Weapon Balance Thread:Now with 50% Less Dumb Ratings - Games

I like to think of the difference between fighting an airblast pyro and a Phlog pyro as the difference between PvP combat in an MMORPG and fighting a PvE miniboss. The PvE guy's going to hit a lot harder, but he's predictable and doesn't really have any tricks he can use to increase his survivability or disrupt your team; as long as you keep in mind what you're fighting and what the appropriate response is (i.e. running away when you see him taunting), there's very little risk of death. PvP opponents have fancy skills to disorient and stun you, and they have a lot of maneuvers beyond "run at you and do damage," but they're not going to take you down quite as fast as an enraged boss. I really like the Pomson's [i]role[/i] - it's essentially area denial for areas that a Sentry can't cover, and in a way that encourages the engie to roam away from his nest, making it more likely that the enemy team will kill him (making the ensuing counterattack on his sentry much more likely to be successful). Nerf idea: Remove the drain from the Pomson's primary fire, and give it to an alt-fire option which consumes 2 ammo and drains like the original. Still encourages Medics to take cover when they hear a Pomson engie around, still encourages the Pomson engie to take suicidal risks, still gives the Engie a versatile-yet-low-damage support weapon, doesn't take away 40% uber just because you wandered down the wrong hallway.

I almost always use the manmelter when I'm using the phlog. Even though the shotgun is a lot better for me, I feel terrible walking past burning player and I can't help them.

This is my personal opinion of course, but the airblast is part of being a pyro. Sure, a flamethrower without the airblast does mean a different playstyle but it doesn't really extend further than running into people and flaming them. I never said it was unbalanced, but like another guy said in this thread, it's just a dumb weapon and whadda you mean with the soda popper being terrible? it being op, or just bad? The manmelters crit storing is pretty useless, because 1: you have a freaking flamethrower, you ignite things all the time! 2 shoot a flare, and hey, target is ignited. You now have a 10 second window for a crit. You'd need to have at least 2 stored crits to have a faster kill-time than a regular flare gun. Maybe a minicrit is too much for it but it needs something. Right now the only reason it excists is because it synerges with the phlo, but seeing as how the phlo is the weapon it is no decent pyro will use it. I don't think the detonator is a bad weapon btw. I just think it's nowhere near as good as the flare gun (practically 1 hit killing scouts? hell yeah) or the shotgun. I can see it being more usefull on some maps So yeah. Maybe the extra self-damage needs to go. [QUOTE=Rammlied;37091000]I almost always use the manmelter when I'm using the phlog. Even though the shotgun is a lot better for me, I feel terrible walking past burning player and I can't help them.[/QUOTE] Yeah, exactly. If the phlo didn't excist, the manmelter wouldn't serve a purpose I'm only hating on it since I don't like the phlo :P

[QUOTE=Tiesieman;37091056]This is my personal opinion of course, but the airblast is part of being a pyro. Sure, a flamethrower without the airblast does mean a different playstyle but it doesn't really extend further than running into people and flaming them. I never said it was unbalanced, but like another guy said in this thread, it's just a dumb weapon and whadda you mean with the soda popper being terrible? it being op, or just bad? The manmelters crit storing is pretty useless, because 1: you have a freaking flamethrower, you ignite things all the time! 2 shoot a flare, and hey, target is ignited. You now have a 10 second window for a crit. You'd need to have at least 2 stored crits to have a faster kill-time than a regular flare gun. Maybe a minicrit is too much for it but it needs something. Right now the only reason it excists is because it synerges with the phlo, but seeing as how the phlo is the weapon it is no decent pyro will use it. I don't think the detonator is a bad weapon btw. I just think it's nowhere near as good as the flare gun (practically 1 hit killing scouts? hell yeah) or the shotgun. I can see it being more usefull on some maps So yeah. Maybe the extra self-damage needs to go.[/QUOTE] The soda popper rewards the scout for MOVING, something the class was designed to do efficiently, Imagine if they gave the heavy a weapon that rewards him with minicrits for being a fat sack of lard, or if they gave the engineer a wrench that gives him minicrits for constructing. It's just a bad idea.

ahem "The concept of giving minicrits has already been shown to work with the soda popper, the popper's problem lies within how you get those minicrits plus the reload speed." I agree running is a stupid way of granting minicrits. But minicrits in general, it could work. I mean there's an engi shotgun that gives full crits if your sentry makes kills. Never hear any problems with that

[QUOTE=Tiesieman;37088929]Neon Sign: -20% damage against non-wet (dry?) players (so it does full crit damage on wet players. still the most situational weapon in the game)[/QUOTE] -20% swing speed like the update page adversited it would have been good enough. It should definitely do full crit damage on wet players.

