Major Update Speculation: V8: Rise of the Machines!
10,002 replies, posted
to put it into perspective, if you remove his melees, Demoman has the Booties, the Loch-n-Load, the Scotres, the Targe, the Screen and the Sticky Jumper.
Not exactly the most variety. The Sticky Jumper is probably the most interesting weapon of that bunch.
Compared to Engy who has the Frontier Justice, the Widowmaker, the Pomson, the Wrangler and the Short-Circuit you have a similar amount of weapons, but all (except the SC) provide nice variety and aren't just "+more damage -some other thing." Actually, Engineer probably has the most interesting non-melees of all, there really isn't a single +/- with no other gimmick weapon in his bunch.
Do you really want more demo weapons? Valve can't seem to make anything interesting for the demo besides more melee weapons.
[QUOTE=Rigged237;37389673]Do you really want more demo weapons? Valve can't seem to make anything interesting for the demo besides more melee weapons.[/QUOTE]
this is a whole new group of people, maybe they can do it. Their balance over the last few months has been amazing.
[QUOTE=Rigged237;37389673]Do you really want more demo weapons? Valve can't seem to make anything interesting for the demo besides more melee weapons.[/QUOTE]
Well I imagine this is why they made the workshop.
lot of nice blowie uppy things there.
I don't think the problem is finding cool looking weapons in the workshop. I think it's figuring out stats for them.
Larger splash damage range.
Makes a noise when rolling on the floor.
~10 hp.
doesn't seem hard in my opinion.
[QUOTE=Rigged237;37389744]I don't think the problem is finding cool looking weapons in the workshop. I think it's figuring out stats for them.[/QUOTE]
It's tricky to come up with an idea that doesn't borrow from the Soldier's arsenal. Since the classes are very similar in their design aside from a few key differences, it's increasingly difficult, but may be tolerable if they vary the weapon attributes just right.
They've changed the method of detonation to create the Scottish Resistance.
They've traded damage for mobility to create the Sticky Jumper.
It's not possible to create another method of detonation without it being inherently broken or annoying to use. Things such as proximity mines, bombs that detonate on a timer (those are called grenades), ones that detonate only once you've got the max amount of bombs out already, and ones that detonate upon death. All of those are not involved in their usage, annoying to be on the receiving end, or annoying to use.
Things that they can mess with: shorter arm time, smaller clip size, lower damage against players when stuck to a surface, higher damage when not stuck to a surface, knockback being higher when stuck to a surface.
If I'd want one to mess with, I'd have then try out this:
-3 clip size
-50% damage vs players when stuck to a surface
+100% knockback force when stuck to a surface
+25% damage
Mini-crits airborne targets
Blah blah blah, Demoman's direct hit. At least it's a bit more interesting than making a carbon copy.
a two-three clip proximity mine that made a ridiculous beeping noise would probably not be as annoying as you'd think
What about stickies that slow players as well, but do less damage
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;37389947]a two-three clip proximity mine that made a ridiculous beeping noise would probably not be as annoying as you'd think[/QUOTE]
It'd completely remove the Demoman from the engagement. He just needs to put a mine down and forget about it -- he'll get a bunch of blind kills. Also he would not be able to use them to stickyjump since no enemies are in range to trigger it.
If the thing is noticeable, then wary players will avoid them or disarm them before they can do damage, making the weapons effectively worthless for killing. It'll primarily catch players who do not pay attention at all to their surroundings. If the thing is unnoticeable, then the Demoman will get a bunch of cheap kills without even rubbing brain cells together once he's placed the trap.
It's a lose-lose situation to try to make a fun and balanced proxy mine launcher to replace the sticky launcher.
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;37389947]a two-three clip proximity mine that made a ridiculous beeping noise would probably not be as annoying as you'd think[/QUOTE]
And you expect to kill someone with it how?
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;37389947]a two-three clip proximity mine that made a ridiculous beeping noise would probably not be as annoying as you'd think[/QUOTE]
Or something to the same extentbut using a grenade launcher model.
Rolling pipe bomb are something I like about the grenade launcher so a primary that can reward you for taking advantage of planing the bouncing and rolling of your grenades would be something I would love to see implemented.
[QUOTE=Kapellmeister;37390021]And you expect to kill someone with it how?[/QUOTE]
Have the beeping be subtle, it starts slow and quiet until an enemy gets near. Then it gets loud and fast.
You'd have to lure enemies into the trap or set up to use them to assist player who are chasing spies or scouts.
Also make it able to detect disguissed spies but can't be built near senties
That thing on the workshop a while back that shot 4 rolling nades at once.
It was a thing of beauty.
[QUOTE=Kapellmeister;37390021]And you expect to kill someone with it how?[/QUOTE]
more area denial and slowing down players. If they have to search for, and destroy the mine, they're going to be moving a lot slower and not focusing on the environment.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;37390006]It'd completely remove the Demoman from the engagement. He just needs to put a mine down and forget about it -- he'll get a bunch of blind kills. [/QUOTE]
This is not a foreign concept to TF2 (the entire Engineer class), or even Demoman for that matter (grenade spam)
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;37390095] This is not a foreign concept to TF2 (the entire Engineer class), or even Demoman for that matter (grenade spam)[/QUOTE]
The thing is that this is the Demoman's stickylauncher that you're replacing.
