Weapon Balance Thread:Now with 50% Less Dumb Ratings - Games

[QUOTE=Zadrave;37073129]Say hello to the most useless weapon in the game. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/40/Backpack_Neon_Annihilator.png/250px-Backpack_Neon_Annihilator.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] I argue that the Sharpened Volcano Fragment is more useless than that

[QUOTE=lemonade1950;37073269]I argue that the Sharpened Volcano Fragment is more useless than that[/QUOTE] I beg to differ. The sharpened volcano fragment works pretty well in medieval mode. Try to stay in ambush under water in medieval mode with the neon and see how it turns out. Then come back and post the results.

[QUOTE=lemonade1950;37073269]I argue that the Sharpened Volcano Fragment is more useless than that[/QUOTE] [img]http://tf2wiki.net/w/images/thumb/8/85/RED_Dalokohs_Bar.png/250px-RED_Dalokohs_Bar.png[/img]

[QUOTE=Scarabix;37073328]I beg to differ. The sharpened volcano fragment works pretty well in medieval mode. Try to stay in ambush under water in medieval mode with the neon and see how it turns out. Then come back and post the results.[/QUOTE] If what the wiki says is true about it dealing critical damage on people coated in Mad Milk, it sounds like it would be MORE useful in medieval mode, given that you have a mad milk scout on your team. Edit: [QUOTE=NeoDement;37073341][img]http://tf2wiki.net/w/images/thumb/8/85/RED_Dalokohs_Bar.png/250px-RED_Dalokohs_Bar.png[/img][/QUOTE] Nevermind neo wins

[QUOTE=lemonade1950;37073344] Nevermind neo wins[/QUOTE] I think we can settle for this, yes.

[b]BUFFS[/b] Dalakohs Bar: Fills health 100 points each time it's eaten (instead of 50), but still just buffs health to 350. Mantreads: I'm tempted to say it should give an insta-kill. Landing on someone is such a rare ocurrance, it wouldn't really BREAK it. Maybe just make it do a guaranteed 100 or so damage and give it some other buffs as well (maybe a higher resistance to Sentry fire or something). Brass Beast: Slightly faster spin-up time (but still just slower than the stock). Tomislav: Fuck, I don't care, just ANYTHING to make it worth using. It was OP on Day 1. The second patch had it fine. Third time, it was still valid. After that, it's the weapon equivalent of the Gibus; only F2Ps who don't know any better use it. Warrior's Spirit: Maybe a bit of bullet resistance? I've never seen this used outside of Heavy boxing, added melee damage doesn't make up for such drastic health loss. Candy Cane: Less explosive vulnerability. Those health kits ain't gonna do shit if any explosive takes you out in one go. Sun on a Stick: Literally anything would make this better than it already is. Baby Face's Blaster: Damage buff. Honestly, it takes an absurd amount of shots to put down nearly anything with this. It's fun as fuck to use, but it's so inefficient, I end up using my melee to get most of my kills. Fan O War: Just a tad more damage, maybe as much as the Wrap Assassin or Atomizer. Cow Mangler: Set the reload time back the way it was, then this'll be perfect. Not being able to take out Sentries directly REALLY hurts a Soldier. Also, let it get Kritzed. Sharpened Volcano Fragment: Maybe a damage buff? It's just kinda useless as is. Claidheamh Mòr: Something other than just an increased charge. Maybe it makes you move a LITTLE slower, but does more damage? There's no reason to use this over something like the Eyelander. Eviction Notice: Maybe add a bleed effect? Or pull a Gunslinger and give it a guaranteed crit after X consecutive hits? Cozy Camper: Give the Sniper a bit more health for his trouble. It would work nicely, since it's made to allow you to continue sniping even if you're on fire or getting shot by a Heavy. Jarate: Make it usable in Medieval Mode. Pretty sure they had piss back then. [b]NERFS[/b] Soda Popper: Greatly reduced damage. Or a larger Hype Meter. Or make Hype drain when you stand still (and I mean drain as fast as it builds), so you need to KEEP moving. A good weapon for Scouts who can run AND aim. Liberty Launcher: A tiny damage nerf and no crits. Axetinguisher: Yeah yeah, I know, but hear me out; mini-crits burning targets AND gets random crits. Degreaser: Slightly upped airblast cost. Not as much as Backburner, but more than Stock. Bushwacka: Can't get random crits. That's probably the most annoying facet of this weapon. Spycicle: I'm actually fine with this weapon, but the kills SHOULD show up in the killfeed. I'm sporting like that. Pomson: I notice a LOT of hate for this (I love it, personally), but just decrease the amount of Uber it takes from (what is it, 10?) to maybe 5%. The cloak stolen should stay though. DR Spies are annoying enough, this is a nice counter.

