[QUOTE=pdecezon;34448120]backpedaling and dodging at 77% speed isn't effective enough to warrant the inability to provide yourself or your medic buddy burst healing. it's more effective to swap to the GRU if you want to dodge or backpedal and toss yourself a sandvich if you need burst heali-[/quote]
Backpedaling and dodging [i]while shooting back[/i]. (Something that the [Primary], GRU, and Sandvich can't do, unless you leave yourself vulnerable long enough to switch to stop shooting, switch to sandvich, drop it, pick it up, switch back, and either attempt to run away, or rev up again. In which case you could be dead by that time anyway)
We really need the bad reading rating back.
[quote]oh. you're one of those guys.[/quote]
:I
[quote]e: shotgun heavy is super fun btw, but I don't get why people insist that it's as viable as the sandvich.[/QUOTE]
Because not everybody wants burst healing. I'd rather have a versatile, reliable, sidearm. If I die because I don't have a sandvich, oh well. I'd rather not have only 1 viable method of attacking, it severely limits what a class can do, such as the Arabian Demo set.
[editline]29th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=SleepyAl;34448719]
I think the Tomislav should have a degreaser effect, where it makes you switch weapons faster, and allow the Heavy to switch during spin-down. Add that buff on top of the beta's stats now, and it makes Tomislav heavies more fearsome if they have the KGB or shotgun. They still suck directly against other Heavies and the gun doesn't deal as much damage, but it allows them to focus more on the shotgun, which is great for killing Scouts and helps the Heavy deal with other classes. The Heavy can charge forward with his shotgun to get into a good position to spin up his gun, so instead of just tanking the damage as he gets close he can instead fight back along the way until he gets close enough to rev his gun. He still has a slow spinup and doesn't do as much damage as a regular minigun, but it trades that for better positioning and quicker reaction. It also gives him a a chance to hurt a Pyro if he gets flamed and primed for an axstinguish (he's still pretty much doomed unless he gets a meatshot on the Pyro quickly)
Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
I agree with this. Faster switching for Heavy would be much more viable than an almost instant-rev Minigun. It could negate the bad effects of the Fists of Steel, but at the cost of less primary Firepower. KBG, as you said, would become a better option when used with faster weapon switching and the Shotgun/Family Business. If the Tomislav was like that, I'd actually have to contemplate using it. It could be used in conjunction with alot of Heavy's melee weapons, which would encourage more Heavies to use them, as most Heavy's mindsets are only with the Minigun. I'd like this.
[QUOTE=SleepyAl;34448719]I think the Tomislav should have a degreaser effect, where it makes you switch weapons faster, and allow the Heavy to switch during spin-down. Add that buff on top of the beta's stats now, and it makes Tomislav heavies more fearsome if they have the KGB or shotgun. They still suck directly against other Heavies and the gun doesn't deal as much damage, but it allows them to focus more on the shotgun, which is great for killing Scouts and helps the Heavy deal with other classes etc.
Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
I always thought a switch-time increase similar to the Reserve Shooter would have made sense with the Family Business pack as a whole, seeing as the secondary and melee weapons don't have any special abilities outside of dealing damage. AKA it would have made sense to be able to switch between them (slightly) faster so you can actually make use of your other weapons. But I feel if a primary weapon like the Tomislav gives passive bonuses like weapon switch time, it needs some more downsides in order to further encourage making use of the bonus.
(Just a half-baked idea, but something like reduced mobility with your primary weapon, on top of weapon switch-time, makes the shotguns more viable for getting around. Half-baked because hindered mobility is pretty bad on Heavy, and I don't like forcing weapons into specific pairings even if Valve does it to hell and back.)
good riddance, tomislav was a fucking awful weapon to begin with and it never shouldve been implemented
Nerfing the sandvich removes a whole gameplay style of the heavy in my opinion, heavy is a fairly easy class to defeat one on one so he needed that sandvich help on the move. Rarely do you have time in combat to eat a sandvich, and you can't always escape to a safe place, you are usually being chased down in those situations. I never saw this as a problem before and I doubt anyone did otherwise surely it would have been addressed ages ago. I hope this does not make the main game.
[QUOTE=GastricTank;34448828]Backpedaling and dodging [i]while shooting back[/i]. (Something that the [Primary], GRU, and Sandvich can't do, unless you leave yourself vulnerable long enough to switch to stop shooting, switch to sandvich, drop it, pick it up, switch back, and either attempt to run away, or rev up again. In which case you could be dead by that time anyway)[/QUOTE]
GRU + sandvich toss is a more effective method of escape than jumping backwards while doing moderately okay damage at 77% speed nearly all of the time. I'd very much like you to prove me wrong
[QUOTE=GastricTank;34448828]We really need the bad reading rating back. [/QUOTE]
you really love your 16x16 icons don't you? it's almost like they do the arguing for you!
