[QUOTE=1 Duck;34451840]This suggests balance to me.[/QUOTE]
A class that requires team fire to be taken down in virtually any situation suggests balance to you?
Even if you get the jump on the heavy, if he has the tomislav, you can still expect to get shat on. If he's already revved and competent, forget about it.
You want to nerf tomislav and sandvich? Fine.
You want to nerf enforcer? Fine.
You want to buff Pyro? Also fine.
But fuck you for nerfing the equalizer. That is one of the most drastic changes by far.
sidenote: Natascha needs a buff, same with chocolate.
wait wait wait
pd, are you seriously suggesting that a heavy is unbeatable 1v1 against a sniper at long or medium range; a pyro with the use of air blast, flaregun and/or axtinguisher; a soldier with all four rockets OR a direct hit; a demoman with... ANYTHING EXPLOSIVE; a spy with any cloak; OR an engineer with a level 3 sentry gun?
you're fucking joking right
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34451909]
Even if you get the jump on the heavy, if he has the tomislav, you can still expect to get shat on. If he's already revved and competent, forget about it.[/QUOTE]
I can't remember ever being beaten by a Tomislav heavy when I was using the Minigun, not 1vs1.
[QUOTE=Executive;34451925]
You want to nerf enforcer? Fine.
But fuck you for nerfing the enforcer. That is one of the most drastic changes by far.
[/QUOTE]
wait what, on 2 levels
i mean, the enforcer is a straight upgrade with the dead ringer
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34451761]Not unbeatable but odds tend to be stacked in the heavy's favor if he's any good. Thanks to all of his buffs (and the tomislav) heavies handle 1v1 exceptionally if they're any good. It's when the heavy wanders into a crowd that things get a little hairy.[/QUOTE]
The odds are stacked towards any player if they are better than the other. It doesn't matter what class they are playing.
I've just now come to realize that all this talk about the Tomislav - it's not just the Heavy, but the three so called "defensive" classes have all changed... I don't think I've seen a good defensive Demo Knight before. Tomislav "assassin" Heavies sneaking around. And my biggest concern; Gunslinger Engineers throwing up Mini Sentry after Mini Sentry out on the battlefield.
I know that Valve was doing this to alter the style of playing, but it's just not working on defense! If they insist on doing this, they should at least make it clear to new players that the defensive classes aren't just for defense.
If I'm wrong, and I've missed some major thing Valve ever said, please tell me before showering me with boxes.
[QUOTE=Executive;34451925]You want to nerf tomislav and sandvich? Fine.
[B]You want to nerf enforcer? Fine.[/B]
You want to buff Pyro? Also fine.
[B]But fuck you for nerfing the enforcer. That is one of the most drastic changes by far.[/B][/QUOTE]
my mind!
[QUOTE=TheJoey;34451946]wait wait wait
pd, are you seriously suggesting that a heavy is unbeatable 1v1 against a sniper at long or medium range; a pyro with the use of air blast, flaregun and/or axtinguisher; a soldier with all four rockets OR a direct hit; a demoman with... ANYTHING EXPLOSIVE; a spy with any cloak; OR an engineer with a level 3 sentry gun?
you're fucking joking right[/QUOTE]
argument is so flawed, I have no idea where to begin.
[QUOTE=Jacen;34451974]The odds are stacked towards any player if they are better than the other. It doesn't matter what class they are playing.[/QUOTE]
Didn't read the last dozen posts or so. We've established equal skill on the part of both players. Heavy still has the upper hand unless he's unrevved or being flanked (both of which are negated if he's using the tomislav)
[QUOTE=1 Duck;34451949]I can't remember ever being beaten by a Tomislav heavy when I was using the Minigun, not 1vs1.[/QUOTE]
Minigun heavies are one of the few shining examples of a player that can shut down a tomislav heavy. Tomislav shuts down flanking by most classes, minigun heavy being one of the exceptions.