[QUOTE=NeoDement;37073341][img]http://tf2wiki.net/w/images/thumb/8/85/RED_Dalokohs_Bar.png/250px-RED_Dalokohs_Bar.png[/img][/QUOTE] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/7/77/Backpack_Razorback.png[/t]

Insert long post about how the game is unbalanced here. You might not agree with most of these, but I'll leave them here anyway. I agree with most things in op's post. Soda popper - Slower reload speed and firing speed, why the hell does it have to be faster than the already questionably overpowered FaN. OR make the user suffer minicrits as well, like the crit a cola. Splendid screen - Need to charge at least 5 meters to damage, less point blank charge damage, seriously. Pomson - Less damage, does not burn cloak/uber OR uses metal as ammo Short circuit - More damage, burns cloak and uber instead of the pomson, uses less metal AND maybe uses energy instead of metal. Mini crits wet targets. CAN be critboosted. Damages everything in a area around yourself underwater, including yourself. Backburner - Minicrits instead of crits from behind OR takes more ammo per shot Phlogistinator - Takes more to charge, mini crits instead of crits, NO crazy health regeneration when you activate MMMPH or dead ringer like defence. Instead you should be vulnerable while taunting and not taunt infront of groups of enemies and make them run or die. Axtinguisher - Slower swing speed Neon sign - Slower swing speed Atomizer - Remove the damage penalty, or lower it. Leave the attack speed penalty. Degreaser - Unnecessary, pyro is fast enough to instakill with whatever shotgun/flare/axtinguisher. Mini sentries - slower firing speed OR make them miss moving targets sometimes. Reduce metal cost to refill ammo. Liberty launcher - reduce the explosive damage a bit. Third degree - Slower swing speed OR no random crits Amputator - -15 health Solemn vow - 50% less damage, make it a support weapon rather than a bonesaw upgrade. Chocolate bar - Able to nom it 3 times per full bar, each nom giving you 25 health or so. A lot faster than eating a sandvich. Pain train - able to move faster while carrying the intel. Fix the fucking bottle sounds, it's been, what, 2 years now? Every sword except the eyelander and HHHH - Doesn't decapitate, too repetitive. Make it a eyelander and HHHH exclusive aesthetic effect. Flamethrowers and afterburn - This might sound like i'm bashing on the pyro or something but I think the afterburn needs a slight tweak. To set someone on fire for the normal afterburn duration you MUST flame him for 1-2 seconds. If you flame for the less the person will stop burning as fast as the time you flamed him. Family business - A slight movement speed buff Pocket pistol - Less fire vulnerability for gods sake, it's a 1 second death if you run into a pyro. Guillotine - Less damage upon crit, or slower reload time. Wrap assassin - this weapon is joke, albeit fun to kill with, it's extremely hard to. More damage, add humiliation messages to it. Zatoichi - Restores 50% of your health, DOES NOT CRIT, ever. Seriously. Caber - Slightly less damage, so you are able to survive with little health as a medium class. Horrible taunt, give it to the handshake instead. Wanga prick - Not really a balance issue, but the fact that it's visible while cloaked bothers me. Extremely simple fix. Do it. [editline]4th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=iRunner;37073661][t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/7/77/Backpack_Razorback.png[/t][/QUOTE] Makes very bad spies completely ignore you. [editline]4th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=BanthaFodder;37073647] Axetinguisher: Yeah yeah, I know, but hear me out; mini-crits burning targets AND gets random crits. Degreaser: Slightly upped airblast cost. Not as much as Backburner, but more than Stock. [/QUOTE] I couldn't agree more. When I first suggested that the axtinguisher gets minicrits instead of crits I was flamed into oblivion.

