[QUOTE=Totenkreuz;34421834]
-Doubles flame damage
[/QUOTE]
Then nobody would use Enforcer.
[QUOTE=Totenkreuz;34421834]
-3 bullets instead of 6
[/QUOTE]
Then it would be the Spy's Winger.
[QUOTE=Totenkreuz;34421834]
-doubles cloak consumption
[/QUOTE]
Just sounds bad for Spy in general.
[QUOTE=Lolkork;34427649][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/64/Item_icon_Brass_Beast.png/100px-Item_icon_Brass_Beast.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/cd/Item_icon_Family_Business.png/100px-Item_icon_Family_Business.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I disagree with those 2. The Brass beast may need a buff, but it's not useless. You just need to know what you're doing as a Heavy.
You missed the part where it doesn't shit on your hp by 25.
[QUOTE=Scarabix;34428501]You missed the part where it doesn't shit on your hp by 25.[/QUOTE]
What?
[QUOTE=Lolkork;34427649][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/4e/Item_icon_Winger.png/100px-Item_icon_Winger.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/0/06/Item_icon_Sun-on-a-Stick.png/100px-Item_icon_Sun-on-a-Stick.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/6b/Item_icon_Wrap_Assassin.png/100px-Item_icon_Wrap_Assassin.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/a/ac/Item_icon_Sharpened_Volcano_Fragment.png/100px-Item_icon_Sharpened_Volcano_Fragment.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/64/Item_icon_Brass_Beast.png/100px-Item_icon_Brass_Beast.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/3/35/Item_icon_Dalokohs_Bar.png/100px-Item_icon_Dalokohs_Bar.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/cd/Item_icon_Family_Business.png/100px-Item_icon_Family_Business.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/62/Item_icon_Eviction_Notice.png/100px-Item_icon_Eviction_Notice.png[/IMG]
Will Tomislav join this group of ridiculously underpowered or useless weapons?[/QUOTE]
But I like Wrap Assassin... Doesn't take away your health like Sandman does and it's fun, can really ruin a Spy's day as well.
[QUOTE=B-Rabbit;34422844]Just don't do anything to Equalizer. It's perfectly balanced as it. The lower hp the more damage & speed is also good, since you can be killed with 1 rocket.[/QUOTE]
No, it's a straight upgrade from the regular shovel, and it rewards bad positioning by letting soldiers get away where they would otherwise get killed if they hadn't used the equaliser.
[QUOTE=DatWut?;34428507]What?[/QUOTE]
I was talking about lollork. I meant to quote him when he said sandman was better than the wrap assassin.
I thought about a better nerf for the Tomislav:
Disable the secondary fire. Aka. no spin up.
[editline]28th January 2012[/editline]
Of course, it then should get a faster spin up.
[QUOTE=DatWut?;34428878]I thought about a better nerf for the Tomislav:
Disable the secondary fire. Aka. no spin up.
[editline]28th January 2012[/editline]
Of course, it then should get a faster spin up.[/QUOTE]
I thought of something else:
-75% ammo recieved
therefore big ammo packs grant you 50 ammo, fallen weapons 25 ammo, small kits 10 ammo. This way you actually have to worry about your ammo, which completely shits over your area denial abilities, which a tomislav heavy shouldn't be doing anyway.
This way you actually have to think ahead and bring other [B]actual weapons[/B], therefore encouraging the use of a shotgun and a viable melee.
[QUOTE=DatWut?;34428878]I thought about a better nerf for the Tomislav:
Disable the secondary fire. Aka. no spin up.
[editline]28th January 2012[/editline]
Of course, it then should get a faster spin up.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, that's almost how you played when Tomislav was put in the game for the first time. It was so quick you didn't have to keep spinning the gun and just attack when enemy appeared. It's a complicated gun to balance but if they just leave it at Silent Killer and slower fire rate there's no reason to use it over the normal minigun.
>no tomislav speed buff
FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
I swear to god I want Valve to add some way to remove and reuse name tags. It seems like everything I name gets nerfed. :(
>heavies cant use dropped sandviches
I'm actually entirely okay with this. It kind of ruined the point of being able to stop and eat the sandvich, plus now it encourages teamplay.
>enforcer disables visible enemy health
Annoying but acceptable considering how powerful the damn thing is. Still totally using it though.
...
They should have removed the Spinup penalty of Natascha, given the Tomislav a damage penalty instead of removing the faster spinup, AND given the Brass Beast a damage buff. And we'd then have 4 usable miniguns instead of one and a half.
Sandvich nerf? Glorious, it was extremely exploitable, recovering 150 HP in half a second. Oh well, I usually throw my sandvich at teammates, good to see I can pick it up again if they miss it.
Enforcer nerf is good, the thing, even with a decloak penalty, is quite strong. The vanilla revolver is also a solid weapon, maybe now it'll see some use (it also 3-shots medics, like the enforcer, and light classes are left with 5 HP after 2 shots).
Wait
If Tomislaz has no spin up buff
What perks are there left except for noiseless spinup?
[QUOTE=Nitro836;34429134]Wait
If Tomislaz has no spin up buff
What perks are there left except for noiseless spinup?[/QUOTE]
That's it. That's the only positive to it left.
It doesnt.