[QUOTE=Stoffy;34452015] I don't think I've seen a good defensive Demo Knight before.[/QUOTE]
oh man
i play defensive demoknight all the time and wrack up stacks of 50 heads before dying. see "get out of your base fkin noob" x12
[QUOTE=Stoffy;34452015]the three so called "defensive" classes have all changed... I don't think I've seen a good defensive Demo Knight before.[/QUOTE]
demoman w/ a stock loadout is offensive to begin with, it's not like demoknights were the first sign of an offensive demo.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34452032]
argument is so flawed, I have no idea where to begin.[/QUOTE]
oh ok because i just listed all the ways for the heavy to get one or two-shotted before dying
unless you're somehow talking about if the two classes spawned 5 feet from eachother in a 10x10 foot room or some shit
because i wreck heavies all day every day 1 v 1 with every class except medic.
They gave Demo the scottish resistance to help him on defence, but I don't think any other defensive classes got anything to help them defend apart from some recent engineer weapons against spies/medics.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34452032]Heavy still has the upper hand unless he's unrevved or being flanked[/QUOTE]
That's how it should be. Deal out tons of damage head on but pretty weak to anything that can flank him and get up close.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;34452054]oh ok because i just listed all the ways for the heavy to get one or two-shotted before dying[/QUOTE]
more accurately you ignored the given circumstances. we're talking combat classes vs heavy because utilities and support classes (sniper, spy, engie, medic) should be approaching the heavy in their own way and will obviously die to him head on. we're assuming equal skill on the part of both players. heavy is unrevved but sees the attacker coming.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;34452054]i wreck heavies all day every day 1 v 1 with every class except medic.[/QUOTE]
have you considered that they were terrible? maybe?
[editline]29th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jacen;34452105]That's how it should be. Deal out tons of damage head on but pretty weak to anything that can flank him and get up close.[/QUOTE]
But even that's been fucked with (see: decreased rev time on minigun and borderline nonexistant rev time on the tomislav).
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34452110]more accurately you ignored the given circumstances. we're talking combat classes vs heavy because utilities and support classes (sniper, spy, engie, medic) should be approaching the heavy in their own way and will obviously die to him head on. we're assuming equal skill on the part of both players. heavy is unrevved but sees the attacker coming.[/QUOTE]
Well if the heavy is unrevved then that just increases the chances of other classes killing him. Such as pyro flame/axtinguisher switch, soldier rockets and shotgun etc.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34452110]more accurately you ignored the given circumstances. we're talking combat classes vs heavy because utilities and support classes (sniper, spy, engie, medic) should be approaching the heavy in their own way and will obviously die to him head on. we're assuming equal skill on the part of both players. heavy is unrevved but sees the attacker coming.[/QUOTE]
why would any of these classes attack a heavy head-on.
everyone that knows how to play a class would approach each class in the best way possible, not just run at them screaming.
so again, you're saying a sniper could not take on a heavy in a 1v1, despite the fact that a head shot kills a heavy that is not overhealed in one shot.
or that a pyro could not ambush the heavy on a map that isn't a flat plain and either kill him with fire and a flare gun crit or two, or a hit with the axtinguisher, or push him off into environmental damage
or that demoman can't lay down stickies and bounce heavy around and blow him up
or that a soldier can't blow him up.
or a spy can't backstab him
[QUOTE=1 Duck;34452153]Well if the heavy is unrevved then that just increases the chances of other classes killing him. Such as pyro flame/axtinguisher switch, soldier rockets and shotgun etc.[/QUOTE]
Ignoring the very existence of the tomislav, the minigun still revs quickly enough that the heavy stands a chance. It's also somewhat unrealistic to assume the heavy isn't revved in an area where they may be combat despite the given that he's skilled but we'll ignore that.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34452201]Ignoring the very existence of the tomislav, the minigun still revs quickly enough that the heavy stands a chance. It's also somewhat unrealistic to assume the heavy isn't revved in an area where they may be combat despite the given that he's skilled but we'll ignore that.[/QUOTE]
He has a chance but not a big one. Well you did say we are assuming he is not revved despite the unlikely-ness of this.
