I sense a lot of anger in the last few posters regarding the Axtinguisher, so let me break it down for you guys. Do note that I am presuming that the Pyro player has the Degreaser in his primary slot, for the sake of this discussion.
The Axtinguisher is, as you know, a melee weapon. As such, it has melee properties - It can only swing once every 0.8 seconds, it has pitiful range, and hit detection is wonky just like with every other melee in the game.
Because it is a melee weapon, it is terrible at dealing with more than one target at a time. It lacks the splash damage that the explosives have or the piercing that the flamethrowers have. Even if the Pyro does manage to kill 1 person, he will be among a group of enemy players with only his melee weapon being held out.
This is the part where those players are supposed to tear that Pyro to shreds, they have a numeric advantage, they have a range advantage, they have a damage advantage, and they most certainly should have a health advantage unless they were too oblivious to shoot the Pyro who was assaulting their teammate.
The Axtinguisher shines in 1v1 because of a few reasons:
A) It does not place the Pyro in immediate danger since there are no threats in the near vicinity.
B) It is a near-guaranteed kill on all but the bulky classes.
C) It excels at burst damage.
A lot of mediocre Pyros use their Axtinguisher as if it were their only way to kill; this is the reason why they are mediocre -- they are overextending themselves to the point that they're flat-out risking their lives to get a "sure kill" when pulling out their secondary weapon would have gotten the job done just as well. Whipping out the Axtinguisher gets them killed in more places than they should be dying because enemy knockback was capable of keeping them out of melee range or they simply left themselves open to be attacked by their target's teammates. You guys can ask Huey Lewis if you want another testimony on this, but I will stand by my own rationale for this.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;34903642]I sense a lot of anger in the last few posters regarding the Axtinguisher, so let me break it down for you guys. Do note that I am presuming that the Pyro player has the Degreaser in his primary slot, for the sake of this discussion.
The Axtinguisher is, as you know, a melee weapon. As such, it has melee properties - It can only swing once every 0.8 seconds, it has pitiful range, and hit detection is wonky just like with every other melee in the game.
Because it is a melee weapon, it is terrible at dealing with more than one target at a time. It lacks the splash damage that the explosives have or the piercing that the flamethrowers have. Even if the Pyro does manage to kill 1 person, he will be among a group of enemy players with only his melee weapon being held out.
This is the part where those players are supposed to tear that Pyro to shreds, they have a numeric advantage, they have a range advantage, they have a damage advantage, and they most certainly should have a health advantage unless they were too oblivious to shoot the Pyro who was assaulting their teammate.
The Axtinguisher shines in 1v1 because of a few reasons:
A) It does not place the Pyro in immediate danger since there are no threats in the near vicinity.
B) It is a near-guaranteed kill on all but the bulky classes.
C) It excels at burst damage.
A lot of mediocre Pyros use their Axtinguisher as if it were their only way to kill; this is the reason why they are mediocre -- they are overextending themselves to the point that they're flat-out risking their lives to get a "sure kill" when pulling out their secondary weapon would have gotten the job done just as well. Whipping out the Axtinguisher gets them killed in more places than they should be dying because enemy knockback was capable of keeping them out of melee range or they simply left themselves open to be attacked by their target's teammates. You guys can ask Huey Lewis if you want another testimony on this, but I will stand by my own rationale for this.[/QUOTE]
I remember arguing this point all the time when I used to go on SPUF.
Bad Pyros use the Axtinguisher as a weapon. Good Pyros use it as a tool.
It should not be your primary source of kills, it should be reserved for special occasions that could not be solved through simpler, less up-close-and-personal approach.
Bad Pyros don't see this for one reason: it's extremely easy to kill a bad player with the Axtinguisher, or even a group of them. This prevents them from advancing any further as a Pyro, and they never see a need to unless they play against better players.
It's not necessarily a bad thing for other players, it's just bad for themselves. It's like if you purely used your Rocket Launcher as Soldier, or only your Sticky Launcher as Demo. You have other weapons, other tools, other strategies to utilize. Make use of them!
Why does getting killed by the Axtinguisher mean you are bad.
[QUOTE=A B.A. Survivor;34905037]Why does getting killed by the Axtinguisher mean you are bad.[/QUOTE]
Not once did he nor I ever say or even imply that. Go reread.
when i see a phlog i launch my rockets at it
that's my opinion.
it's too bad. it's a great, fun looking weapon and effect. hopefully the scout primary is more useful than the phlog
fun to do it wait for the taunt, then let him chase into your own flames while backpedaling. phlog loses. it's even easier with classes with real guns
Best part about the phlogistonator: crit uber pyros.
I don't care if it's not useful, it's hilarious.
I don't think the problem is that it's "OP", but rather how obnoxious it is - what with the low-health pyro taunting right in front of your face, gaining all that lost health back while being protected by Dead Ringer-esque damage reduction, and if that wasn't enough to add to the insult, the guy proceeds to try to roast you with full blown crits.
I think it's fun. I don't have a problem with Phlogistinator pyros, nor so I have problems using it...
[QUOTE=Unisath;34903699]I remember arguing this point all the time when I used to go on SPUF.
