I think more map specific Head Full of Steam type hats would be cool
[QUOTE=Jacen;34449765]Void talked about it to the modellers in the emporium chat a bit ago. I would have done one but I can't come up with a concept for such a thing. Let alone one that people will really want and be willing to rank up. The world traveler hat is just really ugly.
Mappers really deserve more.[/QUOTE]
If there's interest in such a thing, I could come up with ideas and draw concepts. Shall I?
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;34449820]I think more map specific Head Full of Steam type hats would be cool[/QUOTE]
It would be cool, but it would require modeling work without resulting in mapmakers getting money. That's, like, counterproductive to these purposes.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;34449820]I think more map specific Head Full of Steam type hats would be cool[/QUOTE]
Mercenary badge for 2fort.
[QUOTE=Deodorant;34450403]If there's interest in such a thing, I could come up with ideas and draw concepts. Shall I?[/QUOTE]
Do it. I'll be finishing the sniper rifle I'm working on soon and could use another project.
I used to map a bit, but I was always bad at doing things in the right way and in the right order. And I pretty much never finished any of the maps I started due to lack of motivation, except one I made specifically for someone that turned out terrible.
[QUOTE=Jacen;34450992]Do it. I'll be finishing the sniper rifle I'm working on soon and could use another project.[/QUOTE]
Ok, sweet. I'll start by throwing out a bunch of exploration-related ideas in the form of photo links. I can then draw proper concept art of anything people want to model (unless of course they prefer to base it on photos). Sounds good?
[URL="http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PHI1982.jpg"]Conquistador helmet[/URL]
[URL="http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqIsNqlzFJMC0YjJfgpoaTHLf9FQimPmdf3NU7X3BcWFguM6VkdlUthraz"]Car goggles[/URL]
[URL="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_J9yovmoZWDQ/SrFhr9Yb-ZI/AAAAAAAAAPc/xcoGom6Ppfc/s400/pilot1+crp.jpg"]Pilot Cap[/URL] (actually looks slightly different than both the Team Captain and Wiki Cap)
[URL="http://www.militaryheadgear.com/system/photos/000/027/644/large/Communist_Romanian_Navy_Enlisted_Sailor_s_Cap_1960s022111_8796.jpg?1298490145"]Sailor cap[/URL]
[URL="http://hisvorpal.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/fess-parker-and-rifle-betsy.jpg"]Coonskin cap[/URL]
Of course, if we want to make the hats as popular as possible, they should probably be pretty simple, general and successfully integrate-able in themed outfits. Here are a few ideas of such hats, with name ideas to shoehorn them into an appropriate theme. All of them already exist for one or two classes, but they can get different enough designs to justify them as separate all-class hats, I think.
[URL="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6032/5914004767_13c0e83181_z.jpg"]Simple, uncluttered top hat[/URL] - Colonial Crown
[URL="http://www.armynavydeals.com/asp/images/product_images/WW2M1st.jpg"]Military non-brodie helmet[/URL] - On Foreign Shores
[URL="http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/AntisocialJ/TheBlackFedora.jpg"]Black fedora[/URL] - External Affairs
[URL="http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_03/dylan2102_468x688.jpg"]Dignified sunglasses[/URL] - Vogue Vacationer
[QUOTE=Recurracy;34445305]I find it ridiculous how modeling gives you more cash than mapping does. Modeling takes significant more time than mapping and in my opinion it's thrice as hard. I can't make maps for shit.[/QUOTE]
It's really difficult to have a way for players to pay for maps without restricting content. That's why mappers get a one-time payment up-front plus map stamps (which probably sell poorly).
It sucks, but judging by how much the modelers have been making since the Mannconomy update, I think mappers might get a bit more in the future.