[QUOTE=Tiesieman;37091207]ahem "The concept of giving minicrits has already been shown to work with the soda popper, the popper's problem lies within how you get those minicrits plus the reload speed." I agree running is a stupid way of granting minicrits. But minicrits in general, it could work. I mean there's an engi shotgun that gives full crits if your sentry makes kills. Never hear any problems with that[/QUOTE] You never hear any problems because you actually have to get kills with your sentry gun, just like how you have to get kills with the phlogistinator.

[QUOTE=slapdown3;37091238]You never hear any problems because you actually have to get kills with your sentry gun, just like how you have to get kills with the phlogistinator.[/QUOTE] So why are we arguing again I want the mmph to fill up on fire damage

[QUOTE=Tiesieman;37091310]So why are we arguing again I want the mmph to fill up on fire damage[/QUOTE] I can't remember. Atleast the phlogistinators afterburn doesn't crit when he mmmphs.

[QUOTE=slapdown3;37091323]I can't remember. Atleast the phlogistinators afterburn doesn't crit when he mmmphs.[/QUOTE] the best thing about the phlo is how fire thats all already in the air turn into crits too when you taunt. that's sorta like afterburn

[QUOTE=Tiesieman;37091344]the best thing about the phlo is how fire thats all already in the air turn into crits too when you taunt. that's sorta like afterburn[/QUOTE] :v: Stop that. the weapon is pretty hard to use if you run into certain classes

[QUOTE=Tiesieman;37089754] Phlog is indeed a safety net, and that's the problem. It's a stupid weapon that rewards stupid gameplay, mindlessly flaming things and relying on a damage-resistant taunt.[/quote] Pyro IS supposed to ignite every target he/she/it sees. To make em easier to deal with thanks to the afterburn. The MMPH effect can be pretty useful in a suprise attack at which any class except those who are faster than Pyro will be killed quickly. In Soldier or Demoman case ya don't even have to use a airblast because they are already dead due to the Phlog's crits (in a suprise attack of course). [QUOTE=Tiesieman;37089754] Manmelter is crap. Having a crit flare as a backup for comboing is useless since hey, the flare gun does the exact same thing. It has 2 uses. 1 is harassing a sniper from afar with a crit flare. The other one is filling up one of the phlos weaknesses: extinguishing. Both require an enemy pyro. It sucks.[/quote] Cow Mangler's charged attack also ignites on hit and Manmelter can be used with Backburner to save the ammo. The difference between Flare Gun and Manmelter is that Manmelter has a infinite ammo. [QUOTE=Tiesieman;37089754] Axtinguishers arent instant kills, that's bs. You have to get in close, ignite people, add in the weapon switch and melee swing delay. It"s still fucking fast but not instant. Giving less health to an ax pyro means he can quickly dispose of you, but he's more fragile as well. And remember they're pretty fragile as is.[/quote] Giving Pyro a less health by equipping Axtinguisher doesn't change a thing. [QUOTE=Tiesieman;37089754] Detonator is situational. Self damage is high, jumps aren't, and it's finishing potential is much much lower than the flare. The whole detonating aspect is situational as well. Hardly seems as solid as the flare gun. Since I think lots of people will have a problem with buffing the flare jump, I think a small buff in killing potential isn't that terrible but okay [/quote] Detonator lets you ignite multiple targets with one projectile and detonation. Of course it lets you get to the unreachable platform to make a unexpected ambush with any flamethrower. [QUOTE=Tiesieman;37089754] Scorch shot is a terrible, terrible weapon. It's amazingly fun to use, but that doesn't save it. Right now it functions as a disorienting weapon purely. But disorienting is useless when you also have a secondary that straght up kills (flares, both shotguns) or provides some movement utility (detonator). You can long range spycheck with it. Ill give it that.[/QUOTE] Ya can't imagine how helpful can it be in case when someone fights. If that happens near the pit you can just fire up and the enemy will fall or better yet screw up the enemy's aim and be ignited when he fights against your teammate. Of course it is so helpful to ignite a group of enemies with one flare to help the lvl 3 sentry to deal with em faster and later keep an eye on Spies at the same time with flamethrower.