With the spin up buff gone, it only has the silent running. giving it a spin[I]down[/I] buff instead, as i think has been mentioned, would be a pretty good compromise, it stops it breaking one of the heavy's key weaknesses, while still buffing him quite heavily, allowing him to break off engagements/change his weapon more easily.
Still, i'd wait and see how the beta goes, this probably won't be the final revision.
[QUOTE=Lolkork;34429161]Quiet spin-up is the best part of Tomislav.[/QUOTE]
not really
It's just not noticeable enough and Heavy is so bad at stealth that it's a useless upside. And it doesn't always works properly...
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;34429456]not really
It's just not noticeable enough and Heavy is so bad at stealth that it's a useless upside. And it doesn't always works properly...[/QUOTE]
And how 'bout Heavy screaming ''NEW WEAPON!!!!!!1111'', every time you spin down the Tomislav?
that was fixed ages ago
Can we at least come to agreement that Tomislav's balance just plain makes more sense like this
Minor downside for minor upside, not minor downside for [b]massive[/b] upside [i]with[/i] minor upside as a bonus
they could have gone with a major stat increase with a major stat decrease and then just ignored the silent spin up, because it's not really terribly useful and is inherited from the design of the weapon.
The Tomislav is FAR from silent. It does that loud as heck spin-up sound. You would have to be a blind-bat human hybrid to not notice it.
Stupid idea incoming, but seeing as the Tomislav ha no spinning barrel, it would be lighter aswell. What would it be like if the Tomislav increased Heavy's speed while revved up or remove it, at punishing downsides like 50% less ammo carried, one bullet per shot, but a minor upside to compenstate for that like 30% more accuracy? Be free to modify.
making Heavy move faster while being able to be revved up sounds like it could make Heavy pretty overpowered.
[QUOTE=Lolkork;34429090]And the Family buisness is rather useless because the shotgun should only be used while encountering a single weaker enemy, so you rarely run out of ammo while using the normal shotgun unless you miss a lot.[/QUOTE]
Try to get crits from KGB and use Family Business. Result: Critfest
I think the Family Business suffers because Heavy never really needed his shotgun anyway. The Family Business on a class that uses their shotgun often would have probably benefited from the stats.
On Engineer those stats would have been pretty balanced and I would have enjoyed using it. My hope is Valve makes a reskin of the Family Business but makes it an Engy weapon, because the model for it doesn't work on anybody but Heavy, but the weapon's stats would work fine on Engy (and maybe Pyro)
Considering I get this really weird sound glitch where if a Heavy fires the Tomislav sometimes it loops indefinitely from where he is, so I can hear him a mile away.
So the Tomislav is screwed to me.
The Sandvich nerf, while i do use the weapon, is kind of a blessing in disguise.
Now i won't be able to heal with the sandvich i drop, BUT, if i miss and my Medic on fire doesn't realise my sandvich is on the floor, i can pick it back up and try and throw it again.
And a reason to use the glorious left-click taunt again? Hooray!
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;34421763]This is actually a very good thing. The Sandvich being a free medium healthkit was really powerful and people have since used it as a crutch.
Just how many Heavies did you ever see rolling a different secondary (other than Buffalo Steak Sandvich) and was playing to actually win?[/QUOTE]
I've had my sandvich for years now. Never really unequipped it.
I've thrown it at my face and sometimes medic's face SO MANY TIMES. And pretty sure you can use it to quick heal still, which is the main function of it. Becomes great in good hands, unlike noobs who spend 10 seconds throwing and eating it.
[editline]28th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=HyperTails;34429997]Considering I get this really weird sound glitch where if a Heavy fires the Tomislav sometimes it loops indefinitely from where he is, so I can hear him a mile away.
So the Tomislav is screwed to me.[/QUOTE]
Yes it's a bug, just wind it up and down again and it's silent.
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;34429896]I think the Family Business suffers because Heavy never really needed his shotgun anyway.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. One of Heavy's biggest problems is the time it requires to rev his gun, and how slow he is when revved. Most Heavies believe that the shotgun is useless on Heavy because he already has a weapon that shreds in close - mid range. However, the time it takes to rev and the slowdown effect while revving gives a chance for your prey to run away and take cover. With the shotgun, you can effectively pursue opponents you wouldn't catch otherwise, such as Scouts. It also gives you a way to effectively shoot Snipers without leaving yourself vulnerable to being headshot. Also there is always the advantage of being able to shoot while backpedaling, something that can't be done with the Minigun. You'd be surprised how many Pyros you can kill with 3 short pumps of the shotgun. If you used the Minigun, he'd probably have enough time to get within melee range while you rev, and you could possible be Axetinguished by then. Not only that, walking around with your shotgun out and shooting that instead of the Minigun in small scuffles doesn't alert the enemy team to there being a Heavy in the area. It's also good for picking of classes at low health, and both shotguns pair really well with the KGB.
Shotgun is stupid for heavy when you have minigun and sandvich. Melee doesn't matter, therefor fists because they are better/just as good as any other ridiculous heavy melee item.
I'm a bit saddened about the nerfs, but they are indeed needed. I've been spoiled for too long by how amazing the Enforcer unfairly was.
But as long as I'm still able to go right up to a moron Razorback Sniper and two-shot him before he's even able to unscope, I'm perfectly happy.
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