Bad Pyros use the Axtinguisher as a weapon. Good Pyros use it as a tool.
It should not be your primary source of kills, it should be reserved for special occasions that could not be solved through simpler, less up-close-and-personal approach.
Bad Pyros don't see this for one reason: it's extremely easy to kill a bad player with the Axtinguisher, or even a group of them. This prevents them from advancing any further as a Pyro, and they never see a need to unless they play against better players.
It's not necessarily a bad thing for other players, it's just bad for themselves. It's like if you purely used your Rocket Launcher as Soldier, or only your Sticky Launcher as Demo. You have other weapons, other tools, other strategies to utilize. Make use of them![/QUOTE]
You just made me have to rethink how I use the axtinguisher. Good for you.
Anyways, the only problem that I have with the Phlogistonator is it's reach. For some reason, I feel like it can reach farther then other flamethrowers. Other then that, I'd say it's pretty balanced.
TF2 is actually p. much the most balanced game.
Well not maybe most balanced given some more or less recent "shit" but I don't see the need to give up on my vintage-rename-stock weapons that I've hard for like 4 and a half years. During which I also accumulated a single, or two, or none, special hat for each class.
And the good thing, I don't feel any unbalance, other than common usual spam (which F2Ps learn fast, especially when I FORCE them into it) which is easily "counterable" when you know how it ALL works.
Not that TF2 is that complex, point is; it's just more or less the weird items that make it complicated.. Not for me.
Flamethrower crits have falloff distance, the only weapon in the game to do so. Also, the DPS of crit flames is around the same as standard minigun damage, which has infinite range and can also get crits on top of that.
Why do people complain so much about being killed in an instant by a primary weapon at close range? All other 4 combat classes will fuck your shit up at that range even without crits (and with crits you are dead in a single shot), why does the close quarters class killing you at close quarters generate so much rage? You OUTRANGE IT AS ANY OTHER CLASS, and if it ambushed you, nice work on his part. What's next, complain about falling on a sticky trap? Getting gunned down by a Spy as you confidently snipe away from your team with the Razorback?
Weapon is only good against bad players. If ambushing, the Backburner does a better job with the slighty higher damage output in the back, and the Airblast. This thing should remain with its current damage (that's it, -10% damage bonus when the Vanilla gets buffed to BB damage).
[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;34902875]Axetinguisher needs a nerf.
it's pretty damn OP, but it's just BORING now.
every single Pyro is a Puff Sting The Magic Dragon.
I think I may be the only one who uses Backburner or Stock on any of their loadouts.
give it either slower firing speed or give it +10% bullet vulnerability, something like that.[/QUOTE]
"Unaffected by weapon switch speed stats" would balance it.
the only things i think they really need change on phlog is the visuals related to the weapon:
first, they need change that flame effect, so both the pyro and his enemies knows where the flames are actualy going.
second, when pyro got his mmmph bar full there should be a way to other people know it, for example that canister below the weapon should glow and/or sparkle.
While I don't have any huge complaints about the power of the Phlogistinator itself, it does bother me that a vast majority of people who I see use it are not using it with the Manmelter. This means they're choosing the playstyle that benefits the rest of their team the [I]least[/I]. Say what you will about the "original intent" of the Pyro, but airblasting and extinguishing have become such a huge part of what the Pyro is now, that it frustrates me to see weapons that throw it out in favor of trying to get a few extra crits.
Would you rather have a Pyro on your team helping to light enemies on fire, push back Ubers and extinguish teammates, or would you rather have a Pyro that goes off to do his own thing, only to get backstabbed 50% of the time he's attempting his Mmmph taunt?
[QUOTE=wunderufl;34909857]While I don't have any huge complaints about the power of the Phlogistinator itself, it does bother me that a vast majority of people who I see use it are not using it with the Manmelter. This means they're choosing the playstyle that benefits the rest of their team the [I]least[/I]. Say what you will about the "original intent" of the Pyro, but airblasting and extinguishing have become such a huge part of what the Pyro is now, that it frustrates me to see weapons that throw it out in favor of trying to get a few extra crits.
Would you rather have a Pyro on your team helping to light enemies on fire, push back Ubers and extinguish teammates, or would you rather have a Pyro that goes off to do his own thing, only to get backstabbed 50% of the time he's attempting his Mmmph taunt?[/QUOTE]
I barely ever get backstabbed when I'm taunting the crits on. It's all about where you hide and pop out when you're doing so. There is a strategy to it. Also, I find the flare gun more useful than the man melter when it comes to using the Phlogistinator. That's some long-range Mmmph charge right there, I can't be worried about other teammates when I've already chosen to be a 100% brutal offense pyro. Anyways I generally only use the Phlog on offense. For defense I switch back to Degreaser.
But yeah Phlog can be pretty overpowered, especially against a less-than-adequate enemy team.
[QUOTE=sasurai;34910904]But yeah Phlog can be pretty overpowered, especially against a less-than-adequate enemy team.[/QUOTE]
I don't think I've said this enough times in balance discussions.