I might as well leave this here. [QUOTE=AbeX300;37090747]I say the Neon Annihilator needs to be buffed as well. You see, the problem of the weapon is that it's [b]too[/b] situational, with only three scenarios where an enemy can be wet: An enemy is: 1) Submerged in water (also applies when coming out of water). 2) Covered in Jarate. 3) Covered in Mad Milk. Scenario #1 doesn't apply on all maps, and even then, I don't think deep water is used much at all. Scenario #2 is pointless, considering that any Flamethrower will do the job better than the Neon Annihilator (considering the Flamethrower mini-crits and the Neon Annihilator crits, that's saying something). Scenario #3, this is probably the only case where it [b]could[/b] be useful, but it really depends: Would you want small, constant healing (with Flamethrower), or a huge, burst heal (with Neon Annihilator). So one rare (or very rare) scenario, one scenario that is completely unnecessary since you have the Flamethrower, and one scenario that may or may not be useful. [url=http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Neon_Annihilator#Damage_and_function_times]Statistics[/url] So I'd like to make a proposal: As opposed to doing critical damage on wet players, how about either: 1) A simple melee range increase. Maybe either +30% or +50% melee range? or 2) An electric-charge system. You get a "Charge" HUD when simply equipping it. When you hit an enemy, it charges up, and when it gets to full, you deal critical damage, and resets the charge. It requires a minimum of two hits (+50% charge per hit) to get it fully charged (so the combo works similar to the Gunslinger). However, when you don't hit an enemy for the last 1.5 seconds, the Charge starts draining (at -10% charge per second). But if this is the case, either make the damage penalty -25%, or replace the damage penalty with 25% slower firing speed. My suggestions are probably dumb, but I'd rather have a better upside than just... "Crits vs. wet players".[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=KenjiKusanagi;37091577]Lodsagoodarguments[/QUOTE] Why am I so bad at typing out my thoughts? You do it perfectly. This is exactly what I wanted to say.

The fact that you HAVE to run away when a pyro suddenly starts to MMPH is just stupid. There should be a way to kill him while he is taunting and the only way now is a taunt kill, but most are not fast enough. You don't just flame the entire team in the face and taunt with the MMPH in front of everyone. It just doesn't feel right. I think the weapon needs a total rework

[QUOTE=sergiuung;37092333]The fact that you HAVE to run away when a pyro suddenly starts to MMPH is just stupid. There should be a way to kill him while he is taunting and the only way now is a taunt kill, but most are not fast enough. You don't just flame the entire team in the face and taunt with the MMPH in front of everyone. It just doesn't feel right. I think the weapon needs a total rework[/QUOTE] Don't backstabs work normally on Pyro starting the MMMPH?

[QUOTE=sergiuung;37092333]The fact that you HAVE to run away when a pyro suddenly starts to MMPH is just stupid. There should be a way to kill him while he is taunting and the only way now is a taunt kill, but most are not fast enough. You don't just flame the entire team in the face and taunt with the MMPH in front of everyone. It just doesn't feel right. I think the weapon needs a total rework[/QUOTE] Gee, I wish I could do that. If I taunt in front of everyone, either a heavy guns me down or a spy backstabs me.

[QUOTE=Erfly;37092379]Gee, I wish I could do that. If I taunt in front of everyone, either a heavy guns me down or a spy backstabs me.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure how I keep seeing this then. I guess playing on valve servers isn't the best option then.

[QUOTE=Erfly;37092379]Gee, I wish I could do that. If I taunt in front of everyone, either a heavy guns me down or a spy backstabs me.[/QUOTE] God damn, that's so subtle I almost missed it.

true but I don't think anyone would use it if it had a downside, let's fix the soldier pickaxes first

The soldier pickaxes are fine. I've seen some stupid people die because they refuse to put their axes away.

[QUOTE=LaughingStock;37092637]The soldier pickaxes are fine. I've seen some stupid people die because they refuse to put their axes away.[/QUOTE] The Equalizer, it [b]probably[/b] is fine. The Escape Plan is not, and it's EVER so close to be a straight upgrade, had there not been the downside that's so weak. The Escape Plan does the same damage as the Shovel, but the benefit? When it's active, you move faster the less health you have, unlike the Shovel (and unlike the Equalizer that starts out weak, you get no move speed penalty at the start). The penalty? You can't be healed by Medics with it out, but [b]why[/b] would you have a melee weapon out when a Medic is healing you?

