Weapon Balance Thread:Now with 50% Less Dumb Ratings - Games

[QUOTE=AbeX300;37092686]The Equalizer, it [b]probably[/b] is fine. The Escape Plan is not, and it's EVER so close to be a straight upgrade, had there not been the downside that's so weak. The Escape Plan does the same damage as the Shovel, but the benefit? When it's active, you move faster the less health you have, unlike the Shovel (and unlike the Equalizer that starts out weak, you get no move speed penalty at the start). The penalty? You can't be healed by Medics with it out, but [b]why[/b] would you have a melee weapon out when a Medic is healing you?[/QUOTE] I never understood why Valve decided to split the Equalizer. It was perfectly fine as it was. I never found it overpowered and the only times I've died from it were from critical hits. It's a high risk high reward weapon and it wasn't even that overpowered. I've ditched it ages ago for the Disciplinary Action, which is technically "more overpowered" because of its obscene range. Not that I want it nerfed either.

[QUOTE=Insane516;37094957]personally I wouldn't use it, and for my tastes - nearly nobody would use it if that happend you would deal twice as much damage by continuing to spray the enemy with flames than take out your axe to attempt to mini crit them thus, the weapon would become impractical - the crits are fine, the real weapon you need to balance is the degreaser, after all, you see the true power of the axtinguisher when they use it with a DEGREASER, not any other flamethrower the weapon switch time should be slightly lowered, as much as it takes to make sure the average person has at least 0.8-1 seconds to react, instead of a split second[/QUOTE] Doesn't need to be minicrits, just apply the damage penalty to burning targets and lower it a little. Would do more damage than a flamethrower and give he victim time to react. Yes I am a fan of the lower damage idea, since I don't see why you would make the axetinguisher "useless" (correct me if im wrong) for other flamethrowers. Another idea i picked up somewhere was to lower the critical chance to like 50%.

[QUOTE=assistbyheal;37095520]Doesn't need to be minicrits, just apply the damage penalty to burning targets and lower it a little. Would do more damage than a flamethrower and give he victim time to react. Yes I am a fan of the lower damage idea, since I don't see why you would make the axetinguisher "useless" (correct me if im wrong) for other flamethrowers. Another idea i picked up somewhere was to lower the critical chance to like 50%.[/QUOTE] Having something be chance like that is a terrible idea.

Move the bullet weakness to the Degreaser from the Gas Jockey set. The set remains as balanced as always, while quick Axtinguishing gets a tradeoff of dying faster to bullet-based classes. If you want lightning switches, you need to be on the defensive; if you want to last longer, you need to time your switches (like every single class). I can see it working. The Escape Plan needs to have a 50% damage penalty, so it always deals the same damage a full health equalizer did. Otherwise, you are hopping around dealing 195 damage like there's no tomorrow.

[QUOTE=Insane516;37094957] thus, the weapon would become impractical - the crits are fine, the real weapon you need to balance is the degreaser, after all, you see the true power of the axtinguisher when they use it with a DEGREASER, not any other flamethrower [/QUOTE] holy shit no you don't have to nerf the degreaser to nerf the axtinguisher end of story

[QUOTE=Rammlied;37098922]holy shit no you don't have to nerf the degreaser to nerf the axtinguisher end of story[/QUOTE] The Axtinguisher wasn't a glaring issue as an instakill until the Degreaser was added. With non-Degreaser switch times, Axtinguishing someone was on par with a Headshot or Backstab. It was an enormous risk because that was half a second of time where the enemy can eliminate the Pyro or push him out of melee range (which adds another 0.8 seconds until the Pyro can try to axtinguish again) AND gives the victim a huge advantage in the fight. You act like you've never played against a Pyro pre-Manniversary or every single Pyro you've fought used the Degreaser+Axtinguisher combo like they were the stock weapons.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;37099056]The Axtinguisher wasn't a glaring issue as an instakill until the Degreaser was added. With non-Degreaser switch times, Axtinguishing someone was on par with a Headshot or Backstab. It was an enormous risk because that was half a second of time where the enemy can eliminate the Pyro or push him out of melee range (which adds another 0.8 seconds until the Pyro can try to axtinguish again) AND gives the victim a huge advantage in the fight. You act like you've never played against a Pyro pre-Manniversary or every single Pyro you've fought used the Degreaser+Axtinguisher combo like they were the stock weapons.[/QUOTE] The degreaser is fine on it's own, though. Don't punish the degreaser because of the axtinguisher. You can nerf the axtinguisher without nerfing the degreaser.

[QUOTE=Rammlied;37099289]The degreaser is fine on it's own, though. Don't punish the degreaser because of the axtinguisher. You can nerf the axtinguisher without nerfing the degreaser.[/QUOTE] Degreaser's only downside is ridiculous because of how useless afterburn is nowadays, so it does deserve to be nerfed like that. Faster weapon switch speed for teeny bit less damage isn't the brightest idea if you ask me.

[QUOTE=OffTheRoad;37099314]Degreaser's only downside is ridiculous because of how useless afterburn is nowadays, so it does deserve to be nerfed like that. Faster weapon switch speed for teeny bit less damage isn't the brightest idea if you ask me.[/QUOTE] The reduced damage does make a huge difference.

[QUOTE=OffTheRoad;37099314]Degreaser's only downside is ridiculous because of how useless afterburn is nowadays, so it does deserve to be nerfed like that. Faster weapon switch speed for teeny bit less damage isn't the brightest idea if you ask me.[/QUOTE] It does have a damage penalty on it nowadays. 10% of not a lot doesn't make a huge difference. But hey, it's a downside.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;37099372]It does have a damage penalty on it nowadays. 10% of not a lot doesn't make a huge difference. But hey, it's a downside.[/QUOTE] Oh right, forgot about the damage reduction. @ Rammlied: I was talking about afterburn, not the direct damage.