I've got this beast (read: performance killer) I made for movies:
[img]http://source.maxofs2d.net/maps/tf_onett/screenshots/south_houses.png[/img]
Here's an [B]old[/B] overview of it — is there any experienced mapper who knows if it'd be possible to adapt it into a Payload map? (that's a suggestion I keep getting, but I know ingame maps are optimized out of the ass sooo that's not really my field)
[img]http://source.maxofs2d.net/maps/tf_onett/screenshots/beta27.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Deodorant;34463010]Ok, sweet. I'll start by throwing out a bunch of exploration-related ideas in the form of photo links. I can then draw proper concept art of anything people want to model (unless of course they prefer to base it on photos). Sounds good?
[URL="http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PHI1982.jpg"]Conquistador helmet[/URL]
[URL="http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqIsNqlzFJMC0YjJfgpoaTHLf9FQimPmdf3NU7X3BcWFguM6VkdlUthraz"]Car goggles[/URL]
[URL="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_J9yovmoZWDQ/SrFhr9Yb-ZI/AAAAAAAAAPc/xcoGom6Ppfc/s400/pilot1+crp.jpg"]Pilot Cap[/URL] (actually looks slightly different than both the Team Captain and Wiki Cap)
[URL="http://www.militaryheadgear.com/system/photos/000/027/644/large/Communist_Romanian_Navy_Enlisted_Sailor_s_Cap_1960s022111_8796.jpg?1298490145"]Sailor cap[/URL]
[URL="http://hisvorpal.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/fess-parker-and-rifle-betsy.jpg"]Coonskin cap[/URL]
Of course, if we want to make the hats as popular as possible, they should probably be pretty simple, general and successfully integrate-able in themed outfits. Here are a few ideas of such hats, with name ideas to shoehorn them into an appropriate theme. All of them already exist for one or two classes, but they can get different enough designs to justify them as separate all-class hats, I think.
[URL="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6032/5914004767_13c0e83181_z.jpg"]Simple, uncluttered top hat[/URL] - Colonial Crown
[URL="http://www.armynavydeals.com/asp/images/product_images/WW2M1st.jpg"]Military non-brodie helmet[/URL] - On Foreign Shores
[URL="http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/AntisocialJ/TheBlackFedora.jpg"]Black fedora[/URL] - External Affairs
[URL="http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_03/dylan2102_468x688.jpg"]Dignified sunglasses[/URL] - Vogue Vacationer[/QUOTE]
I'll see what I can do.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;34470365]I've got this beast (read: performance killer) I made for movies:
[img]http://source.maxofs2d.net/maps/tf_onett/screenshots/south_houses.png[/img]
Here's an [B]old[/B] overview of it — is there any experienced mapper who knows if it'd be possible to adapt it into a Payload map? (that's a suggestion I keep getting, but I know ingame maps are optimized out of the ass sooo that's not really my field)
[img]http://source.maxofs2d.net/maps/tf_onett/screenshots/beta27.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
That looks very nice.
It'd be cool if the final point where the payload blew up was the meteor crash site.
Hows this for a better world traveler's hat? WWI pilot getup.
[img]http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk144/jacen91/better_world_traveler.jpg[/img]
Great Roof Survey, part 1! The edges of all slanted roofs I've seen in official maps are sheared so they're completely vertical. This may be because it's the simple thing to do (make the roof too long, rotate it and apply it to the wall, see what lengt would be appropriate once it's in place, and cut). If you have a good eye for distances, though, it's the more difficult thing to do, as it requires one extra action per piece of roof. This would mean Valve considers that method prettier.
Personally, I think edges that are angled 90 degrees to the surface of the roof rather than the ground are the prettiest, but I wouldn't want t make it like that on my map if everyone thinks I'm just being lazy. Therefore I'm asking you: What's the prettiest type of roof edge?
[IMG]http://i.imm.io/fJY0.png[/IMG]
Nobody's going to think you're lazy for that, do what you want.
Ok, sweet. Now for part two. All snowy roofs on official maps use special snow props designed after the maps layouts. I'm pretty sure that requires some special programs and knowledge of modeling software to do. What should I do instead?
