I think its balanced, i just hate when people fucking use it because they just W+M1.
I play Pyro more than any other class, and when i see someone using the phlog it just disappoints me.
I'd be okay with the damage reduction if it [b]didn't give all his fucking health back thus making all of the damage you did meaningless.[/b]
I'm sure it gave those people who only W+M1ed with the backburner a huge boner.
When you run into a Pyro with the Phlogistonator, it's like rolling the dice instead of skill intended.
25% chance of you getting crit steamrolled by said Pyro.
25% chance of the Pyro taunting, blocking all of your attacks.
25% chance of being a safe distance away from the Pyro with crits, able to kill him.
25% chance without crits, but still get hurt by the fire.
I don't like the implementation at all, but I can't call it OP. It just feels like the only way to win is to run.
I have no strong feelings one way or the other
IMO it's only the full health restoration that really bugs me. It basically encourages W+M1 instead of hit-and-run that pyros should be doing, with afterburn working up the Mmph bar.
I just don't like weapons that put less reliance on medics/have no teamwork qualities
Pomson 6000 is a real problem.
Not this.
[QUOTE=MRTW113;34888296]IMO it's only the full health restoration that really bugs me. It basically encourages W+M1 instead of hit-and-run that pyros should be doing, with afterburn working up the Mmph bar.
I just don't like weapons that put less reliance on medics/have no teamwork qualities[/QUOTE]
Hit and run is dead. It isn't coming back.
[QUOTE=mooman1080;34888443]Hit and run is dead. It isn't coming back.[/QUOTE]
Yep. They'd have to remove the airblast's fire-removing properties, jarate, and milk for hit and run to be viable again.
Once I figured out how it worked, it became the easiest thing to counter I have ever seen.
[QUOTE=Newbienice99;34889768]Once I figured out how it worked, it became the easiest thing to counter I have ever seen.[/QUOTE]
Quoted for truth.
OOH A PYRO IS TAUNTING IN FRONT OF ME, MAYBE I SHOULD JUST RUN AWAY
It's not as if the flamethrower [I]actually has range[/I]
The worst it can do is shit your fps
[QUOTE=Cajun;34886357]We had this thread a month ago. Why do we need to reiterate the [b][i]same exact shit[/i][/b]?
it sucks it's terrible and annoying[/QUOTE]
I like discussing gameplay instead of hats, which take up like 9/10ths of the front page.
Good: Crits on demand. Heals you.
Bad: You're now going to get blown up 6 ways to sunday.
It's part of my new favorite loadout.
Phlogistinator+Manmelter+Sharpened Volcano Fragment.
you can still extinguish teammates and every bit of damage you do builds Mmmph.
I'd say it's balanced.
I was testing this loadout on Turbine Pro.
I had 2 dominations at one time, I was second highest on the leaderboard.
The first highest was a Soldier with a Direct Hit who was kicking my proverbial teeth in.
I was also totally helpless against sentries.
the only bit of balancing I would do is make it so that the only time it ever gets Crits is from Mmmph, no Kritzkrieg, no victory Crits.
I was in a vent and we captured the flag.
My god, the destuction.
[b]THE DESTRUCTION.[/b]
[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;34894666]the only bit of balancing I would do is make it so that the only time it ever gets Crits is from Mmmph, [b]no Kritzkrieg[/b], no victory Crits.
[/QUOTE]
As a Medic main, I think I speak for almost every player who likes Medic when I say Fuck that and fuck you for thinking it would be a good idea. Nothing is more frustrating than surviving long enough to deploy an Ubercharge only to see it wasted because someone ran out of ammo or decided to reload or hide or something; but to make the Ubercharge completely nullified [i]by my own teammate's weapon[/i] is just crossing the line. The Cowmangler 5000 already set this precedent, that doesn't mean it's a good precedent to abide by.
Crits are never the balancing factor in any weapon, so don't even bother trying to use them in any way to try to "nerf" them. All of the weapons with No Random Critical hits are joke downsides anyway because random crits are a joke, victory crits are a joke as well because the only sensible time that they're active is when the game has already ended (intel capping crits are laughable to consider "balanced"), making it extend to the Kritzkrieg turns it from a joke downside into a "Fuck you, Medic" downside.
just had one more idea to balance it.