I had an idea for the Splendid Screen (since lots of people seem to hate that too), so here's an idea I posted a while back (and it was pretty well recieved): Give it MORE knockback. An unskilled Demoknight will collide with their target, launching them over the horizon, swinging their melee at air while their quarry recovers and makes a run for it. A skilled Demoknight will swing JUST before the collision, elegantly rending their foes head from their neck. It'll separate the boys from the men, so to speak. Also it'll lead to a lot more "Class X gets launched over Cliff Y" frag videos, and those are never a bad thing.

[QUOTE=Scarabix;37072970]You want the liberty launcher nerfed? Are you fucking crazy? Only a fool would use it. You're gimping yourself of a rocket just to be slightly better against pyros and scouts? This shit doesn't need to be nerfed at all. No competent soldier would ever use it.[/QUOTE] Not actually nerfed,read it again bro,it says: ''Nerf/Rework'' [QUOTE=Scarabix;37072984]Haha and he wants to buff the babyface blaster, the scorch shot and the loch n load, my god this dude is hilarious.[/QUOTE] >Opinions. Schorch Shot is very situational,won't actually do more than detonator/flare gun unless it's a big map where you can fall. Loch N Load is a strange weapon,you can do loads with it but at the same time you can't,I never said it needed a big buff,just some tweaking. Babyfacing is really weak,you can't argue with that.

[QUOTE=Ond kaja;37071413]Remove "no random crits" on weapons, and add a real downside that applies even in no-crit servers.[/QUOTE] 1. valve should not be expected to compensate for people who choose to change the rules 2. No random crits is frequently used on weapons that have special crits, and this is, while also a downside, a way to help players learn what qualifies them a crit with the weapon. Getting random crits might confuse them. [editline]4th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Scarabix;37072970]You want the liberty launcher nerfed? Are you fucking crazy? Only a fool would use it. You're gimping yourself of a rocket just to be slightly better against pyros and scouts? This shit doesn't need to be nerfed at all. No competent soldier would ever use it.[/QUOTE] Liberty launcher is an awesome weapon. It's not OP but it's still very much viable. It's my favorite launcher. The three shots are enough to kill basically anything, and you barely have to aim. If you know what you're doing and play conservatively as opposed to spamming, you won't even think about that missing rocket. Though I will admit it makes rocket jumping riskier.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37076147] Liberty launcher is an awesome weapon. It's not OP but it's still very much viable. It's my favorite launcher. [/QUOTE] Maybe I'd love LL more if there were not so many douches with strange & dumb tagged LL that always killing me out of nowhere

I always viewed it as a dumb weapon in between the stock and direct hit, not as a crutch since it's not actually good for anything. I did use it pretty extensively at one point and then I decided to switch back to the stock and it was a night and day difference and it stayed that way.

Amputator /does not/ need an upgrade. It's amazing already and can out-perform a quick fix in healing capacity if the team mostly sticks together. Seriously, take it out on a payload map on either team and start using it to heal teammates around you, trying to wrap around corners during pushes. It doesn't need a nerf either, since the taunt leaves oneself wide open to backstabs and getting killed by grenades or other things.

