[QUOTE=Dandizz;21888922]I have a problem with his tests on the axtinguisher. He only tested it on the scout, which has the lowest HP in the game, and no one really uses the axtinguisher on the scout. He should have tested the backburner and axtinguisher on the heavy, which is a more common target of the axtinguisher (at least for me). I think lighting the heavy on fire and then hitting it twice with the axtinguisher would be faster then spamming the backburner. Anyone wanna test that?[/QUOTE]
I was about to say this, his axtinguisher test was complete and utter bullshit.
He neglected the fact that the airblast isn't just used to reflect missles but can also bounce around enemies, which is pretty much impossible to avoid if you are the target of it, with the update it's now so fast that all the pyro has to do is constantly spam the button then follow with shotgun,flamethrower or axtinguisher.
That aspect of the airblasts ability to bounce around enemies should be reduced somewhat, but the ability to reflect missles should remain the same but I believe the pyro should also have greater ability to force away sticky bombs.
His tests are pretty biased anyway, the axtinguisher test for instance he failed to talk about the damage output, all he did was talk about how long it takes to kill the enemy! WHAT! If he tested it on a heavy that wouldn't be the case because the damage output of the axtinguisher would kill the heavy faster, but he tested it on a scout, seriously? Why would you ever use the axtinguisher on the scout.
One major point he fails to take into account is accuracy, Their are far to many of these "the flamethrower is weak" argurments but many base their case (like this guy) under the assumption that the player has perfect accuracy. Please realise that the flamethrower is much easier to aim then the shotgun, espicially in very close quaters when the pyro would typically be circling around you like crazy. In this video though he only tests the shotgun on a pyro standing still, obviously the shotgun would win, but try that in a real-game scenario unless the enemy gets lucky 9 times outta 10 the flamethrower will come out on top, I mean how many times do you get two perfect point blank shotgun hits or even three perfect mid/short range hits, he assumes that you get all those shots, chances are you're going to miss at least one shot (unless you miss all of them because of the pyro strafing) and by then the flamthrower has taken you out as up close there's not really much way to miss because it's a continous stream as opposed to single fire. He also fails to take into account that when the pyro turns the flamethrower curves with him unlike the shotgun that only fires straight so ideally a pyro would easily win in close quaters provided he circles the target and doesn't stand still like an idiot (i.e in this video).
I think the flamthrower damge changes taking into account what I have said so far are fair changes, I believe afterburn was always a horrible issue, consider this. I get into a firefight and have 50hp left, a pyro sees me for a split second and randomly sets me on fire I lose about 2hp from the flamer but recieve afterburn and lose that remaining 48hp it causes so many instances in which a pyro hasn't been involved in hurting me but gets the kill because in most cases he accidentally sets me on fire admist a firefight. So I hope we can all agree on the current -3 damage twice per second for 6 seconds (36 dmg in total) afterburn damage for this reason.
I think due to these changes in afterburn and damage though flamethrower should recieve a SLIGHT buff in damage of the flamethrower to further compensate. Like I said earlier I think valve should consider reducing the airblasts effectiveness for pushing enemy players as opposed to missles and I think things would be perfect.
[QUOTE=Drax-Quin;21889948]He neglected the fact that the airblast isn't just used to reflect missles but can also bounce around enemies, which is pretty much impossible to avoid if you are the target of it, with the update it's now so fast that all the pyro has to do is constantly spam the button then follow with shotgun,flamethrower or axtinguisher.[/quote]
But while the pyro is busy bouncing you around he can't directly damage you, but you can still shoot just fine. If you get taken by surprise it'll throw you off for a moment but after that taking out an airblasting pyro isn't really difficult.
[quote]That aspect of the airblasts ability to bounce around enemies should be reduced somewhat, but the ability to reflect missles should remain the same but I believe the pyro should also have greater ability to force away sticky bombs.[/quote]
Same as I said above.
[quote]His tests are pretty biased anyway, the axtinguisher test for instance he failed to talk about the damage output, all he did was talk about how long it takes to kill the enemy! WHAT! If he tested it on a heavy that wouldn't be the case because the damage output of the axtinguisher would kill the heavy faster, but he tested it on a scout, seriously? Why would you ever use the axtinguisher on the scout.[/quote]
I agree, the axtinguisher test wasn't good. Using it on any 125 HP class is pretty pointless.