Stickytraps have the potency to kill any class without them ever knowing that it's there because it detonates without warning. Sentries need a line of sight and do not deal intense spike damage, they deal streamed damage. Grenade spam is visible and limited to 4 at a time, it may be spike damage, but it's not enough spike damage to kill every class before they can react to the first hit.
1. Lay stickies on intel
2. Hide in spawn
3. Wait for "Alert, the Enemy Has Taken Out Intelligence"
4. KABOOOOMMM
5. ???
6. Profit
Demoman is really engaged in combat.
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;37390262]1. Lay stickies on intel
2. Hide in spawn
3. Wait for "Alert, the Enemy Has Taken Out Intelligence"
4. KABOOOOMMM
5. ???
6. Profit
Demoman is really engaged in combat.[/QUOTE]
At least he has to be at his computer and paying attention to the game in order to do that. With proxy mines, you can just alt tab to whatever browser of choice and watch youtube videos while you get easy kills. At least with a sentry, people very clearly know where it is, and that shit goes down fast when no one is there to repair it or fend off Spies.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;37390351]At least with a sentry, people very clearly know where it is, and that shit goes down fast when no one is there to repair it or fend off Spies.[/QUOTE]
hence the loud beeping
What about an automatic sticky launcher?
Right click to place a sensor.
Left click to place bombs.
Once the sensor is tripped, the bombs detonate.
To make it balanced, maybe have the sensor emit a beeping noise or glow or something.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;37390156]The thing is that this is the Demoman's stickylauncher that you're replacing.
Stickytraps have the potency to kill any class without them ever knowing that it's there because it detonates without warning. Sentries need a line of sight and do not deal intense spike damage, they deal streamed damage. Grenade spam is visible and limited to 4 at a time, it may be spike damage, but it's not enough spike damage to kill every class before they can react to the first hit.[/QUOTE]
Give it a 50% or so percent or so damage reduction so you have to make twice the coverage for what you'd get with half the default.
or a stick launcher that fires pressure sensitive mines. with the downside of any grouped up mines explode explode in a chain reaction encouraging a player to lay them out far apart from eachother.
While we're on the topic on Stickybomb Launchers:
[code]The Mine Layer - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1270
[+] +20% damage bonus
[+] +0.4 sec faster bomb arm time
[+] Bombs cannot be destroyed regularly
[+] Can auto-detonate with laser sight
[-] -20% explosion radius
[-] -4 max pipebombs out
[-] -35% damage penalty when auto-detonated
[-] Can only detonate while planted
Laser Sight:
- Aims the opposite direction from the surface it's planted at.
- Only appears after the arm time and while being planted.
- Does not detonate for the Demoman who planted them.
Stickybombs:
- Gets knocked back instead of being destroyed.
= When Stickybomb drops, it also disarms the stickybomb for that period of time.
- Can still be destroyed by Scottish Resistance.
Base Damage: 144 / 93.6*
Bomb Arm Time: 0.52s
*When auto-detonated.[/code]
Thoughts? Suggestions? Balanced? Dumb?
[b]Edit:[/b] Alright, so it's dumb, but in that case, could I at least get some suggestions on how to make it [b]less[/b] dumb?
[QUOTE=emmens;37390408]Give it a 50% or so percent or so damage reduction so you have to make twice the coverage for what you'd get with half the default.
[/quote]
Nerfing the crap out of something isn't the best course of action in order to keep a very tricky mechanic in play. The sheer fact that such a nerf is even suggested is based around the fact that proxy mines is not a pretty thing to try to make work.
Quake has a proximity mine launcher, but it is offset by the lack of ammunition that it carries, it's audible beeping, it's glowing, the fact that it can be destroyed by practically every weapon (explosives included), mines only detonating if someone steps directly onto them, they stick to floors only, and they auto detonate after a long enough time; plus the weapon is rather rare to find. To offset these downsides, Quake gives players a ton of weapons to use. The Proxy Mine launcher is primarily a utility when compared to the superior rocketlauncher, grenade launcher, railgun, shotgun, and lightning gun (not to mention the BFG). The weapon is primarily there to force people to stall themselves to avoid the explosions and leave themselves vulnerable to an attack while they are halting their bunnyhop so they can jump over or destroy them.
The primary issue with trying to get this to work on the Demoman is that the stickybomb launcher is almost always the Demoman's primary source of damage dealing. A utility in that slot is awkward to balance -- they got incredibly lucky that the Stickybomb Jumper was rather balanced after they made a few alterations.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;37390583][B]Quake has a proximity mine launcher[/B][/QUOTE]
No, it doesn't. Least vanilla Quake doesn't anyway. You got a point, though.
Don't expect anything today due to i46.
I think proximity mines could work if implemented correctly.
I had an awesome tf2 dream once, the demo got a secondary that gave him spring heels and a primary a lot like [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4hvcPce3UY"]the jackal from tribes[/URL], it wasn't ridiculous like it is in tribes, but he'd jump around blowing shit up.
I always wondered why the gunboats didn't show a on-wearer effect in the loadout screen
Since I mostly play a demo, I'd take a new, crappy explosive weapon than another, unneeded sword.
I got an email from Fletcher about MvM. I'm very very pleased with this!
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Zt9l0.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=CrossNgen;37392247]Since I mostly play a demo, I'd take a new, crappy explosive weapon than another, unneeded sword.[/QUOTE]
I would rather have a good new sword/melee rather than a new crappy explosive weapon.