[IMG]http://i.imm.io/fKhg.png[/IMG]
Oh, and in case you're interested, here's a pic to give you an approximate idea of my map layout. This just shows half the map, but the other half is the same thing with some cosmetic changes and a 90 degree rotation. Please don't mind the hovering roofs, the floating rock and the perfectly innocent bloodstains. Click to enlarge, naturally.
[URL="http://i.imm.io/fKlt.png"][IMG]http://i.imm.io/fKmS.png[/IMG][/URL]
[QUOTE=Deodorant;34514672]Ok, sweet. Now for part two. All snowy roofs on official maps use special snow props designed after the maps layouts. I'm pretty sure that requires some special programs and knowledge of modeling software to do. What should I do instead?
[IMG]http://i.imm.io/fKhg.png[/IMG]
Oh, and in case you're interested, here's a pic to give you an approximate idea of my map layout. This just shows half the map, but the other half is the same thing with some cosmetic changes and a 90 degree rotation. Please don't mind the hovering roofs, the floating rock and the perfectly innocent bloodstains. Click to enlarge, naturally.
[URL="http://i.imm.io/fKlt.png"][IMG]http://i.imm.io/fKmS.png[/IMG][/URL][/QUOTE]
Wow, nice use of the sharp dresser animations.
Also, which gamemode is this?
[QUOTE=Erfly;34516240]Wow, nice use of the sharp dresser animations.
Also, which gamemode is this?[/QUOTE]
Thanks! It's koth, I wanted to make my first map as simple as possible.
Also, everyone, sorry that I'm being so needy. Still, it's my first map. When I get better, I'll probably be able to work more independently.
[QUOTE=Deodorant;34513005]Great Roof Survey, part 1! The edges of all slanted roofs I've seen in official maps are sheared so they're completely vertical. This may be because it's the simple thing to do (make the roof too long, rotate it and apply it to the wall, see what lengt would be appropriate once it's in place, and cut). If you have a good eye for distances, though, it's the more difficult thing to do, as it requires one extra action per piece of roof. This would mean Valve considers that method prettier.
Personally, I think edges that are angled 90 degrees to the surface of the roof rather than the ground are the prettiest, but I wouldn't want t make it like that on my map if everyone thinks I'm just being lazy. Therefore I'm asking you: What's the prettiest type of roof edge?
[IMG]http://i.imm.io/fJY0.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
The distinction is important from an optimization standpoint, as well. Unless the part of your roof that's hanging out is a func_detail, it will carve up the BSP geometry. In that case, I would go for the vertical overhangs.
[QUOTE=Deodorant;34516310]Also, everyone, sorry that I'm being so needy. Still, it's my first map. When I get better, I'll probably be able to work more independently.[/QUOTE]
Actually this is good, it gives you input for the progression of your map and shows it off as you make it, which drives interest in it up. Personally, I've always found it really hard to finish a map without other people interested in it, so this will help there if you do too.
[QUOTE=Mechtroid;34535879]The distinction is important from an optimization standpoint, as well. Unless the part of your roof that's hanging out is a func_detail, it will carve up the BSP geometry. In that case, I would go for the vertical overhangs.[/QUOTE]
Ah. Well, all my roofs are func_details. Even with a straight edge, the slanted angle of a roof itself is pretty terrible for the visleaves, right?
Anyway, I'm going with displacements on shingles for now. With all the frustrating obstacles I'm encountering with this map anyway, I really don't think downloading and learning a whole new program just for the sake of the roofs would be a good idea. I did, however, replace some of the more jagged-looking displacements with several smaller ones to make them smoother.
Also, a question. I have a water brush, built as they should be. Nodraw on five sides, water on the top, no horizontal slant. One lod_water_control, one cubemap bound to the surface etc. My map doesn't have any leaks.