I guess I'll just post my silly list here then. [QUOTE=Citizen Insane;37004562]I'd like to see a lot of balance changes. Soda Popper now gains hype from consectutive shots hit. +20% for each shot hit, -10% for each shot missed. Hype doesn't build from pistol shots or melee hits. Winger gets 6 shots and +30% damage. Pocket Pistol now has +25% fire vulnerability down from +50%. Removed damage penalty from the Sun-on-a-Stick and added no random crits and -20% swing rate. Fan O'War increases weapon switch speed. Wrap Assassin does more bleedout damage the further the ball goes. The Black Box now gains health from buildings hit, -15% firerate. Liberty Launcher now causes less knockback or something, can't really come up with a good nerf. Cow Mangler can now be crit boosted, removed the damage penalty and reload time penalty, removed the 5th rocket. Reverted Battalion's Backup back to its original stats. Reserve Shooter has been given 4 shots, fixed some cases where it would minicrit people when it shouldn't. Also gave it a new firing sound because it sounds awful. Merged Gunboats and Mantreads. (Uses Mantreads model.) Half-Zatoichi now has no random crits. Escape Plan does -50% damage. Market Gardener does +20% damage when in the air, -20% damage on the ground. (On top of the original attributes.) Family Business can now be used by Soldier. New skin. Degreaser now has -50% afterburn duration. Phlogistinator lets you taunt faster when activating Mmmph. Mmmph now works on all your weapons. No airblast penalty. Now does mini-crits instead of crits. No longer fully heals, gives you half health back. Manmelter has been given a reload animation or a refill bar. +20% damage. Scorch Shot no longer has a damage penalty, but still no crits on burning hit. Axtinguisher has a -20% weapon switch rate. Postal Pummeler has been given new stats. Sharpened Volcano Fragment has been given +20 afterburn damage, +15 health on melee hit. Third Degree now does no damage on the target being healed, only on the Medic healing him. Still hurts individual targets. +20% faster swinging rate. Family Business can now be used by Pyro. New skin. Reserve Shooter has been given a Pyro-specific skin. Booties now have a +300% increase in turning control. Bootlegger has been given new stats to compliment Stickylaunchers. Fixed the insta-crit glitch with the Chargin' Targe and the Splendid Screen. Nessie's Nine Iron and Scottish Handshake have been given new stats that compliment explosives. Removed slowdown on wearer for the Skullcutter. Gave it -20% swing speed and no random crits. Claidheamh Mòr adds +0.5 seconds of charge duration for every head you take. Removed slower spin-up time from the Natascha. Brass Beast penetrates targets or is more accurate. Tomislav gets its -40% spin up time back, but wearer has 50 less health. (Was in beta originally.) Family Business fires +20% faster, builds up a damage boost for each shot you hit without missing. (On top of original stats.) Dalokohs Bar is now throwable. Eating it takes less time. I have no idea how to fix the Steak. It's just bad. Warrior's Spirit now steals health and/or ammo on kill. Fists of Steel have been reverted back to -60% damage from ranged sources. No random crits. Eviction Notice now makes victim bleed on hit, bleed damage stack on consective hits. Damage and swinging speed are now equal to the Scouts bat. No random crits. Pomson no longer penetrates targets, can now be reflected. Also fixed the cloak drain being broken as all hell. Wrangler now has a cool down after firing for too long. Short Circuit now only drains 15 metal. Mini-Sentry now does less damage. Winger can now be used by the Engineer. New skin. Übersaw no longer randomly crits. Amputator now taunts faster, but deals -20% less damage. Solemn Vow has -15% slower weapon switch speed. Bazaar Bargain now fires +15% faster. Scope has been modified to fit the model. Razorback and Dangershield are merged. (Uses Dangershield model, with adjustments to fit the Razorback stats ofc.) Bushwacka no longer randomly crits and has a -20% swinging speed. Enforcer has +10% spread, making it less accurate. Removed silent killer attribute from the Spy-cicle. (Doesn't matter all that much since you can still hear people turning into statues.)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Ticon;37079134]Amputator /does not/ need an upgrade. It's amazing already and can out-perform a quick fix in healing capacity if the team mostly sticks together. Seriously, take it out on a payload map on either team and start using it to heal teammates around you, trying to wrap around corners during pushes. It doesn't need a nerf either, since the taunt leaves oneself wide open to backstabs and getting killed by grenades or other things.[/QUOTE] What about phlog's taunt? With that logic you'd need the phlog to NOT give you any defense (which is exactly what needs to be removed)