[quote]One major point he fails to take into account is accuracy, There are some man of these weak flamethrower argurments but this guy and many others test the conditions under the assumption that the player has perfect accuracy. Please realise that the flamethrower is much easier to aim then the shotgun, espicially in close quaters when the pyro would typically be circling around you like crazy. In this video though he only tests the shotgun on a pyro standing still, obviously he shotgun would win, but try that in a real-game scenario unless the enemy gets lucky 9 times outta 10 the flamethrower will come out on top unless the enemy pyro backs off out of the range of the flamer and pulls off a few shotgun shots he fails to take this into account when the pyro turns the flamethrower curves with him unlike the shotgun that only fires straight so ideally a pyro would easily win in close quaters provided he circles the target and doesn't stand still like an idiot.[/quote]
Aiming the shotgun isn't very hard, and the shotgun has the advantage of not having to be held onto the enemy for it's full effect to be realized. That and the pyro's lack of any advanced movement options at all means that he's very predictable.
[quote]I think the patch taking into account what I've said so far is fair, I believe afterburn was always a horrible issue, consider this. I get into a firefight and have 50hp left, a pyro sees me for a split second and randomly sets me on fire I lose about 2hp from the flamer but recieve afterburn and lose that remaining 48hp it causes so many instances in which a pyro hasn't been involved in hurting me but gets the kill because in most cases he accidentally sets me on fire admist a firefight.[/quote]
This ties into one of the original purposes of the pyro: to ambush a group of players and cause chaos by setting everyone on fire.
[quote]When I play scout I may have 50hp and be alright because I can simply dodge around most enemy fire and use my speed to my advantage but it's incredibly ridiciolous when I meet a pyro because like I said the flamethrower is so easy to aim and due to the fact it curves I can't get around a pyro very easily if I'm playing a much-more closed in map such as ctf_2fort. I have to run all the way back to get health because a pyro saw me for a second it's stupid. So I hope we can all agree on the current -3 damage twice per second for 6 seconds (36 dmg in total) afterburn damage for this reason.[/quote]
Well, if you're a 50hp Scout in an enclosed area pretty much any class is going to kill you easily. Pyro is supposed to thrive in an enclosed space where you can be easily trapped, just like Sniper is supposed to be great at long range. That doesn't mean it's unfair. And afterburn had plenty of counters added with almost every major update, so the damage almost never got to reach it's full potential.
[quote]I think due to these changes in afterburn though flamethrower should recieve a SLIGHT buff in damager to compensate. Like I said reduce the airblasts effectiveness for pushing enemy players as opposed to missles and I think things would be perfect.[/QUOTE]
In my opinion the damage and afterburn nerfs should be undone. They don't make the pyro more "skillful," they force you into using airblast at the expense of doing less damage overall with your [B]primary[/B] weapon.
This is a team game, though. Pyros benefit the team by reducing the power of spies and being able to consistently contribute to damage in battle.
Well I reset my stats a while back. Before I reset them, pyro was my 2nd most played class with 200+ hrs (Soldier at 300).
Right now...
[IMG]http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f47/upthearse/Untitled-1-82.jpg[/IMG]
Played pyro once and he felt really weak.
Pyro is now an even better class, i find i survive longer with my trusty puff-sting since i go after singular enemies not groups.
[QUOTE=PunchedInFac;21891744]Pyro is now an even better class, i find i survive longer with my trusty puff-sting since i go after singular enemies not groups.[/QUOTE]
What does the puff n' sting strategy have to do with the flamethrower damage nerf?
The update itself didn't do anything to improve it.
I have to agree with the video, The Flamethower is simply out-matched at this point.
Pyros are only good for spy checking and some small support roles now. Any sort of attacking ability he has is easily outmatched by Soldiers, Demos, Heavies, and even scouts.
I just feel that it's unfair for us Pyros to get yet another nerf.
And afterburn would only do about 30 damage, meaning you wouldn't die with only 50HP.
I never use Backburner. I think it's more useful to help teammates AND you get an advantage over Soldiers, Demos, Huntsman/jarate Snipers and flaregun pyros.
[QUOTE=FluffyMcNutter;21892052]What does the puff n' sting strategy have to do with the flamethrower damage nerf?
The update itself didn't do anything to improve it.[/QUOTE]
Easier to airblast.
Keep the damage nerf, but take the afterburn back to what it was. I would be fine with that.
On the upside, my Medic career got a whole lot easier.
Give pyro a [i]slight[/i] speed buff. Somewhere between his and medics speed.
[QUOTE=ZestyLemons;21887421]Didn't even mention the Flare gun.[/QUOTE]
Well i think he did this test to show how the flame throwers fare against other.
If it was about the pyro as à whole the home wrecer
should have been mention aswell.
Backburner needs the old bonus hp back.
They made the Pyro more of s Support class now.
Those saying that pyro isn't useless: he's still worse than any other class.