i never found tomislav since its last real in-game nerf (not beta) to be op anyway and i don't understand the fucking point of this discussion. like i said earlier, i wreck heavies constantly when i use the environment to my advantage, and consider how slow the heavy is and that he is hit-scan. i get out of the battle with scrapes and bruises sometimes if i'm caught by surprise.
a heavy has its weaknesses and just because you can't exploit those weaknesses as a player and get killed by heavies all the time basically just means you're doing it wrong. if you think the game should cater to how much you suck at tf2 then perhaps you should just stop playing all together. this is the only advice i can give you
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34452050]demoman w/ a stock loadout is offensive to begin with, it's not like demoknights were the first sign of an offensive demo.[/QUOTE]
I know, but all these other items tells players that the first defensive class is more about offense than defense. It just seems off in my head.
And of course this all goes back to the tomislav completely breaking ALL of this theorycrafting because a tomislav heavy shits on nearly any flanker with ease, hence why valve's giving this nerf a spin
[editline]29th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheJoey;34452299]i never found tomislav since its last real in-game nerf (not beta) to be op anyway and i don't understand the fucking point of this discussion. like i said earlier, i wreck heavies constantly when i use the environment to my advantage, and consider how slow the heavy is and that he is hit-scan. i get out of the battle with scrapes and bruises sometimes if i'm caught by surprise.
a heavy has its weaknesses and just because you can't exploit those weaknesses as a player and get killed by heavies all the time basically just means you're doing it wrong. if you think the game should cater to how much you suck at tf2 then perhaps you should just stop playing all together. this is the only advice i can give you[/QUOTE]
Oh my god you're so terrible at this. All of your arguments boil down to "i'm good, you're bad, GET BETTER"
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34452313] because a tomislav heavy shits on nearly any flanker with ease[/QUOTE]
but thats fucking wrong.
[editline]29th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34452313]
Oh my god you're so terrible at this. All of your arguments boil down to "i'm good, you're bad, GET BETTER"[/QUOTE]
uhhhh no it's more like "you're probably not thinking outside of your tiny simple box, so do that first"
[QUOTE=TheJoey;34452342]but thats fucking wrong.[/QUOTE]
Amazing argument, thorough and fluid. Mind status: [x] blown [ ] not blown. Well done
[QUOTE=Executive;34451925]You want to nerf tomislav and sandvich? Fine.
You want to nerf enforcer? Fine.
You want to buff Pyro? Also fine.
But fuck you for nerfing the [b]equalizer[/b]. That is one of the most drastic changes by far.
sidenote: Natascha needs a buff, same with chocolate.[/QUOTE]
Fixed my mistake -___-
[QUOTE=1 Duck;34452056]They gave Demo the scottish resistance to help him on defence, but I don't think any other defensive classes got anything to help them defend apart from some recent engineer weapons against spies/medics.[/QUOTE]
Short Circuit
Brass Beast
Natascha(arguable)
Wrangler
Pomson
Southern Hospitality
Scottish Resistance
Some of which you mentioned
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34452448]Amazing argument, thorough and fluid. Mind stats: [x] blown [ ] not blown. Well done[/QUOTE]
but my point is that not enough people actually think things through if they know they're up against a heavy with the tomislav, so they just do the same old shit they always do and end up getting rocked and then they bitch to valve. tomislav heavy is a different type of heavy gameplay. it changes the class. if you can't change your OWN way of playing YOUR class to counter that, and you can't expect it and prepare for it, then you will get killed. a lot. and not just by tomislav heavy i assure you that.
Who the fuck cares it's just a game.
[QUOTE=Skunky;34452559]Who the fuck cares it's just a game.[/QUOTE]
this hat simulator is my [b]life[/b] now stop trolling me with these lies. god
[QUOTE=Skunky;34452559]Who the fuck cares it's just a game.[/QUOTE]
People who want to enjoy their games.
A properly balanced game is a lot more fun than a non-balanced one.
[QUOTE=pdecezon;34452448]Amazing argument, thorough and fluid. Mind status: [x] blown [ ] not blown. Well done[/QUOTE]
all I've seen you do for the last page is treat other people's arguments as some sort of personal attack that you have to invalidate with snarky comments
why the hostility
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