[QUOTE=sergiuung;37081072]What about phlog's taunt? With that logic you'd need the phlog to NOT give you any defense (which is exactly what needs to be removed)[/QUOTE] I'd say give the Phlog taunt a LITTLE bit of protection. Seeing as how Medics can regenerate health (and if they're using the Medieval Medic set, they can do so even faster) and how Pyros are meant to be on the front lines, distracting enemies and causing a ruckus, a little bit of extra protection during the taunt isn't exactly an outrageous request. Less than it currently is, but still a little something.

The taunt is used as a safety net, usually because when you're charging mmmph you're probably cooking someones face. Popping mmmph can save your life, what I think is an equal trade off for airblasting and running away. Why do people gut the phlog anyways? It's NOT overpowered in any way, the kneejerk reaction it got was from it rewarding W+m1 with crits, maybe that pissed people off but the weapons stats are SOLID.

I remember my team just gang banging a pyro while he was taunting and he died during it.

It's kinda hard to deem a weapon like the Phlogistinator as Balanced, or UP or even OP. It's stats are odd and I would call it a dumb weapon really.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37076147]1. valve should not be expected to compensate for people who choose to change the rules[/quote] Although random crits is a flawed idea anyway and thus changing the settings to disable them is a completely reasonable decision that many server owners take. [quote] Liberty launcher is an awesome weapon. It's not OP but it's still very much viable. It's my favorite launcher. The three shots are enough to kill basically anything, and you barely have to aim. If you know what you're doing and play conservatively as opposed to spamming, you won't even think about that missing rocket. Though I will admit it makes rocket jumping riskier.[/QUOTE] Liberty Launcher is not OP but it's only useful if you can't aim with the regular rocket launcher.

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;37085028]It's kinda hard to deem a weapon like the Phlogistinator as Balanced, or UP or even OP. It's stats are odd and I would call it a dumb weapon really.[/QUOTE] That's really what I think about a lot of the weapons, rather than whether they need a straight buff or nerf. A good portion of weapons just seem... confused. Like even they don't know what purpose they're supposed to serve or how to serve it.

I'm confused about the Hitman's Heatmakers one stat, blowing heads off. For a weapon that is silenced, I can't help but feel, that should be replaced with the silent killer attribute from the YER, where people do not scream when they are killed with a headshot. It also won't show up on the killfeed upon headshot. And of course the tracer rounds in Focus. Complete bogus, they give away your position when you are trying to be sneaky. That's all I really have to say, I reccommend it nonetheless.

[QUOTE=brenz;37088688]I'm confused about the Hitman's Heatmakers one stat, blowing heads off. For a weapon that is silenced, I can't help but feel, that should be replaced with the silent killer attribute from the YER, where people do not scream when they are killed with a headshot. It also won't show up on the killfeed upon headshot. And of course the tracer rounds in Focus. Complete bogus, they give away your position when you are trying to be sneaky. That's all I really have to say, I reccommend it nonetheless.[/QUOTE] The Hitman's Heatmaker just confuses me in general; its utility seems too similar to the Bazaar Bargain (punishing bodyshots, increased chargerate as the bonus). Actually, I'd like to see how it'd play out if they removed focus mode and put in the silent killer stat, perhaps only on headshot kills.