(they don't though :x)
[QUOTE=GastricTank;34448828]:I[/QUOTE]
thanks for the contribution. I understand your position on this argument better because of this response
[QUOTE=GastricTank;34448828]not everybody wants burst healing. I'd rather have a versatile, reliable, sidearm.[/QUOTE]
That's dandy but it doesn't make it any more viable. When I play pyro I usually go degreaser/reserve shooter/backscratcher because it's more fun and I like the playstyle but that doesn't mean it's as viable as degreaser/flare/axtinguisher (aka the prince of pyro loadouts).
[QUOTE=1 Duck;34449756]heavy is a fairly easy class to defeat one on one[/QUOTE]
something tells me the only heavies you've bumped into are heavies that couldn't track a crouching soldier.
e: al actually brought up what I consider the only viable reason to carry the shotgun as a heavy, but good positioning and avoiding overextension keeps you safe from snipers a lot of the time. know where they tend to scope in on and avoid those areas.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34449921]
something tells me the only heavies you've bumped into are heavies that couldn't track a crouching soldier.
[/QUOTE]
Not at all. If you do it right you can beat the most skilful heavy.
well thanks for enlightening us on your class specific and fool proof tactics for dealing with heavies headon. very effective argument.
The Tomislav nerf is completely preposterous. The Sandvich nerf would be acceptable if they removed the Sandvich cooldown for eating, otherwise it's merely spineless capitulating to the senseless whims of SPUF.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;34450186]The Tomislav nerf is completely preposterous. The Sandvich nerf would be acceptable if they removed the Sandvich cooldown for eating, otherwise it's merely spineless capitulating to the senseless whims of SPUF.[/QUOTE]
The thing still fully heals him. He doesn't need to eat it more than once.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;34450186]The Tomislav nerf is completely preposterous.[/QUOTE]
How so? minor upside for minor downside, plus it would be used as intended: ambushing and flanking as opposed to just having the ability to instantly react to flanking (something the heavy was designed to be weak against)
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34450288]How so? minor upside for minor downside, plus it would be used as intended: ambushing and flanking as opposed to just having the ability to instantly react to flanking (something the heavy was designed to be weak against)[/QUOTE]
You're an idiot. The Tomislav would be useless; the noise cancellation is too exiguous an upside to be balanced with the downside. Tomislav would be as useless as the Natascha--a clear downgrade, not a sidegrade.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;34450400]Tomislav would be as useless as the Natascha--a clear downgrade, not a sidegrade.[/QUOTE]
better than minor downside for an extremely powerful upside and a minor upside as a bonus
I've seen a nice proposal for it though. 40% decreased revdown time taking place of the lower revup time. Encourages the ambushing and compliments the silent rev nicely as opposed to breaking the heavy's original design.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34450597]better than minor downside for an extremely powerful upside and a minor upside as a bonus
I've seen a nice proposal for it though. 40% decreased revdown time taking place of the lower revup time. Encourages the ambushing and compliments the silent rev nicely as opposed to breaking the heavy's original design.[/QUOTE]
So you're trading one perceived imbalance for an imbalance that you find more amenable to your personal tastes. That's [I]MUCH[/I] better. It's because of people like you that weapons like Natascha were rendered naught but scrap manufacturers.
lol only a heavy main would try to deny that the tomislav's current state and the natscha's pre nerf state are/were both okay.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34450674]lol only a heavy main would try to deny that the tomislav's current state and the natscha's pre nerf state are/were both okay.[/QUOTE]
You use the term "Heavy main" in a pejorative sense. How classy. Go back to SPUF and whine there.
You keep using uncommon and overly formal language to cover up your inadequacy, it's funny
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34450805]You keep using uncommon and overly formal language to cover up your inadequacy, it's funny[/QUOTE]
And you somehow see fit to omit periods from the ending of your sentences. I suppose that makes you further learned than I.
Needless to say, there's nothing but your conjecture to prove that I somehow harbor feelings of inadequacy.
this argument is stupid
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;34450841]And you somehow see fit to omit periods from the ending of your sentences. I suppose that makes you further learned than I.