[QUOTE=KenjiKusanagi;37091577]Pyro IS supposed to ignite every target he/she/it sees. To make em easier to deal with thanks to the afterburn. The MMPH effect can be pretty useful in a suprise attack at which any class except those who are faster than Pyro will be killed quickly. In Soldier or Demoman case ya don't even have to use a airblast because they are already dead due to the Phlog's crits (in a suprise attack of course).[/QUOTE] Agreed, but honestly I think you could form the phlo into a weapon that's more fun for both sides. Right now, the phlo is a lot like the Heavy in that it doesn't require much thought and there's a low skill ceiling, and it's pretty lame dieing to a phlo pyro as a soldier or demo, regardless if it's op or up. You gotta agree with that. [QUOTE]Cow Mangler's charged attack also ignites on hit and Manmelter can be used with Backburner to save the ammo. The difference between Flare Gun and Manmelter is that Manmelter has a infinite ammo.[/QUOTE] Relying on a cow manglers charged attack might even be more situational than relying on hitting wet players with the neon light thingy. Infinite ammo is a questionable benefit, since you start out with a good amount of flares Like I said, there's much point in the manmelter unless you use the phlo. and I wouldn't call that synergy since the manmelter needs the phlo to be viable, but it's not the other way around (the regular flare or even the scorch work for it) [QUOTE]Giving Pyro a less health by equipping Axtinguisher doesn't change a thing.[/QUOTE] Sure it does, it makes them more fragile I don't think the axtinguisher is that much of a problem like you guys seem to do, the flare gun or shotgun/reserve shooter are just as capable as comboing/finishing weapons and those don't require you to be in melee range. . The demoman is supposed to be weak up close, no problem there. The heavy should be able to tear you up long before you get into melee range. A soldier has the option of rocket jumping out of range and rockets do lotsa damage up close. All other classes are just as easily killed by a flamethrower puff and a flare. The soldier is the class I target most of the times when axtinguishing. Giving pyros slightly less health might slightly turn things into the soldiers favour [QUOTE]Detonator lets you ignite multiple targets with one projectile and detonation. Of course it lets you get to the unreachable platform to make a unexpected ambush with any flamethrower.[/QUOTE] Igniting 2 players with 1 flare (let's be honest, 2 is the most you'll ignite with the radius) is hardly a benefit worth mentioning, with how many counters there are to afterburn. Let's be honest, would you choose the detonator over the flare gun for that?The only real strength the detonator has is flare jumping and that strength is limited to what map you're playing on A very tiny buff to make it viable in more scenarios wouldn't hurt. Very tiny. It's nearly fine! [QUOTE]Ya can't imagine how helpful can it be in case when someone fights. If that happens near the pit you can just fire up and the enemy will fall or better yet screw up the enemy's aim and be ignited when he fights against your teammate. Of course it is so helpful to ignite a group of enemies with one flare to help the lvl 3 sentry to deal with em faster and later keep an eye on Spies at the same time with flamethrower.[/QUOTE] Relying on long range knockback to knock people of ledges is silly. Not only is it usefull in like 2 instances (hightower and doomsday), you're shooting a flare! it's slow and predictable so you can evade it easily. At close range, the airblast is so much better at the same thing. Knockback on the scorch is a gimmick. The small splash is kinda nifty. But even if you're gonne play a pyro style that stays close to sentry nests, you could argue that even then there are better options. spy needs to get close to sentry nests. You stay close to them. Meaning he's in flamethrower range. You ignite him. If you had a flare gun, you'd finish him off immediately. If you had a scorch shot, you'd knock him back. He's being afterburned, but might be able to escape it And don't forget that lotsa spies run with the spycicle nowadays. So a shotgun as a backup isn't a bad idea as well. The scorch is build for utility but those utilities all suck. Knockback is extremely situational. its flare jumps suck even more than the detonators. Afterburn is easy to counter. The weapon as a whole is useless, imo

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;37085028]It's kinda hard to deem a weapon like the Phlogistinator as Balanced, or UP or even OP. It's stats are odd and I would call it a dumb weapon really.[/QUOTE] I must say though, it hasearned my respect. I was the lone Medic defending Gravelpit and the most competant guy on my team was a Phlog Pyro (who was another regular). The guy was a total bro, all he needed was a Homewrecker and he'd be set. I'm on fire? Manmelter'd. He pops MMMPH? I pop uber. We became an unstoppable force of pure rape and bromanship (every Uber was follwed by a "Good shooting!", which was followed by a "Mmphks!"). [sp]The enemy still won, but we gave em hell[/sp] The Phlog isn't JUST for people who are terrible at Pyro. If you know how to out-maneuver fleeing enemies and pick your targets wisely, it becomes a weapon of mass disintegration.