The water works fine when I'm under the surface, but doesn't exist when I'm above it. It's invisible, I can shoot flaming flares at the bottom and there are no splash animations.
I do, however, not run the map with VIS enabled. Could this be the cause?
I didn't know about selecting solids mode until quite recently, and have therefore avoided to make func_details as they were more difficult to work with. There are a bunch of brushes I haven't gotten around to func_detailing yet, and I guess this is why hammer goes into eternal compile when I try to run with VIS enabled.
deodorant have you done any play testing before the detail? if not it's a waste of time if the routes suck, as you'll have to move things about, change sizes and replace things
[QUOTE=Not_Yet;34540926]deodorant have you done any play testing before the detail? if not it's a waste of time if the routes suck, as you'll have to move things about, change sizes and replace things[/QUOTE]
Good idea. I have to fix a bunch of stuff before the map can be considered playable, though. Adding the entire second half of the map, for example.
Once I'm done with those things, how should I get it playtested? Is there any server dedicated to playtesting and giving feedback on community maps? I suppose I could bug a bunch of friends to play it with me, but I only have like two steam friends that are in the same approximate area as me.
Oh, and one more thing, completely unrelated to my map. Emporiums usually have a few helpful links in the first post, right? I strongly suggest giving this one links to [URL="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=5952&highlight=decompiled"]the list of decompiled official maps[/URL] and [URL="http://www.interlopers.net/index.php?page=errors"]Interlopers' compile log checker[/URL]. A lot of you probably already know of them already, but some of you may not and they're incredibly useful!
[QUOTE=Deodorant;34542035]Good idea. I have to fix a bunch of stuff before the map can be considered playable, though. Adding the entire second half of the map, for example.
Once I'm done with those things, how should I get it playtested? Is there any server dedicated to playtesting and giving feedback on community maps? I suppose I could bug a bunch of friends to play it with me, but I only have like two steam friends that are in the same approximate area as me.
Oh, and one more thing, completely unrelated to my map. Emporiums usually have a few helpful links in the first post, right? I strongly suggest giving this one links to [URL="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=5952&highlight=decompiled"]the list of decompiled official maps[/URL] and [URL="http://www.interlopers.net/index.php?page=errors"]Interlopers' compile log checker[/URL]. A lot of you probably already know of them already, but some of you may not and they're incredibly useful![/QUOTE]
pretty much just block the level out & add the main entities to make it playable, just forget about looks for now
oh, and you could try [url=www.tf2maps.net]tf2maps.net[/url], when i used to map they were pretty helpful and had weekly map plays to test community maps (not sure if they have that any more though, been a while since i mapped)
They still do test day, I always get popups from the group so I know :v:
[QUOTE=Not_Yet;34542307]pretty much just block the level out & add the main entities to make it playable, just forget about looks for now
oh, and you could try [url=www.tf2maps.net]tf2maps.net[/url], when i used to map they were pretty helpful and had weekly map plays to test community maps (not sure if they have that any more though, been a while since i mapped)[/QUOTE]
Well, it's a symmetrical map, so I'll pretty much just have to copy and rotate everything, and change a few team-centric attributes in entities. TF2maps still seem to do the playtesting thing. I found a feedback page that shows team win stats for a bunch of maps. I can't see where I'm supposed to submit a map for playtesting, though.
Would I need to do the kind of detailwork that affects gameplay and performance before having it tested? Putting playerclips over perchpoints, corner beams (sorry 'bout the premature detailing) and stairs, adding hints and areaportals, etcetera?
To submit your map for TF2Map's gameday, follow the directions in [URL="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=18797"]this post[/URL] (if you're submitting it at a later date, just go to the events section of the forum and find the latest gameday topic).
When you're building your map, create the parts that will most affect gameplay first, like player clips, stairs (you can use ramps as a placeholder), and optimization (with things like areaportals). Details such as windows, barrels, and other props, as well as color correction should wait until you're map's layout has been tested.