[QUOTE=Combyne;37088734]The Hitman's Heatmaker just confuses me in general; its utility seems too similar to the Bazaar Bargain (punishing bodyshots, increased chargerate as the bonus). Actually, I'd like to see how it'd play out if they removed focus mode and put in the silent killer stat, perhaps only on headshot kills.[/QUOTE] Competitive leagues would probably ban it if they did that. You could lose a good amount of your team and not know until it's too late [sp]then again you can always check the scoreboard to see who's dead[/sp]

Okay, some reworks for pyro Phlo: +100% airblast cost. -10% damage. Fire damage fills "mmph" meter, when full inflict minicrits (no taunt needed) (basically, it's a soda popper). Maybe give it slower weapon switch too Manmelter: minicrits on burning targets (it relies on having a pyro on the enemy team, and that sucks.) Axtinguisher: -15 health on wearer Detonator: 20 base damage (is 30) crits on burning targets. (Initial hits will do less damage, crits go from 45ish to 60. makes it better for comboing, but not as good as the flare gun) Scorch shot: 15 base damage. Crits on burning targets. Instead of falling to the ground after hitting something, flare explodes right away (so the explosion doesn't do any damage anymore) maybe give it the same jump height as the detonator. maybe. but only if gets the extra self damage too Third Degree: -20% damage against players who aren't being healed. Neon Sign: -20% damage against non-wet (dry?) players (so it does full crit damage on wet players. still the most situational weapon in the game) Sharpened Volcano F: +25% afterburn damage (so you use it sort of like the axtinguisher as a last blow, but the killing blow isn't immediate. the pro vs the ax is that you wouldn't lose the -15 health)

[QUOTE=Tiesieman;37088929]Okay, some reworks for pyro Phlo: +100% airblast cost. -10% damage. Fire damage fills "mmph" meter, when full inflict minicrits (no taunt needed) (basically, it's a soda popper). Maybe give it slower weapon switch too Manmelter: minicrits on burning targets (it relies on having a pyro on the enemy team, and that sucks.) Axtinguisher: -15 health on wearer Detonator: 20 base damage (is 30) crits on burning targets. (Initial hits will do less damage, crits go from 45ish to 60. makes it better for comboing, but not as good as the flare gun) Scorch shot: 15 base damage. Crits on burning targets. Instead of falling to the ground after hitting something, flare explodes right away (so the explosion doesn't do any damage anymore) maybe give it the same jump height as the detonator. maybe. but only if gets the extra self damage too Third Degree: -20% damage against players who aren't being healed. Neon Sign: -20% damage against non-wet (dry?) players (so it does full crit damage on wet players. still the most situational weapon in the game) Sharpened Volcano F: +25% afterburn damage (so you use it sort of like the axtinguisher as a last blow, but the killing blow isn't immediate. the pro vs the ax is that you wouldn't lose the -15 health)[/QUOTE] All of those are just so terrible. Phlog is a front line safety net for doing your job. Manmelter is so legit, all it really needs is a buff in firing speed. Nerfing the Axtinguisher wouldn't fix the instant death scenarios since it's instant death. Detonator is just so solid right now, seriously. Scorch shot crits on burning targets? And it'll jump like the detonator? Complete upgrade from flare gun AND detonator. Third degree is already situational and hard to use. I don't even like the sign. Sharpened volcano would still do way less damage than the flamethrower, which is why it sucks now.