Needless to say, there's nothing but your conjecture to prove that I somehow harbor feelings of inadequacy.[/QUOTE]
lol you're still doing it
Back on the topic of the proposed tomislav nerf I mentioned a few posts ago (which you have not addressed yet), that would be pretty optimal honestly. The old health nerf wasn't even very fitting and this recent nerf is a tad overkill.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34450130]well thanks for enlightening us on your class specific and fool proof tactics for dealing with heavies headon. very effective argument.[/QUOTE]
That's like saying how do you deal with a sniper from a far with no cover. Heavy's strength is close quarter combat. Besides, a scout can jump around the heavy, 3/4 shots and the heavy is dead. Soldier, 2 rockets and shotgun pull out will do the job. Even easier if you knock the heavy back or into the air to disorient him. Similar with demo. Pyro, flame, airblast, either shoot him using flare gun or reserve shooter, or use axetinguisher.
all of those proposals are either inaccurate or assuming the heavy is terrible at aiming.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34451032]all of those proposals are either inaccurate or assuming the heavy is terrible at aiming.[/QUOTE]
Do you actually play tf2? You are assuming every heavy is a pro, even so, what I said is still viable strategy. Also. Soldier has black box to gain some health back and now so does pyro.
assuming a player is skilled is a given when discussing balance.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34451096]assuming a player is skilled is a given when discussing balance.[/QUOTE]
Which enforces my tactics and point further.
How so? Really, go for it. Explain how assuming equal skill on the part of both the heavy and the attacker in a headon conflict works in favor of the attacker. Also try discussing all of the classes rather than picking out a select few.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34451312]How so? Really, go for it. Explain how assuming equal skill on the part of both the heavy and the attacker in a headon conflict works in favor of the attacker. Also try discussing all of the classes rather than picking out a select few.[/QUOTE]
I would just be repeating my point. I am a good Heavy amongst other classes and am often beaten by close range pyros, soldiers, demos etc with or without a medic buff. In arena mode, if you are the last left against a heavy, you have a good chance of winning depending on your tactics. No you won't win every time, but when do you beat any class every time? Besides, how would this sandvich nerf help in a 1vs1 situation. To answer the latter question, you have to be pretty stupid to face a heavy as an engineer, medic, spy(disguise blown) or a sniper. With those you use your class strengths not weaknesses.
I really don't see a sound argument on your part. Assuming the heavy can aim, the scout will be tracked and destroyed before he can get off 3 meatshots, the soldier a) can't kill the heavy in two rockets + a shotgun blast and b) can't do so faster than the heavy can turn him into Swiss cheese, and the pyro can't puff n sting the heavy as quickly as the heavy can mow him down unless he catches him unrevved (if we're assuming the heavy is any good [ie is aware of his surroundings and has good reaction time], this likely isn't the case). Demos are in pretty good shape to take on a heavy unless he's revved
ps I'm pretty sure heavies can't be juggled by rockets/pipes unless he jumps. sticky traps can send him flying though.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34451523]I really don't see a sound argument on your part. Assuming the heavy can aim, the scout will be tracked and destroyed before he can get off 3 meatshots, the soldier a) can't kill the heavy in two rockets + a shotgun blast and b) can't do so faster than the heavy can turn him into Swiss cheese, and the pyro can't puff n sting the heavy as quickly as the heavy can mow him down unless he catches him unrevved (if we're assuming the heavy is any good [ie is aware of his surroundings and has good reaction time], this likely isn't the case). Demos are in pretty good shape to take on a heavy unless he's revved
ps I'm pretty sure heavies can't be juggled by rockets/pipes unless he jumps. sticky traps can send him flying though.[/QUOTE]
So you are saying heavies are unbeatable 1vs1? Because that is quite a strong statement if so. I'm sure I am not the only person who will agree. You will be surprised how quickly Pyro can do 300 damage. They have buffed other classes to deal with a heavy in my opinion, like the quick changes of Pyro and Soldier to utilise critical hits more effectively. And If it is a 1vs1 situation, when does heavy even have a chance to throw a sandvich to himself unless he is on the run?
[QUOTE=1 Duck;34451654]So you are saying heavies are unbeatable 1vs1?[/QUOTE]
Not unbeatable but odds tend to be stacked in the heavy's favor if he's any good. Thanks to all of his buffs (and the tomislav) heavies handle 1v1 exceptionally if they're any good. It's when the heavy wanders into a crowd that things get a little hairy.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34451761]Not unbeatable but odds tend to be stacked in the heavy's favor if he's any good. Thanks to all of his buffs (and the tomislav) heavies handle 1v1 exceptionally if they're any good. It's when the heavy wanders into a crowd that things get a little hairy.[/QUOTE]
This suggests balance to me. I never got on with the Tomislav, for me it's has to be vanilla minigun all the time. Providing you know how to jump and spin it Tomislav is a downgrade, that may just be my play style. I can kind of see Tomislav being used more for defence as Heavy should be but he has developed more into an offensive class which is why they gave him the sandvich to begin with, losing his dependancy from the medic.
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