[QUOTE====;34543313]To submit your map for TF2Map's gameday, follow the directions in [URL="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=18797"]this post[/URL] (if you're submitting it at a later date, just go to the events section of the forum and find the latest gameday topic).
When you're building your map, create the parts that will most affect gameplay first, like player clips, stairs (you can use ramps as a placeholder), and optimization (with things like areaportals). Details such as windows, barrels, and other props, as well as color correction should wait until you're map's layout has been tested.[/QUOTE]
With player clips in that sentence, you're referring to solid architecture brushes in general, right? Playtesting a map consisting of transparent playerclip brushes sounds horrible.
I figured the general process was to build the basic shapes of the map (flat walls, ceilings, floors, stair-ramps and ground, generally textured with dev textures) along with the required entities, and stuff like water. The second step would be to playtest and change until it worked well, then finally to add all the decorative stuff.
I've done basically that. However, I've used game textures instead of dev ones, and I've done a bunch of premature detailwork just to see if I could make sections of the map look good. I also used either props or long rows of (func_detailed) steps instead of ramps for the stairs.
I have to use a bunch of playerclips to make the stairs off-rocket-jump-able, and to prevent people from getting stuck on beams and stuff before the map can be tested.
When I've done that, though, the worst that can happen is that I have to delete a bunch of my decorations, right?
Oh, and one completely unrelated question. What's the deal with cp_orange maps? I only played one once, found it sort of boring, and figured it was a dev texture map in development. Since then, I've heard people talk about them as though they filled some very specific and sort of shameful purpose, but I haven't managed to understand what this purpose is.
Deodorant, you'd get alot quicker feedback on your questions in TF2maps steam chat, by people who actually understand hammer a fair deal. Also I'd suggest you don't detail any 'real' map of yours until you have layout that has been test and iterated on. I'm not saying don't practice your detailing skills but I wouldn't mix the two alot up until your completely happy with how the map plays, put decals and signs for navigation and fences to show off limits areas and etc but the more you work on the detailing multiplies how long it takes to change anything. Trust me, i've seen people do it and get burned out on mapping time and time agian.
-never-mind got them to work sorry-
[QUOTE=theharribokid;34567355]Deodorant, you'd get alot quicker feedback on your questions in TF2maps steam chat, by people who actually understand hammer a fair deal. Also I'd suggest you don't detail any 'real' map of yours until you have layout that has been test and iterated on. I'm not saying don't practice your detailing skills but I wouldn't mix the two alot up until your completely happy with how the map plays, put decals and signs for navigation and fences to show off limits areas and etc but the more you work on the detailing multiplies how long it takes to change anything. Trust me, i've seen people do it and get burned out on mapping time and time agian.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm done with the cosmetic stuff for now. Right now I'm working on making the map functionally playable; Adding basic entities, putting simple dev-textured wedges and blocks where I plan to make bridges and stairs, putting playerclips over the detailwork I've already done.
I've worked on this for pretty much three days straight now, and I think playability is approaching. I still need to copy-rotate it and add a few more playerclips here and there, but I'm getting closer to the playtesting stage.
Why is it a bad idea to practice cosmetic detailing in the map? There's a pretty small chance that I'll get to keep the details as they are, but it's greater than zero. If I make a special map just for detail practice I'm 100% sure to do it in vain. I guess I save some work by not having to delete it, but deleting is the simplest part.
[QUOTE=Deodorant;34543912]Oh, and one completely unrelated question. What's the deal with cp_orange maps? I only played one once, found it sort of boring, and figured it was a dev texture map in development. Since then, I've heard people talk about them as though they filled some very specific and sort of shameful purpose, but I haven't managed to understand what this purpose is.[/QUOTE]
typically idiots think since it's not detailed that means no distractions and better competitive gameplay.
However, these maps all tend to have shit gameplay anyway,
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