[QUOTE=slapdown3;37089088]All of those are just so terrible. Phlog is a front line safety net for doing your job. Manmelter is so legit, all it really needs is a buff in firing speed. Nerfing the Axtinguisher wouldn't fix the instant death scenarios since it's instant death. Detonator is just so solid right now, seriously. Scorch shot crits on burning targets? And it'll jump like the detonator? Complete upgrade from flare gun AND detonator. Third degree is already situational and hard to use. I don't even like the sign. Sharpened volcano would still do way less damage than the flamethrower, which is why it sucks now.[/QUOTE I think I broke the quote but Im on a phone, so bear with me Phlog is indeed a safety net, and that's the problem. It's a stupid weapon that rewards stupid gameplay, mindlessly flaming things and relying on a damage-resistant taunt. With my suggestion it'll be like the other flamethrowers at heart. You keep the airblast but only get 5. The mmph minicrit bar activates by itself so youll have to think about upcoming engagements (and equipping a shotgun suddenly becomes viable). Slower weapon switch times to make it stand out as the non-comboing flamethrower. The concept of giving minicrits has already been shown to work with the soda popper, the popper's problem lies within how you get those minicrits plus the reload speed. Manmelter is crap. Having a crit flare as a backup for comboing is useless since hey, the flare gun does the exact same thing. It has 2 uses. 1 is harassing a sniper from afar with a crit flare. The other one is filling up one of the phlos weaknesses: extinguishing. Both require an enemy pyro. It sucks. Axtinguishers arent instant kills, that's bs. You have to get in close, ignite people, add in the weapon switch and melee swing delay. It"s still fucking fast but not instant. Giving less health to an ax pyro means he can quickly dispose of you, but he's more fragile as well. And remember they're pretty fragile as is Detonator is situational. Self damage is high, jumps aren't, and it's finishing potential is much much lower than the flare. The whole detonating aspect is situational as well. Hardly seems as solid as the flare gun. Since I think lots of people will have a problem with buffing the flare jump, I think a small buff in killing potential isn't that terrible but okay I dont mind the third degree in its current state, but some people have problems with direct upgrades. My downside was to harsh, agreed. Scorch shot is a terrible, terrible weapon. It's amazingly fun to use, but that doesn't save it. Right now it functions as a disorienting weapon purely. But disorienting is useless when you also have a secondary that straght up kills (flares, both shotguns) or provides some movement utility (detonator). You can long range spycheck with it. Ill give it that.

[QUOTE=Tiesieman;37089754][QUOTE=slapdown3;37089088]All of those are just so terrible. Phlog is a front line safety net for doing your job. Manmelter is so legit, all it really needs is a buff in firing speed. Nerfing the Axtinguisher wouldn't fix the instant death scenarios since it's instant death. Detonator is just so solid right now, seriously. Scorch shot crits on burning targets? And it'll jump like the detonator? Complete upgrade from flare gun AND detonator. Third degree is already situational and hard to use. I don't even like the sign. Sharpened volcano would still do way less damage than the flamethrower, which is why it sucks now.[/QUOTE I think I broke the quote but Im on a phone, so bear with me Phlog is indeed a safety net, and that's the problem. It's a stupid weapon that rewards stupid gameplay, mindlessly flaming things and relying on a damage-resistant taunt. With my suggestion it'll be like the other flamethrowers at heart. You keep the airblast but only get 5. The mmph minicrit bar activates by itself so youll have to think about upcoming engagements (and equipping a shotgun suddenly becomes viable). Slower weapon switch times to make it stand out as the non-comboing flamethrower. The concept of giving minicrits has already been shown to work with the soda popper, the popper's problem lies within how you get those minicrits plus the reload speed. Manmelter is crap. Having a crit flare as a backup for comboing is useless since hey, the flare gun does the exact same thing. It has 2 uses. 1 is harassing a sniper from afar with a crit flare. The other one is filling up one of the phlos weaknesses: extinguishing. Both require an enemy pyro. It sucks. Axtinguishers arent instant kills, that's bs. You have to get in close, ignite people, add in the weapon switch and melee swing delay. It"s still fucking fast but not instant. Giving less health to an ax pyro means he can quickly dispose of you, but he's more fragile as well. And remember they're pretty fragile as is Detonator is situational. Self damage is high, jumps aren't, and it's finishing potential is much much lower than the flare. The whole detonating aspect is situational as well. Hardly seems as solid as the flare gun. Since I think lots of people will have a problem with buffing the flare jump, I think a small buff in killing potential isn't that terrible but okay I dont mind the third degree in its current state, but some people have problems with direct upgrades. My downside was to harsh, agreed. Scorch shot is a terrible, terrible weapon. It's amazingly fun to use, but that doesn't save it. Right now it functions as a disorienting weapon purely. But disorienting is useless when you also have a secondary that straght up kills (flares, both shotguns) or provides some movement utility (detonator). You can long range spycheck with it. Ill give it that.[/QUOTE] If you left Pyros get at point blank range to you, it's your fault, Axetinguisher gets people off the M1 mindset. Mannmelter has good stats, how many servers do you join and you don't have someone playing Pyro? If anything, third Degree need the buff to be higher and get a slight nerf to balance it out. Phlog need to lose the crits and gain minicrits, because Pyros devastate everything after the taunt, auto activation of the crits is horrible, because the activation taunt is the warning to get out of there, and it slows down the pyro's M1 push. Scorch Shot should stun instead of knocking Back the enemy, give the Pyro the change to do what he does best, fight at close range. In my opinion, Detonator is fine, would like to have a higher jump, but it would be OP.