Pyro now has a "Mmmph" meter that is visible by EVERYONE.
this could lead to some decoy tactics (Pyro is at 90% Mmmph, charge at enemies while teammates sneak around the back, etc.) to make the skill cieling a bit higher and it could also lead to some counter tactics ("that Pyro has 90% Mmmph, target him first").
this way, there's no suprise Mmmph during a 1-on-1, but on the other hand, there's not much the enemy can do if they happen to notice that it's full.
maybe make it start to show if the Mmmph is over 50%.
[editline]27th February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;34894802]As a Medic main, I think I speak for almost every player who likes Medic when I say Fuck that and fuck you for thinking it would be a good idea. Nothing is more frustrating than surviving long enough to deploy an Ubercharge only to see it wasted because someone ran out of ammo or decided to reload or hide or something; but to make the Ubercharge completely nullified [i]by my own teammate's weapon[/i] is just crossing the line. The Cowmangler 5000 already set this precedent, that doesn't mean it's a good precedent to abide by.
Crits are never the balancing factor in any weapon, so don't even bother trying to use them in any way to try to "nerf" them. All of the weapons with No Random Critical hits are joke downsides anyway because random crits are a joke, victory crits are a joke as well because the only sensible time that they're active is when the game has already ended (intel capping crits are laughable to consider "balanced"), making it extend to the Kritzkrieg turns it from a joke downside into a "Fuck you, Medic" downside.[/QUOTE]
true, true....
but as for the victory crits...
allow me to expand on that Vent story...
>in the vents of Turbine Pro
>Phlog loadout
>turn the corner, half the enemy team
>the second I see them:
>"WE HAVE CAPTURED THE INTELLIGENCE"
>W+M1
>wipe out half the enemy team in .5 seconds
>full Mmmph, any damage I just took can be ignored
>barely anyone left to defend the intel and I have insta-crits ready to pop
no Victory Crits doesn't matter on CP or PL or anything, but on CTF, they actually have an effect on the match.
as for the Kritzkrieg thing...
well, maybe it downgrades those to minicrits?
if a Medic Kritzes a Plog Pyro, you get something like 10 seconds of Crits, then an insta-heal, then 10 MORE seconds of Crits.
it needs a bit of a nerf there, but the problem comes with not knowing exactly what to nerf.
[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;34894812]
true, true....
but as for the victory crits...
allow me to expand on that Vent story...
>in the vents of Turbine Pro
>Phlog loadout
>turn the corner, half the enemy team
>the second I see them:
>"WE HAVE CAPTURED THE INTELLIGENCE"
>W+M1
>wipe out half the enemy team in .5 seconds
>full Mmmph, any damage I just took can be ignored
>barely anyone left to defend the intel and I have insta-crits ready to pop
no Victory Crits doesn't matter on CP or PL or anything, but on CTF, they actually have an effect on the match.[/QUOTE]
Intel Capping crits have never been balanced. They exist only so that pub servers running CTF can get a steamroll started so the game doesn't stagnate to the typical stalemates that CTF is notorious for.
Using a blatantly unbalanced feature in a discussion about balance doesn't hold much weight at all, especially when it can be disabled as easily as toggling a variable. Random crits are the same way.
Its the backburner shit all over again, ignore and let it pass.
I also think that in mmph time, pyro should have %50 damage absorb. Even the damn taunt starts, they just wait for the end.
[QUOTE=Black;34895214]Its the backburner shit all over again, ignore and let it pass.[/QUOTE]
What's funny is that the Phlogistinator is exactly what the Backburner was originally designed to be, but it actually managed to pull it off.
The bonus health and back-crits was to encourage ambushing and rewarded the Pyro with more durability. However, since it was a straight-up health buff, it was used for face-to-face combat instead; the back-crits weren't enough of an incentive to be sneaky when you can simply bumrush.
The Phlogistinator changes this by only granting the rewards after already doing enough fire damage. The lack of airblast awkwardly shoehorns the Pyro into ambushing, and the Mmmph's functionality encourages tactical use to maximize damage output.