No wonder i keep getting kills with the shotgun, and not with the flamethrower.
The pyro shouldn't be an instant win in CQC, it's way too common in this game.
Also his airblast somewhat counters 2 out of 3 heavy classes which are vital in pushes.
He's not really bad just not that good push/death match material which I guess everyone wants all classes to be.
I can't say I agree with this video. He isn't comparing the usage of weapons against other weapons, he is instead comparing 2 weapons against each other. The fact that a pyro won't stand still when using the flamethrower along with the flame animation you get on the side of your screen is also a contributer to how effective the damage is.
The Axstinguisher test was just a joke, that has already been said in this thread.
On a related note. Spoony talked about the problem with comparing 2 weapons against each other just by looking at damage. [URL]http://spoonyexperiment.com/2010/05/06/vlog-5-6-10-the-deadliest-warrior/[/URL] Take into account that he is talking about the Deadliest Warrior, but because their testing methods in the show are about the same as the testing methods in this video I think it is relevant.
[QUOTE=Diealready;21889184]Great! Now melee spies actually have a chance of defeating a pyro.
shit sucks for hardcore pyro players that actually use technique to what they do (other than w+m1 or m1+m2+corner players (you can't seriously say you haven't had this happen to you, a pyro sets you on fire then blastbacks you into a corner so you can't fucking move and then you die.)) It's sad to see that the pyro got nerfed but players that w+m1 will now be useless.[/QUOTE]
How about shooting back? Do you really just stand there looking at the Pyro blast you while you burn to death?
Well I see this as a blessing because it taught me the importance of my other tools, my shotgun, my axetinguisher, my flare gun and my spy tactics. This turns pyro into an effective hybrid attack/hit N run class which no other class can really match.
Nucleus is fun now.
[QUOTE=dvondrake;21892670]Admittedly I as well think W+M1 is rather annoying (that is, when they don't take their finger off their left mouse button even when they aren't in range of anyone yet) but nerfing isn't the way to fix it. This just completely fucks everything up. Pyro is meant to be a CQ class, but now he can't even do that properly. If you ask me, the best way to fix W+M1 is to add some kind of overheat timer to the flamethrowers, so if you hold down the trigger long enough it'll overheat and disable for a few seconds. That way W+M1 is no longer a valid tactic so you don't get people whining about that but you don't remove it at the expense of the class's usefulness in battle.
I can no longer play Pyro as I once did before. He just can't go up against anything anymore, he just doesn't stand a lick of a chance against any other class now. This [B]needs[/B] to be undone, or at least toned down a bit.[/QUOTE]
I actually like this overheating idea, if they return the original afterburn and apply this nerf then I would be satisfied. All this current patch does is make pyro's favor airblasts over flamethrower (causing loads of jokes about him being renamed wind man or something) so now its pretty much m+w2 spamming this doesn't solve the initial problem it just places it eslewhere.
Some people call them VALVe, I call them BITCHES! :911:
[QUOTE=clanratc;21897604]On a related note. Spoony talked about the problem with comparing 2 weapons against each other just by looking at damage. [URL]http://spoonyexperiment.com/2010/05/06/vlog-5-6-10-the-deadliest-warrior/[/URL] Take into account that he is talking about the Deadliest Warrior, but because their testing methods in the show are about the same as the testing methods in this video I think it is relevant.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure in that video Spoony is complaining that:
A) They do two entirely different tests to form a comparison.
B) They're testing weaponry, not tactics.
C) They're testing operator skill, not weapon damage.
None of those seem to be anything related to the video on the Pyro's damage.
Fucking kids crying about "OMG I WAS CAUGHT OFF GUARD BY A PYRO, OMG PYRO IS OP :saddowns:" Thats why this happens.
I fucking love that guy's voice.
Doesn't fire also pass through people and light people behind them on fire?
Yes, but the effect is minimal.
[QUOTE=PunchedInFac;21898754] This turns pyro into an effective hybrid attack/hit N run class which no other class can really match.
[/QUOTE]
Scout with Fan. Plus his poof does damage.
[QUOTE=Vaught;21903430]Yes, but the effect is minimal.
Scout with Fan. Plus his poof does damage.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but the scout unloads his two shells and is stuck in reloading for a while, meanwhile, the teammates of the fallen foe kill him, pyros can now set aflame the foe, puff them around and disperse them for an incoming attack by their friends and they dont need to reload or change weapons saving time that can be used to run away or keep flaming. Which the scout cannot do because the FAN is a single target weapon.
I wouldn't if the Flamethrower's damage was increased slightly. Perhaps by five percent... The 20% reduction seems a little too drastic for me.
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