it has a 5th 'rocket,' combined with -5% reload time, combined with the fact that the weapon's biggest redeeming feature, a mini-crit laser with large explosive radius and afterburn application, uses all 5 rockets make it seem like it reloads way too slow to bother with.
People want to use the mini-crit laser almost exclusively. I admit, I do too, but the 5th rocket actually works against using the mini-crit laser often. Like I said before, you're a sitting duck for 5 seconds of solid reloading, and that's not even counting the 2 seconds of charging up the Cow Mangler 5000 before the mini-crit laser is fired.
[quote]The demoman has to be capable of defending himself, not be royally fucked just because someone got within spitball distance of him. He's BAD at defending himself because his only forms of self defense are projectile based and will hurt him. That doesn't mean he will lose, it just means that he will PROBABLY lose unless he's SKILLFUL.[/quote]
If he was supposedly 'skillful' everything would die as soon as it approached medium distance, where his grenade launcher and sticky launcher murder everything. But not everything works out as planned, so like I said before, making Demoman's (only?) weakness a bit more pronounced may just be just the thing to balance him.
[quote]I'll end this fucking back and forth argument with this:[/quote]
Again with the emotional investment in an argument about video games...
[quote]Supplements are not what the game relies on, weapons are compliments of one another. That synergy is what makes weapons worth using in conjunction since they work well together. The game has the classes given certain weapons to compliment their other weapons and that is where most of the class balancing has been centered around. The Flare Gun COMPLIMENTS the Flamethrowers, the Ubersaw COMPLIMENTS the Mediguns, the Shotgun COMPLIMENTS the Rocket Launcher, and the Grenade Launcher COMPLIMENTS the Stickybomb Launcher.[/QUOTE]
Funny you should mention the Ubersaw, that thing is basically almost a straight upgrade from the Bone Saw. It needs to be nerfed so it can be an adequate 'sidegrade'.
A grenade launcher with slightly different stats doesn't mean it no longer complements the sticky launcher. Mechanically it still shoots grenades and it still kills enemies, but not to the extreme where it was before, where it could sometimes 1-shot a jumping Scout who was slightly damaged after a whiffed meat-shot grazed him.
You're completely overreacting.
[QUOTE=Krandel;32599113]Funny you should say this, as I do have a team of mostly UU pokemon and I have beaten teams of OP and Uber pokemon easily.[/quote]
I'd like to know more about your team, items held, movesets, and the same for your opponent's Pokemon.
I can brag about having good movesets on weaker Pokemon, like Quagsire, and say I've beaten Uber Pokemon like Kyogre as well. But in these cases, I'm usually battling a complete novice who did nothing but equip Water-Type attacks which do nothing against a Water-Absorb Quagsire who's spamming Earthquake.
[quote]Actually, yes. It is a matter of skill. If you are good at a game, you can easily counter any opponent regardless of the character you, and your opponent, use.[/quote]
"Easily"
No. When you use low tier characters in a fighting game such as Super Street Fighter 4 AE such as El Fuerte against a banned tier character such as Evil Ryu between two internationally famous and competent competitive players (such as Daigo and Justin Wong), then the player using El Fuerte will almost certainly lose.
Tiers are a guide, they are not a rule. Between two similarly skilled players, there is a correlated match up between two different game characters. Tiers/OP/UP and balance issues are discussed in every game that pits two players against each other. Even RTS games have constant calls for balancing (SC2, etc)
[quote]Well, of course it would be unbalanced, there's only two characters. Unless they have the same stats, one will always be superior to the other.[/quote]
You misunderstand. That is the simplest form to explain UP and OP in the sense of a fighting game. It assumes the bare minimum. There are only two characters, there are only two attacks. Even such a 'simple' game can be immediately unbalanced from something as small as a kick having more damage than another character's kick.
The balance problem is that much more difficult to solve when there are 9 classes, 100s of weapons, 1000s of loadout combinations, 100s of maps, etc.
You just don't notice these small problems that would otherwise be unnoticeable in these games. Only once you unwrap that large overlaying problems will you begin to understand that there were many more balance issues that took a back seat and were unnoticed.
[quote]You're right about that. Personally, I think that tiers are pointless as, like I stated earlier, if you have enough skill you can easily counter any other character in a game, but I'm not going to hate you or anyone else for believing in them, that's just not the kind of guy I am.[/QUOTE]
It's not a 'belief.' I don't believe in anything. I don't put faith into what I cannot measure. Tiers, matchups, etc are statistical outcome that can be measured between two players who roughly have an even match up and win 50/50 against each other.
Refusing to acknowledge that there's a statistical difference (the game is hard coded to use numbers for range, damage, speed (time frames), physics, etc) between two different entities in a game means you don't have a fundamental understanding of that makes video games video games and what makes real life real.
Hey, 20% slower swing speed is somewhat a downgrade!
In the time it took 5 swings of an ubersaw you could've done 6 with a regular one
These words hurt my small brain.
[QUOTE=Joey JoJo;32600621]-Possibly related to some form of social disorder-[/QUOTE]
In the amount of time you two have been bickering I've enjoyed 3 different instances of TF2, 1 Monopoly match, and still had enough time to enjoy dinner and a movie.
Quit wasting your time with these posts.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32599679]That's because Heavy actually [i]is[/i] pretty ridiculous :v:[/QUOTE]
The Heavy was specifically [i]designed[/i] to be a powerhouse. A single class that can define the front line. He's ment to be a killing machine, you just have to exploit the Heavies many weaknesses and nine times out of ten you will drop him with a smart play. Problem is people don't want to think, they want to shoot.
[QUOTE=Don Knotts;32601091]The Heavy was specifically [i]designed[/i] to be a powerhouse. A single class that can define the front line. He's ment to be a killing machine, you just have to exploit the Heavies many weaknesses and nine times out of ten you will drop him with a smart play. Problem is people don't want to think, they want to shoot.[/QUOTE]
Okay, so what are his weaknesses? Each of them has been mitigated starting with the Sandvich being given the alt-fire, then followed by the 118th update messing with his spinup speed, Gloves of Running Urgently, Fists of Steel, Buffalo Steak Sandvich getting the same alt-fire functionality as the Sandvich, and more recently: Tomislav.
The only weaknesses that have stayed in tact is that he's a big target and he requires a line of sight to damage people.
Joey just stop man.
It's getting pretty boring seeing a bunch of new posts and going in to reveal that it's all just GREAT WALLS OF TEXT
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;32601339]The only weaknesses that have stayed in tact is that he's a big target and he requires a line of sight to damage people.[/QUOTE]
in before minigun that launches pipebombs and also has no spinup time
and also puts him on a diet
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