The main issue (lack of airblast aside) with the Phlogistinator is activating Mmmph. It forces you to be stationary and loud - that's the reason they gave you some damage resistance, because you make yourself positionally vulnerable, the Heavy has 300 hp to soak up damage and a range advantage if he gets caught eating, the Pyro doesn't.
If they remove the damage resistance, then the Pyro needs something to protect itself while vulnerable if the player gets caught taunting around a corner. I don't know what that would be, but I am identifying where the core issue with the item lies.
I love using the Degreaser but the Phlog does have its particular uses.It can be damn amazing at the area denial at the Gates on PL or denying the oteher team from getting out spawn on 2FORT.
I have made SO many people rage quit from blocking spawn doors on 2fort Engy and 2fort Egypt. Its easily counter able but people don't understand how due to the lack of skill.
I STILL don't get how Phlog is considered OP by most people, but Degreaser and axethinguisher combined is considered balanced (It's not).
[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;34894666]
The first highest was a Soldier with a Direct Hit who was kicking my proverbial teeth in.
[/QUOTE]
Completely unrelated, but would his steam name happen to be "Chou"?
In my opinion, it's a weapon which emits interesting circular particles that light people ablaze. Said fire gathers energy within the weapon, which can then be used for crits.
[QUOTE=Rawbutbull;34898992]I STILL don't get how Phlog is considered OP by most people, but Degreaser and axethinguisher combined is considered balanced (It's not).[/QUOTE]
Because the Phlog can crit multiple people at once and the Axetinguisher requires the player to go after 1 person at a time.
[QUOTE=Rawbutbull;34898992]I STILL don't get how Phlog is considered OP by most people, but Degreaser and axethinguisher combined is considered balanced (It's not).[/QUOTE]
I consider both OP. The Axetinguisher was balanced before the Degreaser was added to the game. It's too efficient and effective now, a lot of Pyro players don't use their primaries because of it.
Whenever I see a Pyro with a Degreaser, I have the feeling that I'm in an enclosed space and the walls are closing in on me fast - and they're covered with fire and barbed wire.
And, no, it was perfectly possible to kill all of the classes except for perhaps the Heavy and Pyro with the flamethrower alone. Strafing and juggling made this possible, there was no need for the Degreaser.
[QUOTE=NiGHTS88;34900959]I consider both OP. The Axetinguisher was balanced before the Degreaser was added to the game. It's too efficient and effective now, a lot of Pyro players don't use their primaries because of it.
Whenever I see a Pyro with a Degreaser, I have the feeling that I'm in an enclosed space and the walls are closing in on me fast - and they're covered with fire and barbed wire.
And, no, it was perfectly possible to kill all of the classes except for perhaps the Heavy and Pyro with the flamethrower alone. Strafing and juggling made this possible, there was no need for the Degreaser.[/QUOTE]
And this is why I love stock/flare/bs, lot's less ridicule and it's hella fun.
Backburner/Shotgun/Powerjack will always be my true love.
[QUOTE=NiGHTS88;34900959]I consider both OP. The Axetinguisher was balanced before the Degreaser was added to the game. It's too efficient and effective now, a lot of Pyro players don't use their primaries because of it.
Whenever I see a Pyro with a Degreaser, I have the feeling that I'm in an enclosed space and the walls are closing in on me fast - and they're covered with fire and barbed wire.
And, no, it was perfectly possible to kill all of the classes except for perhaps the Heavy and Pyro with the flamethrower alone. Strafing and juggling made this possible, there was no need for the Degreaser.[/QUOTE]
Axetinguisher needs a nerf.
it's pretty damn OP, but it's just BORING now.
every single Pyro is a Puff Sting The Magic Dragon.
I think I may be the only one who uses Backburner or Stock on any of their loadouts.
give it either slower firing speed or give it +10% bullet vulnerability, something like that.
[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;34902875]I think I may be the only one who uses Backburner or Stock on any of their loadouts.[/QUOTE]i use flamethrower/flare gun/axe babe <3
Getting critical hits with the flare gun is very satisfying.
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