[QUOTE=Tiesieman;37089754][QUOTE=slapdown3;37089088]All of those are just so terrible. Phlog is a front line safety net for doing your job. Manmelter is so legit, all it really needs is a buff in firing speed. Nerfing the Axtinguisher wouldn't fix the instant death scenarios since it's instant death. Detonator is just so solid right now, seriously. Scorch shot crits on burning targets? And it'll jump like the detonator? Complete upgrade from flare gun AND detonator. Third degree is already situational and hard to use. I don't even like the sign. Sharpened volcano would still do way less damage than the flamethrower, which is why it sucks now.[/QUOTE] I think I broke the quote but Im on a phone, so bear with me Phlog is indeed a safety net, and that's the problem. It's a stupid weapon that rewards stupid gameplay, mindlessly flaming things and relying on a damage-resistant taunt. With my suggestion it'll be like the other flamethrowers at heart. You keep the airblast but only get 5. The mmph minicrit bar activates by itself so youll have to think about upcoming engagements (and equipping a shotgun suddenly becomes viable). Slower weapon switch times to make it stand out as the non-comboing flamethrower. The concept of giving minicrits has already been shown to work with the soda popper, the popper's problem lies within how you get those minicrits plus the reload speed. Manmelter is crap. Having a crit flare as a backup for comboing is useless since hey, the flare gun does the exact same thing. It has 2 uses. 1 is harassing a sniper from afar with a crit flare. The other one is filling up one of the phlos weaknesses: extinguishing. Both require an enemy pyro. It sucks. Axtinguishers arent instant kills, that's bs. You have to get in close, ignite people, add in the weapon switch and melee swing delay. It"s still fucking fast but not instant. Giving less health to an ax pyro means he can quickly dispose of you, but he's more fragile as well. And remember they're pretty fragile as is Detonator is situational. Self damage is high, jumps aren't, and it's finishing potential is much much lower than the flare. The whole detonating aspect is situational as well. Hardly seems as solid as the flare gun. Since I think lots of people will have a problem with buffing the flare jump, I think a small buff in killing potential isn't that terrible but okay I dont mind the third degree in its current state, but some people have problems with direct upgrades. My downside was to harsh, agreed. Scorch shot is a terrible, terrible weapon. It's amazingly fun to use, but that doesn't save it. Right now it functions as a disorienting weapon purely. But disorienting is useless when you also have a secondary that straght up kills (flares, both shotguns) or provides some movement utility (detonator). You can long range spycheck with it. Ill give it that.[/QUOTE] What balances out the phlogistinator is its lack of airblast, making the pyro very vulnerable to explosive projectile weapons, it is a W+m1 weapon, it is meant for stupid tactics, it rewards stupid tactics. It's very easy to counter stupid tactics, therefore balanced in a backwards upside-down way. And the soda popper is just a terrible, terrible weapon. Manmelter is actually very useful as you can store a crit and fling it at any time regardless if your target is on fire. And the Axtinguisher can kill 7/9 classes in one hit, not counting other pyros. Detonator is probably the pyros most useful secondary, granting mobility, range, and making it easy to ignite gopher hole snipers. I don't exactly care much for the Scorch shot and have used it very little so I can't criticize it.