[h2]Incompetence does not imply balance nor imbalance[/h2]
The weapon itself isn't overpowered against bad players, the bad players are simply too bad to know how to deal with it. You could just as easily stomp them with one of the more potent primary options or even other classes. It has nothing to do with the weapon.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;34911098]I don't think I've said this enough times in balance discussions.
[h2]Incompetence does not imply balance nor imbalance[/h2]
The weapon itself isn't overpowered against bad players, the bad players are simply too bad to know how to deal with it. You could just as easily stomp them with one of the more potent primary options or even other classes. It has nothing to do with the weapon.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but even with good players you can spawn camp for a bit until there is a giant load of players queued up in spawn. They peak out and they're dead in two seconds. The ones who are on fire when the crit effect ends fuel your next Mmmph and heal you completely. Rinse and repeat until they get their shit together.
It's a really fascinating weapon in terms of balance. It's an unstoppable (well, still stoppable) force of death when it's active but before it's active, anyone with half a brain should know how easy it is to take out a Pyro with no airblast, no back-crits and no fast-switching capabilities, so the Pyro of course has to be extra careful. All it really needs is less damage resistance while taunt-activating it, as right now it's far to easy to run in with a full charge, puff a heavy, then taunt immediately causing a couple of particles to crit as you taunt near invincibly before you annihilate everyone within range.
Since Valve is probably going to add new voice lines for the Pyro soon, they oughta make it so that a Pyro with a full Mmmph bar cackles and laughs maniacally [i]constantly[/i].
Another Idea I had was that the normal 90% damage protection should remain, but only for bullets. Explosives only get 65%, and Melee weapons crit a taunting Pyro. They should also make the taunt last longer, something like the Pyro flicking switches and adjusting the canister or something.
When I see a sniper with razorback, I gun him down even if I don't really want to kill him, just to teach him razorback is shit.
When I see a phlog pyro, I switch to soldier for the same reason.
[QUOTE=Drury;34912416]When I see a sniper with razorback, I gun him down even if I don't really want to kill him, just to teach him razorback is shit.
When I see a phlog pyro, I switch to soldier for the same reason.[/QUOTE]
What makes razorback shit?
Sounds like you just kinda whiny... "I don't like that weapon so I'ma do something to spite you!" The razorback at least gives the sniper a chance at survival against a spy. Otherwise he's a free kill.
[QUOTE=sasurai;34912530]What makes razorback shit.[/QUOTE]
It works against 1 class's 1 weapon slot 1 time from 1 direction.
Spies still have guns that can take the Sniper down before he can react. What doesn't make it shit?
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;34912551]It works against 1 class's 1 weapon slot 1 time from 1 direction.
What doesn't make it shit?[/QUOTE]
Read my edit. The spy has a 100% free kill otherwise, his only job would be to camp that sniper and keep killing him. Razorback gives sniper a fighting chance against an always-present threat.
[QUOTE=sasurai;34912554]Read my edit.[/QUOTE]
Read my edit that got in so fast that it doesn't appear as an edit.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;34912551]It works against 1 class's 1 weapon slot 1 time from 1 direction.
Spies still have guns that can take the Sniper down before he can react. What doesn't make it shit?[/QUOTE]
Then maybe you could say that those spy's weapons are shit, not the razorback. The razorback was around before the enforcer. Either way I usually survive if a spy is firing at me. You just have to play as a semi-aware sniper with a razorback on.
[QUOTE=sasurai;34912530]What makes razorback shit?
Sounds like you just kinda whiny... "I don't like that weapon so I'ma do something to spite you!" The razorback at least gives the sniper a chance at survival against a spy. Otherwise he's a free kill.[/QUOTE]
Uhhh I use vanilla revolver and even then razorback usually prolongs sniper's life by mere microseconds. With amby he's down in the same time it would take spy to get behind his back.
It's a waste of secondary slot, and it's sad to see snipers use it. Jarate detects even DEAD RINGER!
[QUOTE=Drury;34912668]Uhhh I use vanilla revolver and even then razorback usually prolongs sniper's life by mere microseconds. With amby he's down in the same time it would take spy to get behind his back.
It's a waste of secondary slot, and it's sad to see snipers use it. Jarate detects even DEAD RINGER![/QUOTE] How you gonna use jarate if you already died of a bare back?
A Spy 3 shots AT LEAST an sniper at close range. 2 shot with Amby or Enforcer. It is STILL a free kill, I even taunt every time I gun down a Razorback Sniper.
It is only useful if sticking next to a sentry, and most Snipers don't go near them to snipe.
[QUOTE=Eriorguez;34912802]A Spy 3 shots AT LEAST an sniper at close range. 2 shot with Amby or Enforcer. It is STILL a free kill, I even taunt every time I gun down a Razorback Sniper.
It is only useful if sticking next to a sentry, and most Snipers don't go near them to snipe.[/QUOTE]
I would say the opposite, it's most useful if you're not around a sentry.
If you're out on your own away from sentry range you're a free kill. The spy firing the bullets if he doesn't instantly crit kill you will alert you to his presence. Without him firing the weapons and a you as a sniper having a bare back you're just a dead piece of meat with 0% chance of surviving the encounter.
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