[QUOTE=Tiesieman;37092811]Agreed, but honestly I think you could form the phlo into a weapon that's more fun for both sides. Right now, the phlo is a lot like the Heavy in that it doesn't require much thought and there's a low skill ceiling, and it's pretty lame dieing to a phlo pyro as a soldier or demo, regardless if it's op or up. You gotta agree with that.[/quote] It wouldn't be lame for me because if Phlog Pyro had his MMPH activated before and attacks me from behind i just say that he did a pretty good job in there. If the same situation happens from the front but i didn't noticed him like behind a wall or something. I still say that is a pretty good job. But if i saw him and got on his range somehow and get killed. I find a different way to deal with it (Learning from mistakes in other words). [QUOTE=Tiesieman;37092811] Relying on a cow manglers charged attack might even be more situational than relying on hitting wet players with the neon light thingy. Infinite ammo is a questionable benefit, since you start out with a good amount of flares Like I said, there's much point in the manmelter unless you use the phlo. and I wouldn't call that synergy since the manmelter needs the phlo to be viable, but it's not the other way around (the regular flare or even the scorch work for it)[/quote] Yes, Manmelter is required for Phlog. But if you want to conserve your ammo for Backburner for ambushes and reflect projectiles or for the Offensive Engineer then ya can just use it. [QUOTE=Tiesieman;37092811] Sure it does, it makes them more fragile I don't think the axtinguisher is that much of a problem like you guys seem to do, the flare gun or shotgun/reserve shooter are just as capable as comboing/finishing weapons and those don't require you to be in melee range. . The demoman is supposed to be weak up close, no problem there. The heavy should be able to tear you up long before you get into melee range. A soldier has the option of rocket jumping out of range and rockets do lotsa damage up close. [/quote] If i meet a Flamethrower + Axtinguisher Pyro then it is fine for the stats. But in case of Degreaser + Axtinguisher there is a problem. Try yourself puffing a small flame from Degreaser, airblast and axtinguish and you will see that Pyro can kill you in a second without giving you a chance to counterattack. [QUOTE=Tiesieman;37092811] All other classes are just as easily killed by a flamethrower puff and a flare. The soldier is the class I target most of the times when axtinguishing. Giving pyros slightly less health might slightly turn things into the soldiers favour[/quote] Shotgun can kill a Pyro with 2 shots (point blank damage deals 86-90 damage) if Pyro tries to axtinguish the Soldier before starting to puff and sting.In Demoman's case. If a demoman is smart he can make a sticky trap against em or better yet in a open area use a Grenade launcher against a Pyro to do a grenade jump if the timing is good.(and if the Demoman is smart). That's what i've meant by "Giving Pyro a less health by equipping Axtinguisher doesn't change a thing."...Except the Degreaser + Axtinguisher. [sp]Though Soldier might have a chance with that combo.[/sp] [QUOTE=Tiesieman;37092811] Igniting 2 players with 1 flare (let's be honest, 2 is the most you'll ignite with the radius) is hardly a benefit worth mentioning, with how many counters there are to afterburn. Let's be honest, would you choose the detonator over the flare gun for that?The only real strength the detonator has is flare jumping and that strength is limited to what map you're playing on A very tiny buff to make it viable in more scenarios wouldn't hurt. Very tiny. It's nearly fine![/quote] Detonator doesn't have a ignition limit on detonation. It can ignite enemies who are near the explosion range. You can just fire a Detonator and detonate at the moment when it is over the enemies heads. Also the minicrit from it can be used to make them die quickly from afterburn. [QUOTE=Tiesieman;37092811] Relying on long range knockback to knock people of ledges is silly. Not only is it usefull in like 2 instances (hightower and doomsday), you're shooting a flare! it's slow and predictable so you can evade it easily. At close range, the airblast is so much better at the same thing. Knockback on the scorch is a gimmick. [/quote] Rockets from any rocket launcher except Direct Hit or Liberty Launcher are slower than the flare. In fact it is at the same speed as the LL (Based on my observation) [QUOTE=Tiesieman;37092811] The small splash is kinda nifty. But even if you're gonne play a pyro style that stays close to sentry nests, you could argue that even then there are better options. spy needs to get close to sentry nests. You stay close to them. Meaning he's in flamethrower range. You ignite him. If you had a flare gun, you'd finish him off immediately. If you had a scorch shot, you'd knock him back. He's being afterburned, but might be able to escape it And don't forget that lotsa spies run with the spycicle nowadays. So a shotgun as a backup isn't a bad idea as well. [/quote] You see i have a habit to patrol my team's area but i stay near the engie's nest or better yet. Patrol each engie nest if we have more than 1 Engineer in our team. If a spot a Spy-Cicle Spy who just sapped the nest and kill a Engie i fire a flare in a position that knock him off or explodes so a Spy will be ignited either way and will be forced to use Spy-Cicle to put the fire down to make him useless for 15 seconds, then i unsap the sentry and the dispenser with a hope that he will try to shoot me down and get killed by a Sentry i have just unsapped. If he faked his death at that point...It doesn't matter because i've destroyed his plan, he lost a Spy-Cicle that is only thing he can use to backstab and I proceed to defend the nest till the Engineer comes. Sure a Spy can be still alive (or he gets buttraped from my teammates) but i've saved the Engie's stuff. You see in my case. I think about finding a way that can be helpful for my team and make the enemy's team member useless either by killing or not. It is called Team Fortress 2 for a reason you know.