[QUOTE=Rammlied;37099370]The reduced damage does make a huge difference.[/QUOTE] The extra damage potential you gain from the faster switch speed so infinitely surpasses the flame damage you lose.

I would like it if they made the loch's grenades be slightly weaker, and actually explode on impact and not disappear so you could grenade jump. It would be great for the chargin targe demos.

[QUOTE=Rageguy;37099570]I would like it if they made the loch's grenades be slightly weaker, and actually explode on impact and not disappear so you could grenade jump. It would be great for the chargin targe demos.[/QUOTE] Sooo...a rocketlauncher?

[img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/24/Conniver's_Kunai.png/250px-Conniver's_Kunai.png[/img] This weapon is completely useless right now. So, it gives Spy a little bit more health? Great, except it's an overheal, so it wears off. Spy doesn't even need extra health. All this does is make initial kills much harder. Congrats, Soldiers can now kill you without even realizing in half a shot. 60 health is so crazy fucking low. Most crit shots will kill you instantly. This knife's only purpose is if you want to die more.

[QUOTE=Rageguy;37099570]I would like it if they made the loch's grenades be slightly weaker, and actually explode on impact and not disappear so you could grenade jump. It would be great for the chargin targe demos.[/QUOTE] A grenade launcher with an arc would be a huge no-no. might as well give him a hitscan secondary in that case.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;37099576]Sooo...a rocketlauncher?[/QUOTE] Sort of. Only with grenades

[QUOTE=Sardonus;37099589][img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/24/Conniver's_Kunai.png/250px-Conniver's_Kunai.png[/img] This weapon is completely useless right now. So, it gives Spy a little bit more health? Great, except it's an overheal, so it wears off. Spy doesn't even need extra health. All this does is make initial kills much harder. Congrats, Soldiers can now kill you without even realizing in half a shot. 60 health is so crazy fucking low. Most crit shots will kill you instantly. This knife's only purpose is if you want to die more.[/QUOTE] You won't need medics as long as you are good at stabbing. It's a high-risk weapon.

in all honesty the only knife that can even consider being on par with the Stock one is the Eternal Reward, and even then, quickdisguising is so easy that there's no need [editline]6th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=LaughingStock;37099609]You won't need medics as long as you are good at stabbing. It's a high-risk weapon.[/QUOTE] but a spy shouldn't need to have tons of health to get in fights and even if, he's still weak. The max is 185, if I am correct. Soldiers can still blast you in 2 hits, Pyro will wreck your shit, and generally if a spy is uncovered he's about to get destroyed by the sentrynest or enemy defense.

[QUOTE=Sardonus;37099611]in all honesty the only knife that can even consider being on par with the Stock one is the Eternal Reward, and even then, quickdisguising is so easy that there's no need[/QUOTE] You're not considering the stats without actual numbers. The silent kill is important.

[QUOTE=LaughingStock;37099622]You're not considering the stats without actual numbers. The silent kill is important.[/QUOTE] this actually is true. If I am correct, the Eternal Reward also doesn't display killfeeds, right? Whenever I look into the corner and see about 5 or so backstabs in a row I always get this big "oh shit" feeling.

[QUOTE=Sardonus;37099628]this actually is true. If I am correct, the Eternal Reward also doesn't display killfeeds, right? Whenever I look into the corner and see about 5 or so backstabs in a row I always get this big "oh shit" feeling.[/QUOTE] A team with any sort of comms will completely neutralize that. The actual important thing is that is has SILENCE of these kills. If you're on a payload cart and you hear a critical death scream, most everyone who is not oblivious will check behind them for a Spy going to town. With YER, there is no critical scream, there's not even a grunt of pain. The victim is dead and their corpse vanishes, even if a team has comms, comms cannot quickly tell people where that Spy is in the same time it takes to react to a critical scream from a teammate. The Spy-cicle has this upside as well, but leaves frozen corpses instead of removing them, alerting future passers through the area that a spy is around instead of keeping that fact concealed.

[QUOTE=Sardonus;37099589][img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/24/Conniver's_Kunai.png/250px-Conniver's_Kunai.png[/img] This weapon is completely useless right now. So, it gives Spy a little bit more health? Great, except it's an overheal, so it wears off. Spy doesn't even need extra health. All this does is make initial kills much harder. Congrats, Soldiers can now kill you without even realizing in half a shot. 60 health is so crazy fucking low. Most crit shots will kill you instantly. This knife's only purpose is if you want to die more.[/QUOTE] I don't care about the risk, but there's no reward. You get the overheal, now what. It just decays overtime and nearly never actually helps you. It's even worse, as when pyro sets you on fire you can't pick up medkits unless you're under 60hp, so you have to stab somebody to put yourself out. Which is hard when you're running around, on fire, and there's a jizzing pyro trying to burn your ass - I mean, just how oblivious do they have to be to ignore such a noisy and flashy cultural event?

[QUOTE=Drury;37103335]I don't care about the risk, but there's no reward. You get the overheal, now what. It just decays overtime and nearly never actually helps you. It's even worse, as when pyro sets you on fire you can't pick up medkits unless you're under 60hp, so you have to stab somebody to put yourself out. Which is hard when you're running around, on fire, and there's a jizzing pyro trying to burn your ass - I mean, just how oblivious do they have to be to ignore such a noisy and flashy cultural event?[/QUOTE] I love using the Kunai, but you got me there, not being able to pick up medkits to heal yourself is aa load of shit.