Dalokohs Bar:-stats+ give it a defensive bonus, like the battillions backup or something. Also make it throwable, as said Axetinguisher: Make the 50% damage penalty also apply on burning targets. It would do 97 crit damage if the damage penalty stayed le that. Spy-cicle: Make backstab victims shatter one or two seconds after the stab, loud as fuck of course Thats all I have to contribute, just had those ideas randomly pop up in my mind.

[QUOTE=NoNameForEvil;37092511]it is a straight upgrade to the bonesaw, it needs a downside and before you say "oh but you're vulnerable during the taunt!!!" that's not a downside, it's still a straight upgrade let me put it this way if you taunt with the regular bonesaw, it has no effect if you want with the amputator, it heals people that makes it a straight upgrade[/QUOTE] why do you think a straight upgrade is a bad thing? you don't have to balance everything for the sole reason that it is an upgrade? and before you say "its game breaking" and "completely unfair", think about the real effects it has on the game, then get back to me when you realize that there are other things to balance first, if at all, amputator would be one of the last. [editline]5th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=assistbyheal;37094166]Dalokohs Bar:-stats+ give it a defensive bonus, like the battillions backup or something. Also make it throwable, as said Axetinguisher: Make the 50% damage penalty also apply on burning targets. It would do 97 crit damage if the damage penalty stayed le that. Spy-cicle: Make backstab victims shatter one or two seconds after the stab. Thats all I have to contribute, just had those ideas randomly pop up in my mind.[/QUOTE] then just make it do mini crits when people are on fire really people, if you try to get valve to balance a weapon, it usually always ends up to the point where the downside is so bad that it becomes impractical - then using the stock is an option, but then again they're still utter shit (take medics stock bonesaw for example) compared to other clearly imbalanced weapons there is a difference between unbalanced and justified upgrade, please think about it before being naive

Axtinguisher: Deals minicrits on burning targets Can we all agree on this?

[QUOTE=Nitro836;37094935]Axtinguisher: Deals minicrits on burning targets Can we all agree on this?[/QUOTE] personally I wouldn't use it, and for my tastes - nearly nobody would use it if that happend you would deal twice as much damage by continuing to spray the enemy with flames than take out your axe to attempt to mini crit them thus, the weapon would become impractical - the crits are fine, the real weapon you need to balance is the degreaser, after all, you see the true power of the axtinguisher when they use it with a DEGREASER, not any other flamethrower the weapon switch time should be slightly lowered, as much as it takes to make sure the average person has at least 0.8-1 seconds to react, instead of a split second

[QUOTE=Nitro836;37094935]Axtinguisher: Deals minicrits on burning targets Can we all agree on this?[/QUOTE] No. I like the "-X% switch speed" idea.